Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Jakesnyder on March 22, 2020, 06:00:06 pm
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Is there anyone out there that uses a pinch grip draw? Why isnt there more people that use it? Its recorded that most native american used it and were very accurate.
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Most people are two under or three under to draw heavier weights and have more control. The natives of yesterday did a lot of things that we don't do now for good reason. Basically it's a personal choice. If you want to develop the grip strength to hold back a hunting weight bow with just your thumb and finger then I say go for it.
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I learned to shoot with pinch grip. We didn't just use thumb and forefinger, there were most of the time two fingers under the arrow pulling the string as well. Depended on the weight of the bow. I can still pull 45+ with it no issue. If I can get up tomorrow I'll try to get a pic of how it was done.
Pop was raised by survivors of the Seminole Wars. I learned from full blooded Seminoles, and this is what the ones in my family did (before they switched to compounds.) I'm the last holdout for trad in the family, but most of the rest are passed on or dealing with injury. Being from a mining family, that's not too uncommon.
I still shoot with it sometimes. It helps me compensate for ruining the last two fingers on my right hand. I've been shooting with it more now that I've not got any thumb rings. I should make up some new arrows and get out there since we're quarantined here.
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Is there anyone out there that uses a pinch grip draw? Why isnt there more people that use it? Its recorded that most native american used it and were very accurate.
The grip was not the simple pinch grip though.
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there is book by Reginald and Gladys Laubin,,he shows 10 different arrows holds used by Native Americans
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Yea I'm talking about the tertiary grip or the secondary. I've asked a number of people and no one knows why it's not used more often.
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If you started shooting at grouse when you were six, and were encouraged to hit what you aimed for to put it in the pot, you might later work up to the point where you could shoot a heavier bow with the same accuracy and technique you grew up with.
we may seem to find it hard because we learn something new as adults
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10 years ago I first learned how to shoot with the pinch grip and two fingers under the arrow. Mainly because all I had was a small triangle file to file my nocks. I got pretty damned good at it and could consistently hit a paper plate at 20 yards. Then I stopped archery and I suck again haha.
I still occasionally shoot with a pinch grip. Part of me wants to go back.
I can draw back 50lbs comfortable with the two fingers under in a pinch grip. No hooking of the string. Strong fingers.
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Yea I'm talking about the tertiary grip or the secondary. I've asked a number of people and no one knows why it's not used more often.
Probably because its strong points are not necessary for the type of shooting people tend to do today.
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Yea I'm talking about the tertiary grip or the secondary. I've asked a number of people and no one knows why it's not used more often.
Can you humour a rookie and explain why anyone would want to use this grip over split finger or 3 under?
Thanks,
Mark
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From looking at Native American arrow nocks they were “V”s so a pinch grip would be necessary to hold the arrow in place on the string. I’ve had some dry fires trying a split finger with the shallow v nocks. Didn’t feel good at all
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Well for starters your draw is shorter therefore you can use alot shorter bow. If you grew up and had no idea how to shoot a bow I think most would shoot pinch grip naturally. To me it would make more sense than medditeranian. The more I think about it I think it was mostly tradition. There dads shows them how to shoot.
My main reason for starting up this topic was to see if anyone out there shoots this way? Just to get some confirmation that it can be done, with the shorter draw it still has enough power to hunt with and become extremely accurate.
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Mainly because all I had was a small triangle file to file my nocks
I think this is a point
in "primitive" conditions deep arrows knocks are not that practical.
they need more work to do.
are more fragile.
need more time to knock.
need a reinforced string on bow
a short v knock requires some sort of pinch grip
If our ancestors could count on single relaxed shots they probably had adopted 3 under well before
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It is not used more often here because we inherited our archery style from Great Britain and they used the Mediterranean grip (split finger) there to shoot easy bows with lower draws as previously mentioned.
There are a variety of grips used by Native Americans. They were all discussed in Laubin's book as mentioned above.
The pinch grip (just the finger and thumb) was used by the Plains Indians I believe. I think I read that because their bows were shorter and had a shorter draw length because that is all they needed for their style of hunting.
Also alluded to above the pinch grip does not work all that well with plastic nocks.
Jawge
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Is it just as effective in killing animals? I have read laubins book and was really surprised with all the accounts of indians killing the Spaniards and such. Do you think some of those were exaggerations? Or could it have been that the indians were ones to be greatly feared by them? Were they that accurate with short draws and floating anchors at long distances?
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Is it just as effective in killing animals? I have read laubins book and was really surprised with all the accounts of indians killing the Spaniards and such. Do you think some of those were exaggerations? Or could it have been that the indians were ones to be greatly feared by them? Were they that accurate with short draws and floating anchors at long distances?
Read Nine Years Among the Indians by Hermann Lehmann - he was kidnapped by Indians and actually became a Comanche. He briefly describes the archery skills he developed as an "Indian."
Furthermore, Native Americans were "raised" making and shooting their bows from early childhood - it is not unreasonable to presume they were deadly shots.
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Can you humour a rookie and explain why anyone would want to use this grip over split finger or 3 under?
if you prefer snapshooting (with instinctive aiming?)
