Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: PatM on March 09, 2018, 03:20:37 pm
-
Which do you prefer for processing?
-
Don't you kind of have to do both? I mean, I have simply pounded and shredded, but when soaked, I have to do some decent pounding, too, just on a softer pestle.
But, I'm a sinew novice, so I'll check back.
-
Pounding....don't know how to work soaked?
DBar
-
Most of it you can just split it with your fingernail and once you split it each time gets even easier. The benefit is you don't waste any with run-out or weakened fibers from beating it.
It also separates with half the effort.
-
Well that's interesting.I usually pound it while dry then seperate it.What about the chaffy skin that can be on it?Then your way after seperating it's used right away?
-
Most of it you can just split it with your fingernail and once you split it each time gets even easier. The benefit is you don't waste
any with run-out or weakened fibers from beating it.
It also separates with half the effort.
You mean All I have to do is soak the dried deer leg sinew and I can split it with a finger nail and pull it apart..??? This is a good topic.
Do you soak it in just tap water and how long?
DBar
-
Yeah, it will pull right apart Soak it overnight and it usually hydrates enough. I use soapy water as it "wets" better and starts the degreasing process. Any chaffy skin will mostly separate with the soak and flake free as you separate.
Ed. You can dry the strands and just re-wet them as needed.
I actually have some sinew that has been re-used through some experimental bows about 4 -5 times over the last 17 years.
-
I pound my leg sinew and process it during slow times at work. I'm not sure soaking would work in my situation. I don't have a problem with the work required to separate it. It occupies my time.
-
@PatM....I'm all for trying new stuff. I've got some dried leg sinew and will give it a try. You know I'll report back.....:)
Thanks,
DBar
-
I just went down to the shop and took 12 to 18 cleaned dried deer leg sinew and sumurged it in tap water with a little Dawn soap. Well see what happens in the morning. I'll report back sometime tomorrow.
Thanks PatM
DBar
-
If you don't have sufficient fingernails you can also just poke a screwdriver through the center and get it started and then go from there. I use an awl in each hand sometimes.
You should like the results.
-
Thanks PatM ... got NO fingernails, but will work with what I have on hand.
Thanks.
DBar
-
Cool DBar.... (-P You don't have a spare hackberry in mind do you???
Thanks for sharing that Pat.It's something I could kick myself for not trying that it's probably so much easier.
I've got some rock hard long elk and moose leg tendons I'm afraid might take more than a day to soften up.Think I'd start out with warm water at first.
-
Does it make that tangle at the "Y" any easier to deal with?
-
Does it make that tangle at the "Y" any easier to deal with?
Yes, I've noticed you can strip the fibers right through those sections with much less binding. You will still find the cartilaginous parts have to be removed and discarded but soaking makes those spots much more clearly defined.
-
I'm going to let it set until I get done caulking the kitchen counter, but all I can promise I'll report back on my findings by this time tomorrow....
DBar
-
I have never tried it wet. Might be worth a try.
-
Soaking sounds easier and safer, if you keep your fingers out of the path of the awl! I'll be trying it that way! There could be a lot of sinew available next fall.
Hawkdancer
-
I started with pounding and shredding. Nowadays I soak over night and tear apart with two tools (a grip with a curved hooks mounted) while the sinew is piked on a big nail which is clamped in the vice.
-
Back sinew, so neither I guess :)
-
That is a new one on me Pat, I will have to give it a try. I actually traded off or gave away all my collection of sinew because with my arthritic hands it was too much of a chore to process it. I had 26 back strap pieces and untold pieces of leg sinew.
I have a few pieces of leg sinew from last year and will give the soaking method a try.
-
Very interested in the results of soaking. I have some elk sinew that I've been neglecting because it is so hard to work. I usually resort to 2 small vice grips to pull it apart after pounding. So after soaking it and pulling apart do you just lay it out on towels to let it dry? Or is there a better way to dry it?
-
Back sinew, so neither I guess :)
Don't know if you mean me, Chris.
I never had and used back strap sinew, I always use leg sinew (from diff. animals).
The advantage of the soaking method is (as Pat mentioned already) you get a very homogenous length and quality of the fibers with no waste (as like from the shredding method). This was a really giant step for better sinew quality.
