Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Will Carothers on June 25, 2012, 06:27:38 pm
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Decided to finally take the leap into warbow making. For my first, i chose to do a hickory backed massaranduba (forgive the spelling) for i hear that massa is very similar to ipe, and some say it is better. (i also could get it much cheaper, it also has a prettier color in my opinion) The "masa" i found is very straight grained, but is only 45 inches long, so i plan to do a splice, which is where i need help, ive seen z splices and such on lighter bows but for a heavy bow (~80#-90#) im not sure what to use.
I also want to do a center lam of walnut or cherry, that would actually be mopre like an extended powerlam as the only lams of these woods are 72" long, and the bow i hope to end up being about 75-76" ntn. so do you believe it is doable if the lam is tapered? im also thinking of a short (and thin) powerlam between the core lam and belly to add some contrast and help with tillering as i like a handle that is just a little bulkier, and that bends just a little bit.
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff513/willcarothers/ed39e436.jpg)
Here is the wood im working with. Anybody have ideas on dimensions, for the weight, and/or tips on how to accomplish the tapering of lams?
Thanks, the help is greatly appreciated!
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Well done Will you will learn a lot just getting stuck in.
For the splice although I have never done it, I have seen plenty of heavy bows with a z splice belly, it's all about getting well mated surfaces and using the correct glue. I would recommend if you can get it Resorcional which is good for oily woods like Massa and will hold the joint strong.
I don't bother with powerlams and for a first bow it will be more of a burden than its worth.
What sort of power tools do you have and how long is that Hickory board.
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A w splice may be easier for you in this case and slightly stronger than a z spalice. Just draw out a "W" on a pice of paper, cut it oput with a razor blade and glue it to your wood, then cut it out right on the lines without damaging the paper and you will have a perfect joint. You will still need to squeeze it togetr wioth clamps.
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In fact there is a video of the very thing, we can't post links so go on youtube and search for Bickerstaffe bows video 3 and it shows how he does joints.
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Im sorry, what i meant to say was its my first really heavy bow, ive made bows for a few years now, my heaviest being a 65# osage flatbow i just finished. And ive sone power lams on a few bows and they look great.
For this build im using weldwood plastic resin glue which is technically a urea formaldehyde glue very similar to urac 185. but much cheaper.
I have referred to pip bickerstaffe's build along many times on previous bows, but those were only 50#, so i thought a different type of splice would be more suitable
Im only 15, so im hoping my muscles can adapt to higher and higher bow weights pretty fast, my goal is to shoot about 120-150# by new years
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This will be something good to read. Will work for what you need 80-100#
http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/5405/Tri-lam-elb-buildalong-with-lots-of-pics?page=1
George
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And the hickory board is 7 ft, so i have more than enough, i know a woodworker who has been really helpful, and lets me use his many tools (bandsaw, tablesaw, electric hand plane, beltsander, drum/spindle sander, and surface planer)
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Just make sure your splice is perfect and it will be fine. Like Badger said the w splice is the strongest. Although hornbows use v splices,collogen glue and no clamps...If your splice isn't perfect before gluing - steam it for 20 mins and then clamp together until cool.
Your hickory boards grain doesn't look the best for heavy bows. Maybe cut it so the rings aren't feathering so much if you can.
Some of the longbows I make for people have powerlams and can work really well (look nice), but make them thin. 2mm thick in the center is all thats needed or else the taper will be too steep to blend it well.
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thanks for the input, its hard to tell but on the sides, the grain is really straight and has only 1 runoff the whole length of the board. I'm also going to try a lighter 50# flatbow, with the center portion with the feathering, but with how thick the board is, and how straight the side grain is, i should be able to chase a ring.
My idea for tapering is to do it almost like some hand plane arrow shaft tapers. I think i'll mark the center of the core and every 12 inches away i will make a mark, then use a electric hand plane to take down the first mark, then the 2nd, then the third, on each side to give me an even taper, and repeat the process until the end feathers out.
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I personally wouldnt use that piece of hickory in a heavy bow. Grain run off is way more important on the back than the sides. Hickory is tough,but im not sure its that tough for a heavy bow,and since i wood not have 100% faith in it,i then wouldnt use it.
If it can be returned and or exchanged for a better board,i then wood advise in doing so. Just my personal opinion and what i wood do.
