Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: willie on April 21, 2018, 05:35:09 pm
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any recommendations finding for tonkin?
thanks
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willie, I don't have a real source for Tonkin bamboo, but plain old moso planks from franksupply.com have never let me down. They have a lot of different stuff, and the staff is pretty knowledgeable if you need to phone them.
I think trade names get in the way with bamboo, like they do with tropical woods.
From what I understand, tonkin cane is a very small diameter, tough, straight-sided, small node bamboo (or relative).
Tonkin bamboo (capital "T") is a strong bamboo that comes from the Gulf of Tonkin area. Not sure the actual species, but my memory tells me it is most similar to Taiwan Bamboo. Both are larger diameter and much thicker-walled than Moso. Taiwan bamboo is used whole for highrise scaffolds in Taiwan.
What Frank Suppluy calls "Calcutta" bamboo is also called "tropical bamboo" by other dealers and has almost no hollow center. Another specie called "tre-gai" is a lot the same, close in size, more hollow, but still a really thick wall.
I bought what Three Rivers Archery called a Tonkin Bamboo backing for my first few backings, but when I bought from franksupply.com, it looked, felt, and worked exactly the same. I wouldn't be afraid to use any decent diameter bamboo (Tonkin, Taiwan, Black, Tortoise shell, or Moso) for a back, but would maybe look for thicker-walled specie for a belly.
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Real Tonkin is not actually that common as a selected bow material. " The bamboo broker" was the go to supplier for bamboo flyrod making. That's probably as good as you're likely to find but you have to buy a fair amount. The guy who ran it unfortunately passed and his widow has tried to keep things going but it seems like a bit of a struggle.
I'm lucky to have a premium bamboo supplier of all types close by.
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Genuine Tonkin cane, that fly rod makers use is really only suited to for backing narrow limb bows, like English longbows. Its the strongest in regard to use as a backing. Other bamboo named Tonkin is just a marketing ploy trying to cash in on Tonkin canes reputation. I don't think its necessarily any one species of bamboo, but they come in diameters too large for real Tonkin. What is marketed as "Tonkin bamboo" could be any number of other types of different bamboos, some suited for backing and others not so much.
Tonkin has also been used as a laminated belly timber. I guess planed laminated Tonkin could be used for a backing as well, if it was carefully made like a fly rod, with flattened nodes, that were staggered to reduce potential weak spots. Its hard to find information on how historical examples were made. Most of the information comes from shooters rather than bowyers. Sometimes they mention no specific type of backing, possibly like fly rod makers use. Sometimes they mention a hickory backing, or a conventionally backed with a full strip like we do these days. These bows were made in the 19th and early 20thC and had a very high reputation, for bows made from natural, woody type materials.
Madake or Japanese timber bamboo, was used for Yumi, Japanese bamboo bows. I also think it was the type of boo that Howard hill used for laminations. Howard made some bamboo backed bows but quickly went on to fibreglass, as a backing and as a belly facing.
I have some Madake that is just dried after nearly a year but haven't had the opportunity to do much bow building this year. Madake has noticably less pronounced nodes than Moso. It should be good for wider backed flat bows, as it grows to a larger diameter than Tonkin.
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Carson has a ton of the nicest boo backing available.
Hit up echo archery website.
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Genuine Tonkin cane, that fly rod makers use is really only suited to for backing narrow limb bows, like English longbows. Its the strongest in regard to use as a backing. Other bamboo named Tonkin is just a marketing ploy trying to cash in on Tonkin canes reputation. I don't think its necessarily any one species of bamboo, but they come in diameters too large for real Tonkin. What is marketed as "Tonkin bamboo" could be any number of other types of different bamboos, some suited for backing and others not so much.
Tonkin has also been used as a laminated belly timber. I guess planed laminated Tonkin could be used for a backing as well, if it was carefully made like a fly rod, with flattened nodes, that were staggered to reduce potential weak spots. Its hard to find information on how historical examples were made. Most of the information comes from shooters rather than bowyers. Sometimes they mention no specific type of backing, possibly like fly rod makers use. Sometimes they mention a hickory backing, or a conventionally backed with a full strip like we do these days. These bows were made in the 19th and early 20thC and had a very high reputation, for bows made from natural, woody type materials.