-
Hey Guys, I won't do any pounding anymore!
Working it wet is much easier, better quality, very little waste, and less damaging to the sinew than pounding.
I can see where a little longer fingernails would help. :)
Thanks PatM for the suggestion.
DBar
-
(-P Good news D Bar.Can a person use his pocket knife it get it started to being pulled in half length wise?I'll be sure to try it too on my next sinew job.The sinew guru strikes again!!!!
-
Sure a pocket knife would work. But most of it I was able to pull it apart with what little fingernails I have.
-
I'm thinkin' a couple of small hooks might be the ticket.
-
A pair of small needle nose pliers work for me on a couple of tougher pieces.
-
Is there a difference between fresh and soaked as far as this is concerned?
-
Never tried fresh.............
-
I doubt it.You want all oil off etc. before using it too.
-
Is there a difference between fresh and soaked as far as this is concerned?
The drying and then reconstituting it with water seems to do something to it that allows the separation to be easier. Hard to say what that is but any natural product dried once and then wet again doesn't return to its original state. Doesn't matter if that's wood, rawhide, sinew or raisins.
-
sounds like a great idea, I will give it a try on some sinew soon, (SH)
bowers bible #4 talks about Ishi making bow string by chewing fresh tendon and pulling apart,, or if the tendon was dry soakng it in warm water before chewing and teasing apart,,
-
One of my issues with leg sinew vs. back sinew (besides its labor intensiveness in processing) is that the processed leg pieces seem thinner and weaker, where as my back sinew is stronger and of higher quality.
Is this just because i've been pounding the leg sinew with a hammer instead of soaking it like mentioned here. Or is back sinew still going to be a superior finished product?
-
It's the pounding that degrades it. Leg sinew is every bit as strong if not stronger than back sinew but the undoubted greater cross linking of the fibres causes destruction of the main fibres when processing.
Water softening lets you pop those cross links apart much easier and your leg sinew will look just like back sinew strands.
-
+1.
-
It's the pounding that degrades it. Leg sinew is every bit as strong if not stronger than back sinew but the undoubted greater cross linking of the fibres causes destruction of the main fibres when processing.
Water softening lets you pop those cross links apart much easier and your leg sinew will look just like back sinew strands.
Outstanding, cant wait to try the soaking method. What is your preferred method for degreasing it as well as possible? Do you just wash it with soap? Ive heard both good and bad on the use of bleach.
-
Dawn dish soap. and rinsing well. No need for bleach at all. It's of dubious use as a degreaser and probably does as much to break down protein molecules, which is the last thing you want.
-
I'm believer now.
I just did the soak method on two little front leg tendons. I was kind of amazed at the quality and quantity that came out of them.
The difficult part, on these particular ones, was separating the sleeve. I had to slice it down the center then pull thw tendons out. Also decided that a couple pairs of needle nose pliers comes in real handy till you get rhw tendons broke down in to smaller pieces. From there a plastic backed thumb tack separates the fibers real well in a pinch.
I'll try some larger rear leg elk tendons next.
-
Gonna have to give this method a try. Thanks Pat for yet another sinew tip
-
I find it’s best to remove the casing on leg sinew before soaking, which requires just a little bit of pounding, not much. Anyone who tries this will never pound leg sinew again.
-
here is an account of sinew & prep I have been trying to locate,
go to page 13 for the bow and arrow stuff
https://digital.libraries.ou.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/BatteyTC/id/300
-
I can't open that Willie. Do we have to modify it in any way?
-
I think it should work, after a while maybe. the server is not responding at the time I tried it again.
-
Mason's book is available at the online archery library.
-
Pat, the link should go to a page at the University of OK where you can down load "The Ray Collection from the Hupa Reservation" It has some additional details about the bow building Ray documented when he was there, among with other facets of Hupa culture.
The blue "download" button in the upper right lets you retrieve the complete paper.
-
I got it now, Willie, thanks
-
Pg 12 is the one you want
-
Well, ima hafta try this too. I have just benn pulling it apart dry without pounding it at all. I found twisting it a bunch like you wpuld if you were trying to snap a green twig, works the fibers loose well enough to pull them out. If doing it wet works, i may just do my twist, worjing it good, then soak and pull.
