Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Marin on June 16, 2016, 05:24:27 pm
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I went I both lowes and Home Depot and this is the best board I could find. It has a good grain but it has a slight runoff near the end. I know I can get a bow out of it but it has to backed. I know I probably shouldn't do a sinew backing (as it is red oak) but I thought it might be interesting to try and do a cordage backing with nylon cord. Before I do that I have a couple of question: can I even make a short, cordage backed bow from red oak that still has a good draw weight? Do I apply the cordage backing before tillering (like sinew) or after? And if I do it before, to what draw length do I tiller it to?
Thanks
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A good Red Oak board will make a self bow without the assistance of any kind of backing, ...but if you are determined to use a backing, there are much better options than nylon cord. Nylon stretches too much and too easily to be of much value as a backing material. Also, Nylon is not a very primitive material and is only half a step removed from F#@$%*glass as a backing.
I've used Silk cloth over Red Oak and liked the results. Raw hide is a pretty good backing on a Red Oak bow as well. I've used really thin (aka CHEAP) goat raw hide on Red Oak before. Also, I've used Sisal fibers harvested out of cheap sisal twine from Wally World which I thought worked well.
I hear that Jute fiber works well, but I've not yet tried it. Others that I have not yet tried, but read about others using are Denim, Brown Paper bag, and even Duct Tape! (shakes head in disbelief...)
Red Oak is quite strong in Tension and is not likely to really need a backing at all as it is considerably more likely to fail in compression than tension. You may even find yourself wanting to Trap the back of your Red Oak! :)
...but a backing can buy you some comfort in feeling that your slight bit of grain run-out is at least supported somewhat by the backing. Keep in mind, if your run-out is toward the end of the bow any way, it may actually be cut out as you layout your front profile.
OneBow
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I've made several. Both backed and un backed. The only failures I have had were due to poor judgement on layout, and not due to the wood its self. I have another that some will scoff at that is just about done. I have backed with linen, and denim. Both worked fine.
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I am not determined to use a backing I was just afraid as my wood has runoff on it that it would need a backing to be a functional bow. I thought of nylon because I read an article made by Dick Baugh who was trying to replicate the intuit cordage bows with cheaper materials.
I am curious though, when backing with say linen from a shirt, do you just cut it into strips and glue those strips to the back of the bow overlapping?
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Anybody know how to post pics? I can't seem to figure it out and I want to show a picture of my board. It says the file size is too big.
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I use the app simple resize, take it down to around 600x400, free and simple
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Here we go
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Photo of side and front
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Front
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If you need better pics, tell me
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that looks pretty good to me,, I like to back mine,, as stated not necessary,, I like to overbuild my board bows as well,,just a little longer or wider sometime,, I think linen canvas would work, you can get it at the art store,,,,,unprimed,,,
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Yeah, I think I'll back mine with either linen or jute(from burlap sack) just because of the slight runoff. It's one of my first bows so I don't want to risk it. will that add any weight to the bow?
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what does the side grain look like? That is as critical as the back grain.
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The side grain is pretty straight but what you don't see I the picture is that one grain near the side seems to run onto the board and then runoff. It is he reason why I feel I should back it with something.
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That looks like a pretty primo RO board to me. I've made unbacked red oakies out of worse. I vote no backing.
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I also vote no backing. that looks like pretty good material. Show us a pic of the grain run out. As mentioned above it may be eliminated if you are careful with layout.
How wide is that board?
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I tried to paracord (nylon) back a bamboo bow and it was WAY too stretchy, the loop was 2-3 inches short and it still barely had any tension after I put it on
Polyester may work well
I have a 70-75lbs ringing rocks archery 62" bow that has tons of runoff on the back. Was thinking about rawhide but I have sisal from rope and paper grocery bags, as well as hide glue. The thing is.. plant fiber doesn't stretch?
Thinking I'll introduce set into that bow on purpose to reduce chances of breakage.
There is this... ... http://www.ottomanturkishbows.com/2012/03/pre-stressed-leather-application-method.html
leather is expensive though
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What are the dimensions? From what I can see I'd make a selfbow out of that in a heartbeat. A little runout here and there is survivable.
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The worst you have to worry about is grain runout on the side and back TOGETHER. Basically, a growthring terminates right on the corner of the back of the limb meeting the side of the limb. You could wrap that spot with a heavy thread, then rub glue into the thread to lock it in place. Start a half inch minimum from the runout and go at least a half inch past it.
The time to do this is after you have started tillering but well before you are into the final tillering. By waiting until you are halfway done to do the wrap, you end up leaving that little bit of the limb stiffer than the rest of the limb....but not excessively so.
I like the grain shown in the photos. I have made bows with wood that was MUCH worse. Now get to work on that "aggressively de-crowned dimensional stave" and be sure to post lots of pictures as you go. Some of us can't read but we like to look at the pretty pictures! >:D
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Marin I don't know if you herd of a book called The Bent Stick by Paul Comstock ,It's advertised in PA magazine but that book & that board would get you a serviceable bow in a week end or two ,Paul tends to over build bows slightly , and gives you all dimentions & directions to build it ,I built my first board bow that didn't blow up on me out of it but then again learned a lot by blowing up a couple of bows !