Madake or Japanese timber bamboo, was used for Yumi, Japanese bamboo bows. I also think it was the type of boo that Howard hill used for laminations. Howard made some bamboo backed bows but quickly went on to fibreglass, as a backing and as a belly facing.
I have some Madake that is just dried after nearly a year but haven't had the opportunity to do much bow building this year. Madake has noticably less pronounced nodes than Moso. It should be good for wider backed flat bows, as it grows to a larger diameter than Tonkin.
Tonkin will actually back a slightly wider limb and it's probably the best belly bamboo you can find.
Hill actually made a lot more than just a few bamboo backed bows. All bamboo laminated bows were his thing for quite some time.
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There is very good video out on you tube about an American supplier of flyrod quality tonkin bamboo going to the source in China and buying tonkin cane. He watches the cutting, drying and processing to make sure he only buys the best.
2 1/2" to 3" is about as big as this cane gets so if you see a 3" wide, flat slat of bamboo with the nodes and rind that referred to as tonkin cane someone is lying to you.
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+1 Echo Archery ,Carson has premium boo ,nodes are evenly spaced great place to due buiesness !
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I haven't seen Tonkin larger than about 2.5" diameter, so its hard to get a wide piece for a backing, without it having too much crown on the back side, and too much concavity for the core belly side. You might get a backing for 1 &1 /4" wide max after trimming. Other species of boo you can easily find 4-6" diameter stuff, which will provide a much wider backing. Most of the Tonkin backed bows I have seen were around 1" wide or less, used with tropical hardwood bellies like Ipe.
Yes, Howard did make more than a few bamboo backed bows. Its hard to know how many he made. Availability of boo would have become scarce due to Japan's invasion and occupation of China in 1937, right through until 1945. The most popular time for boo as a backing was in the 1940's. When fibreglass backing strips became commercially available, after the end of WW2, he even backed his favourite boo bows with glass(and possibly glassed the bellies too, can't remember for sure). I don't think Howard started to use Madake until after the war. There was a book published about Howard's bows and other equipment a few years ago. I tried to find my copy, but it must be hidden somewhere.
Yes boo makes an excellent belly material. The Japanese used it on the bellies of their yumis, and on the bellies of GI bows made post WW29(boo was also used as a core and the back). A bowyer friend by the name of Graeme Lomas of Australia, made an osage pyramid bow from board and glued a strip of natural boo, nodes intact, onto the belly, facing outwards. The bow was tillered by removing osage on the back. It was a really nice bow, fast and with excellent cast. There might even still be some pictures out there on the internet.
From memory not many of Howards bows in the book (or other sources like PA magazine)were the conventional type of boo backed bows, that we are used to today. The design and construction quickly morphed into the familiar Howard Hill type glassed longbow. He still continued to use boo as core laminations. Even though he used madake, with a relatively large diameter, he steamed then pressed the splits flat. This meant he could grind the rind and nodes flat without removing the power fibres too much.
Maybe by steaming Tonkin cane and pressing it flat you could consistently get backings suitable for wider belly slats.
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Carson has a ton of the nicest boo backing available.
Hit up echo archery website.
Do we know what type of bamboo Carson offers?
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All I have ever used came from Frank's in California. I have never had a problem with it.
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Tonkin cane is extremely heavy , maybe double the weight of osage. I don't believe I have ever seen real tonkin on a bow. Tonkin is also very stiff.
Franks is near my house and has been having some problems lately. A few months back his shipment came in with mold and mildew and his most recent shipment has the nodes too close together.
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Carson has a ton of the nicest boo backing available.
Hit up echo archery website.
Do we know what type of bamboo Carson offers?
+2 or +3 Carson has good boo and he tapers it for you. Plug and play.
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Carson has a ton of the nicest boo backing available.
Hit up echo archery website.
Do we know what type of bamboo Carson offers?
Moso. Most available backing will be that.