-
A great way for not much waste for a wood bow. For a high stressed composite horn bow I would not use it as the closed fibers are not as able to accept the glue.
-
Speculation or experience?
-
It's a good point Chuck.You might have some experience you speak from.You bust and strip more sinew than most anyone on here.Another fellow Adam Karpowicz has busted his fair share too.He states the only reason to not use backstrap is because he thinks it can be too course.The prepared leg sinew prepared from the wet method then dried will be close to the same state of courseness as dryed loin sinew.Stripped leg sinew dry is fluffy and angel hair like of course.
But if it's an absorbtion of glue issue I soak leg sinew dry stripped in water padded dry before dipping it into the glue.Making a few extremely reflexed bows myself I have had no issues of seperation.That's on wood though too.Horn is a different animal like the type bows you make.
If I used backstrap sinew in the past I usually soak it in very warm water to plump it up properly before using it.I will do the same thing with very warm water of this wet stripped and dried leg sinew.
-
Is there any evidence that warm glue will not penetrate into tendon fibers that have not been pounded?
-
I just sinew backed a wood bow last week with soaked sinew, not pounded.
It soaked up the glue ok. My sinew was wet processed about 90%, then finished stripping
dry. Anyone interested should just try this out for themselves.
-
There it is.Good luck wizardgoat.
Sometimes evidence of white streaks in the sinew backing while drying in the past has been blamed for too thin of glue usage.Could be not proper absorbtion of glue also into the sinew or a combination of both.
-
Pat and Ed, it is just speculation on my part. I just don't like to take chances on a bow that takes 8 months. That's why I only use back sinew for the last layers of backing after a good cleaning in dish soap on these bows. I may work fine.
-
Is there any evidence that warm glue will not penetrate into tendon fibers that have not been pounded?
Is there any evidence that glue actually penetrates into fibers? Most adhesives depend on surface bonding, penetration is a bit of a myth. good surface prep is the key.
-
I can totally understand your reasoning Chuck.
-
Is there any evidence that warm glue will not penetrate into tendon fibers that have not been pounded?
Is there any evidence that glue actually penetrates into fibers? Most adhesives depend on surface bonding, penetration is a bit of a myth. good surface prep is the key.
Tendon fibers, yes.
-
Is there any evidence that warm glue will not penetrate into tendon fibers that have not been pounded?
Is there any evidence that glue actually penetrates into fibers? Most adhesives depend on surface bonding, penetration is a bit of a myth. good surface prep is the key.
Tendon fibers, yes.
I agree. Im no where near the bowyer most of you are, so I hate to chime in. I think warm hide glue completely saturates thin sinew strips. An easy test would be to soak strips in hide glue, let dry then cut in half crosswise and see how deep it penetrated.
As far as the actual bow surface, I doubt the glue penetrates more than a sheet of paper deep.
-
Mounter- You may be right about the bow surface but Willie- the glue and sinew form a more and more complex pattern of bonds over the course of months and even over a year. That is the reason I'd rather use shredded lofty sinew for highly stressed design.
I am however soaking some sinews to jump on this wet splitting fad. I've only used it for thicker handle wraps and such. Some California tribes used this method and who knows how many more. Pounding and shredding has just been the "way" to do it since the first how to book came out on backing bows in modern times.
-
There's a rat in separate
-
Mounter- You may be right about the bow surface but Willie- the glue and sinew form a more and more complex pattern of bonds over the course of months and even over a year. That is the reason I'd rather use shredded lofty sinew for highly stressed design.
I am however soaking some sinews to jump on this wet splitting fad. I've only used it for thicker handle wraps and such. Some California tribes used this method and who knows how many more. Pounding and shredding has just been the "way" to do it since the first how to book came out on backing bows in modern times.
That is still up for debate as to how much increased complexity of bonds happens. I believe I remember reading that the molecules need a certain amount of moisture content to do their thing so long seasoning may have been a matter of moisture cycling allowing this to happen even though dry periods likely made things inert for a while.
I do think fluffy sinew isn't as strong as it could be due to the actual collagen being somewhat mutilated.
Obviously it gets patched back together in the matrix but more intact unidirectional fibers is always beneficial in either this scenario or when making string.