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i understand what your saying, but i looked at the board and i can cut it to were there are no grain runouts at all, so i think it will work, if i cut it to where it follows the grain
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The hickory board you have appears flat sawn, all the V's that are formed by the grain are places it can break. Is the board thick enough to chase a ring on?
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The board is flat sawn, and i probably could chase a ring, but on both sides of the v's
the grain is very straight, so i was planning on using that as the backing
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But the board was cut on a pretty far off angle from the lateral grain....thats why you see the heartwood at the bottom and not the top. Meaning it wasnt cut up straight along with the way the trunk grew up. Might work ok for lower weight bows,but i would not fully trust it and have faith in it for a heavy bow.
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All right i see what your saying, what do you think is the heaviest safe bow i could get out of this? im not sure, but i would hope i could get maybe 80# if the bow is longer than i planned, let me know what you think. I got this from the closest lumberyard which was about 3 hours away, and im only fifteen, so the times i can go is pretty limited, so i was hoping this board would work, but oh well, haha
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The hickory board isn't too bad, but I certainly won't use it for a warbow. It's the midlimb-to-be area that bothers me most, the transition from heartwood to sapwood has about eight run offs short after one another. If this were in the handle, or near the tip, you could be fine, but it's risky in the midlimb. I wouldn't dare giving you a maximum safe heaviest weight, simply because wood isn't that predictable (unfortunately). You may just get away with a 100# bow, but I would not feel comfortable with that grain for anything over 50 pounds.
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i understand, i think the person whose tools i use would be willing to trade this board for a pecan or hickory he may have, if he has one with straighter grain.
here is my last ditch effort, what if i cut to these lines
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff513/willcarothers/dda3bc5d.jpg)
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff513/willcarothers/c8f1dd7d.jpg)(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff513/willcarothers/b0748122.jpg)
Even though it would end short of the board, i would still have 78 inches of rectangle board, and on this section drawn out there are barely any runnouts. I don't know if this would work, but i think it is similar to what is mentioned is mentioned in TBB V2 in bows from boards, about how to true a board to the trees original surface.
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I would have risked it with grain. I will make two lams(1/8")for back and I will stick them in this way.
(http://prikachi.com/images/100/4956100r.jpg)
George
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here is my last ditch effort, what if i cut to these lines
Even though it would end short of the board, i would still have 78 inches of rectangle board, and on this section drawn out there are barely any runnouts.
Wrong! You may be cutting along the rings (not grain) in one dimension, but the grain is still not straight in the other dimension. It's hard to explain in words, but you have to visualize the board was cut from a round log that would create such rings. There is no possible way it could be cut by giving you those V-shaped run offs in the centre of the board, while the edges would have straight grain. My bet is that you can see the run offs on the SIDES on that board even better. Surface those edges to see what I mean.
No way you can cut a straight grained piece out of that board unless you can chase a ring (but there's probably too many run offs in that board to leave you enough thickness after chasing a ring).
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I would be surprised if the Hickory failed, I have seen much worse survive just fine.
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Thank you Ian, ha ha, i mean i haven't use hickory in heavier bows than 60# yet, but ive used horrible looking hickory and its made it, but i don't know
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I have seen a very well know bowyers attempt a single growth ring Hickory back and leave ring violations up the entire length of the bow and that bow survived and is shooting today. I have used Hickory on heavy bows (well over 100lb) that have had knots and run off's, all stiff going strong.
Yes it may break, buts isn't it worth a go?
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I think ill go for it, but maybe make it 78" instead of 74", and what do all of you think of massaranduba as a belly wood, and my plan on tapering a core
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A couple of years ago I made a couple of hickory backed massarandubas and they are great shooters, one of them is 50# and the other is 65 or 70#( cant remember for sure). Massaranduba is a great belly wood and pretty similar to ipe as far as compression strength and workability.
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i just thought of a solution to the backing question, i had bought some ash at the same time but that was going to be for arrows, but the grain along the sides is really straight, and im almost positive i could chase a ring on it, what about this kind of backing, the grain on the face is pretty straight too, but i would think a chased ring would maybe give me some more assurance, another problem with the hickory though, it is warped into reflex, so im not sure how i would even cut backing strips if i wanted. I'm thinking a bandsaw may work because of the smaller blade, but im not sure?