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Carson has a ton of the nicest boo backing available.
Hit up echo archery website.
Do we know what type of bamboo Carson offers?
Moso. Most available backing will be that.
Since it appears that I might need a larger diameter than grows in Tonkin, I should not limit myself to searching for that species.
Thanks for the shopping tips, guys. One of the things I like about PA is that you always learn more than you asked for. :)
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Carson has a ton of the nicest boo backing available.
Hit up echo archery website.
Do we know what type of bamboo Carson offers?
Moso. Most available backing will be that.
Good to know, thanks Pat
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I'm lucky to have a premium bamboo supplier of all types close by.
That is lucky. Does he have a website?
Badger: That's too bad about Frank Supply. That's been a great go-to place over the years.
willie: I think the thing to do is just search for bamboo poles, or bamboo slats. I have bought from at least 3 guys besides Frank Supply. Everybody seems to have about the same stuff for moso poles or slats, plus some other stuff. It's just a question of shipping and getting good quality, not moldy, not chipped up.
I just looked and two names I remembered from 10 years ago don't exist anymore.
Tam Vong is the other species of almost solid, but smaller diameter bamboo, along with Tre Gai.
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that does stink about Frank's... I have so much of his bamboo that I gave a bunch away at MoJam last year just hoping to see some more nice BBOs this year.
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Franks is near my house and has been having some problems lately. A few months back his shipment came in with mold and mildew and his most recent shipment has the nodes too close together.
then you are near huntington beach? when I did a search on the kinds of bamboo that springbuck mentioned, I found a other supplier in the same city called bamboocresian
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This is past history but I bought a bundle of 25 slats from Franks abut 15 years ago, beautiful stuff but every bamboo osage bow I made with it failed from bamboo splintering. I was selling them back then so I had to replace a bunch of bows that I sent out.
I bought another bundle and it arrived with water running out of it. When I opened the package every slat was waterlogged and mildewed. No more Frank's bamboo for me since, I found a local guy with giant timber bamboo in his back yard that I could buy cheaply.
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I normally use Franks, but like Badger mentioned I've been waiting since January to get some more in so I looked elsewhere. I bought some whole poles from Beautiful bamboo in Florida. These are Madake and are supposedly much better than Moso. A couple guys on tradgang swear by it. I haven't tried it yet though. The poles are about 3" in diameter and split easily into planks. You can get 4 to 5 backings from 1 pole. They came kiln dried but had over 20% MC so I'm drying them now. They do seem harder than moso. I'll give them a try on my next bow.
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you're down to the luck of the draw, but home depot has available 1.5" slats that you can order for delivery to your store. it's been a few years since i bought mine, but it was 120 for 25 slats picked up at the store. no idea of the species, but the one piece i've used seems to be solid enough. (yes, i suffer from to many irons in the fire!) your mileage may vary!
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Jaap koppedryer sells bamboo for bows. You have to get ahold of him via email and I don't know it, maybe Google him. But Carson at echo has it in stock
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Jaap koppedryer sells bamboo for bows. You have to get ahold of him via email and I don't know it
Yumibows@gmail.com
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Jay is real proud of his bamboo, he grew it himself and you will get sticker shock when you hear the price. He probably has the best out there as it the the right kind used to make Yumi bows by all the masters.
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If anyone know where to find about 3' of 3-4" diameter bamboo... please PM me... all of this bamboo talk has me thinking about yet another project. If the OP was to come to MoJam, I'd bring you a couple of pieces of well aged bamboo for backing. :OK
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I split the last of the Madake poles last night. Just to give you guys an idea of what it looks like. The feel of this bamboo is much different than the Moso I'm used to. I'll report my findings once I try it on a bow.
These poles are a little over 3" in diameter Bob. PM me if you want more details.
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I use mandrake, a guy across town has a back yard with about a half acre of it in it, some is 6"+ in diameter. He always called it "giant timber bamboo", I found out later it is mandrake.
Unfortunately the old guy with the bamboo patch just died and I don't know if the patch will be left intact. I stocked up years ago so I have plenty for the present.
Mandrake from my last cutting trip;