-
That is still up for debate as to how much increased complexity of bonds happens. I believe I remember reading that the molecules need a certain amount of moisture content to do their thing so long seasoning may have been a matter of moisture cycling allowing this to happen even though dry periods likely made things inert for a while.
Mason quoting Ray...
"The bow-makers of both the Hupa and Klamath tribes," says Ray, "are specialists, and the trade is now confined to a very few old men. I have here seen no man under 40 years of age that could make a bow or an arrow, and only one old man who could make a stone arrow-head.
"To make a bow, the wood of a yew sapling 2 1/2 to 3 inches in diameter is selected and rough-hewn to shape, the heart side inward and the back carefully smoothed to the form of the back of the bow. The sinew is laid on while the wood is green and held in place until dry by means of a twine wrapping. In this condition it is hung in the sweat house until the wood is thoroughly seasoned,
Did these tribes make bows not only for their own use, but have an industry for exchange/ barter? ie, specialists?
The sinew was placed on green yew?
Does "sweat house" imply a slower or damper curing environment than not in the sweathouse? Steam heat? Isn't it quite damp already, west of the cascades in Humbolt county?
-
wilie, what's your current preferred method?
-
No preference here, although I asked a similar question a while back with an eye towards the future prep. Seems reasonable to not dry it so hard if not necessary.
If pounded until fluffy works better for a particular application, then so be it.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,61584.msg860925.html#msg860925
-
I actually meant method of application and glue choice. Probably should have been on the other thread.
-
Mounter- You may be right about the bow surface but Willie- the glue and sinew form a more and more complex pattern of bonds over the course of months and even over a year. That is the reason I'd rather use shredded lofty sinew for highly stressed design.
I am however soaking some sinews to jump on this wet splitting fad. I've only used it for thicker handle wraps and such. Some California tribes used this method and who knows how many more. Pounding and shredding has just been the "way" to do it since the first how to book came out on backing bows in modern times.
Has anyone used this newer method since this discussion from a few years back?
Or maybe tried it but went back to the older pounding it dry method?
-
Mounter- You may be right about the bow surface but Willie- the glue and sinew form a more and more complex pattern of bonds over the course of months and even over a year. That is the reason I'd rather use shredded lofty sinew for highly stressed design.
I am however soaking some sinews to jump on this wet splitting fad. I've only used it for thicker handle wraps and such. Some California tribes used this method and who knows how many more. Pounding and shredding has just been the "way" to do it since the first how to book came out on backing bows in modern times.
Has anyone used this newer method since this discussion from a few years back?
Or maybe tried it but went back to the older pounding it dry method?
Willie. I don’t want to hijack orig post here but I have tried the wet sinew processes method or at least my version of it. The negative for me was that I didn’t know the dry weight for each limb. I guess it can still be measured wet and sorted out later to some degree but the actual dry weight is very important to me and having a better prediction of poundage increase and added mass. Mass is a bigger deal then we sometimes account for. With dry clean sinew that’s been pre combed brushed and separated into measured bundles it’s easier to predict how it will react and marry or fuse to the bow. Mass is also known when working with dry. The bow I did with wet processed worked out fine but I had to estimate the amount of sinew was added to the bow in the end. So in the end for me the dry process is my preferred method for this reason. I suspect that if wet method done often enough one would get a pretty good idea after some time to know how much mass is added when all said and done. I’ve also tried to wet process sinew and dry it again after washed and combed. This actually wasted more time for me. I had to Re weight it all but it was hard to do as it dried very hard and virtually impossible to separate into fine hairs. I think doing so would rupture and cause breakage if forced. I ended up storing it dry for a different project down the road. Anyway just my experience with the two methods of that helps.
-
My hands hurt bad now when I process dry sinew. Wet method here I come, and if it works for me I will never look back. Any thing to make the job easier.
-
My hands hurt bad now when I process dry sinew. Wet method here I come, and if it works for me I will never look back. Any thing to make the job easier.
Bassman. I too find it hard on the hands. I like the steel dog brushes. It helps to get it separated easier. I put on in my vice too and use two hands to pull it through the stiff brush if that makes sense. It helps on the labour intensive part of it a bit.
-
Dave 95 even the four pound beater part hurts . Being 75 years old doesn't help either.