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This might help you www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php
As well as jawges site it has a wealth of knowledgehttp://traditionalarchery101
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I think someone asked for some more pics of the side grain runoff. Here's a pic. Sorry, I was gone camping for 2 days
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Another one
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If the pics aren't good, I'll just explain that the runoff is gentle and usually the grain that runs off comes back onto the board a couple of inches down (the grain is squiggly). Yeah it's kind of weird, but the rest of the grains look,straight. Now, if you guys think I can make an I backed bow with runoff like this, I'll try it. Thanks for recommending that Comostock book. I'll definitely get it.
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How wide is the board? Its about 3 inches in width and 10 feet long .
Also, bubbles, what do you mean you've made board bows or of things worse than this? Did you fix the problem by cutting the runoff outmost he board or some other way? I mean is there way for me to get rid of the runoff? Can I use a table saw to perhaps cut off the edge?
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10 ft long?! At my short draw length, could make 2 bows. What draw weight ya looking for and at what draw length?
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Yeah, I know I can make 2 bows. I just hope I can at least get one good one.
I think I am looking for about 45 lb draw weight at 28 inches. Could I make a shorter draw length? Is that just personal preference? Also, just curious, do you guys measure draw weight using a luggage scale?
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I have made a board bow with grain worse then that I think it would work for you at your weight and draw particularly if you made a bend threw the handle bow maybe leave it long and a little wide for your first one I think Brad mentioned a little over built especially with red oak good luck ! I know it can be a little nerve racking to make your first bow but there's no other way to do it other then doing your research & jump in , I broke a couple of bows learning ,I'm still learning ,but by doing that and sticking with it I got a couple of good bows I'm just trying to encourage you to give it a go ,Jawge has a good build a long on here that has the bow I'm talking about.
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take and make the bow 2" wide at the fades straight taper to 1/2" tips to start. The handle fade area draw a line marking the center of the bow make the bow 68" long so make a mark at 34" , 2" each side of the center mark for a 4" grip 1-1/4" wide at the center and 1" at the 2" marks. Make the limbs a even taper of 7/16" thick the length of each limb and work from there. You can check out my easy board bow build a long in the how to section. Good luck!!
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Stick Bender,
You mean you have made an unbacked board bow with a grain worse than this?
Wow, good for you. But seriously, i can counteract this side runoff by making a wide bow?
I'm already drawing up a desing and about to cut but just want to be sure.
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It's not that difficult to get decent hickory or oak staves at around 10 to 20 bucks each, if you are willing to by a log for $100 from a local mill.
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Drew up a design tonight. How does it look?
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I was curious about the belly cross section. I heard a slightly rounded belly makes it easy to tiller. What do you guys think of the idea? Should I keep the belly flat or slightly rounded?Also, do the dimensions all look fine? I based it off of the dimensions bubby gave me. Also, bubby, where is your board bow build along? Can't find it
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Also, bubby, where is your board bow build along? Can't find it
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.0.html
I think it should be stickied :p but it isn't..
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That looks about right, i would keep the belly flat but with nice radius's on the corners it will appear slightly rounded
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Red Oak is Tension strong as a bow wood, so you'll likely want to keep the belly as flat as possible. Certainly radius the corners, but the rounded belly you have drawn would likely NOT be good for Red Oak. When you round the belly, only the wood fibers nearest to the peak of your curve are engaged in holding the maximum compression strain. ...which would be counter to the nature of this particular bow wood.
If that doesn't quite make sense, let me know and I'll make another run at trying to explain what I mean... ;)
OneBow
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One wonder,
I think I understand what you are saying. I should round over the edges but not to much as red oak cannot handle compression as well when the force is concentrated in a particular area (which would occur if I had a rounded belly). Correct?
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Bubby,
Saw your board bow build along and noticed that you had runoff on your board also at was slight (like mine). So even if you have a slight runoff on either the sides of the board or the front of the board, you can still make an unbacked bow so long as you keep the limbs wide enough?
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I think there was some rule of thumb like max 4 runoffs in the entire bow
http://traditionalarchery101.com/boards.html hmm
I think it'd make more sense to trap the back? that is, make the back narrower than the belly
and leave the belly pretty flat, this would make it so the back doesn't overpower the belly?
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One wonder,
I think I understand what you are saying. I should round over the edges but not to much as red oak cannot handle compression as well when the force is concentrated in a particular area (which would occur if I had a rounded belly). Correct?
You said it better than I could! Thanx, and yes... -OneBow
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Do I need to trap the back? I can if I must but I don't think my bows runoff is more than 4 and I don't have good enough tools to trap it.
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Do you have to trap it, no, is it a good idea, wouldn't hurt. I don't know what kind of tools you have but you can do it with just some 36 grit sandpaper and a block of wood or a sanding block
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Do you have to trap it, no, is it a good idea, wouldn't hurt. I don't know what kind of tools you have but you can do it with just some 36 grit sandpaper and a block of wood or a sanding block
Could a rasp raise splinters? I don't think so.. and it'd probably be faster
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Rasp or file will work
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OK, time to stop the writin' and start the doin'. Will be cool to watch your progress. Good luck!
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Yeah I have a rasp, I ll try doing it. I'll tell you how it goes.