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Jim Hamm's theory of the pinch grip. The bow arm push was used to pull the arrow loose from the pinch finger grip to prevent bow breakage, and arrows were grooved ,and heat treated so they would stay true. I have built west coast bows,and plain's bows, and tried some of the grips. I shot terrible, but they learned from an early age to shoot that way. They had to kill to eat,so they were very good archers in my opinion, and even better hunters at being able to stock their game at close range, and make the kill. JMO
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Read Plenty Coups - Chief of the Crow, and, Empire of the Summer Moon. These are not archery / primitive archery books, but I guarantee you will learn a lot about Native Americans, including some of their hunting and fighting skills.
Plenty Coups is the best book I ever read - I'm not kidding.
Empire of the Summer Moon is fantastic.
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The mediterrian grip is just easier...if we were all shooting self nocks,,.there would be more pinch grip..
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All right, while I wait for my partner in crime to wake up from her nap I'll tell what I know.
I started out at the age of 5 shooting. I started with the simple pinch draw and when my bows got heavier I graduated to the two fingers on the string pinch grip. We used the simple one bowfishing where we often only pulled to our chests.
Drawing an arrow to me is a set of calculations as to how much of the bow's energy to put behind this arrow to get it to go where I want. I did not always pull to full draw-I learned my bow's energy intimately and used it to determine if I needed a full draw or a chest draw. With a heavier bow that chest draw snap shot can still be lethal. I practiced both draws extensively-sometimes a whole day shooting at cornstalks during summer break. The goal was to lodge your arrow in the cornstalk from 10-20 yards away. Bisecting it worked too.
In college I studied Asian archery. A full draw there is longer than either draw I knew. But using pinch grip put me in good steading for using thumb draw then.
My arrows growing up were barely notched with a knife to sit on the string. They also had more bulbous nocks to assist with the pinch. Pop had a set of two-fletch with built up sinew nocks. Pity they're gone now. But they're made nothing like today's self nocks. A Turkish nock is closer to what we made.
As to the lethality of Native bows and the records of them shooting? Pop's warbow had to draw 90#. He could hit a dime at ten yards. He could stalk silently enough to count coup on an alligator. He had mastered the so-called "Parthian" shot if something presented itself on the fly. I have often wondered if he truly was magical. I never outshot the man. I could draw more at my max, but he was always the better shot. I've seen better shots, like the two gentlemen who can hit a thrown aspirin, but I've never seen a better overall hunter.
Pinch grip with the right equipment is just as lethal as any other style, and lends itself to shooting rapidly and flexibly. The lack of a predefined anchor point leaves you more able to determine your arrow's trajectory, which can mean the difference between dinner or no dinner. I know it's not "proper form," but we developed it to an art form here before you guys ever arrived to tell us we had it wrong. Even having been taught Manchu archery, I still prefer what I learned. I just know it better.
If the sun's still up when Karen wakes up, I'll get a picture of both types of draw for you guys. I'm realizing this information is about to die out-I need to preserve it any way possible. People who learned like me are few and far between now.
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All right, while I wait for my partner in crime to wake up from her nap I'll tell what I know.
I started out at the age of 5 shooting. I started with the simple pinch draw and when my bows got heavier I graduated to the two fingers on the string pinch grip. We used the simple one bowfishing where we often only pulled to our chests.
Drawing an arrow to me is a set of calculations as to how much of the bow's energy to put behind this arrow to get it to go where I want. I did not always pull to full draw-I learned my bow's energy intimately and used it to determine if I needed a full draw or a chest draw. With a heavier bow that chest draw snap shot can still be lethal. I practiced both draws extensively-sometimes a whole day shooting at cornstalks during summer break. The goal was to lodge your arrow in the cornstalk from 10-20 yards away. Bisecting it worked too.
In college I studied Asian archery. A full draw there is longer than either draw I knew. But using pinch grip put me in good steading for using thumb draw then.
My arrows growing up were barely notched with a knife to sit on the string. They also had more bulbous nocks to assist with the pinch. Pop had a set of two-fletch with built up sinew nocks. Pity they're gone now. But they're made nothing like today's self nocks. A Turkish nock is closer to what we made.
As to the lethality of Native bows and the records of them shooting? Pop's warbow had to draw 90#. He could hit a dime at ten yards. He could stalk silently enough to count coup on an alligator. He had mastered the so-called "Parthian" shot if something presented itself on the fly. I have often wondered if he truly was magical. I never outshot the man. I could draw more at my max, but he was always the better shot. I've seen better shots, like the two gentlemen who can hit a thrown aspirin, but I've never seen a better overall hunter.
Pinch grip with the right equipment is just as lethal as any other style, and lends itself to shooting rapidly and flexibly. The lack of a predefined anchor point leaves you more able to determine your arrow's trajectory, which can mean the difference between dinner or no dinner. I know it's not "proper form," but we developed it to an art form here before you guys ever arrived to tell us we had it wrong. Even having been taught Manchu archery, I still prefer what I learned. I just know it better.
If the sun's still up when Karen wakes up, I'll get a picture of both types of draw for you guys. I'm realizing this information is about to die out-I need to preserve it any way possible. People who learned like me are few and far between now.
Great post.
Wish there was a forum with more information like this.
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It's not likely to ever die out. It just won't be talked about as much.
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All great info guys! EdwardS do you have indian in you or who taught you how to shoot? I've asked numerous folks, why do you shoot the way you do. And the answer I keep getting is it's easier or that's how I was taught.
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I'm a bit over half Seminole/Mvskoke. My full-blood grandfather and great-grandfather taught me to shoot.
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Putting this in a new post so it shows up. I generally hate double posting.
https://imgur.com/a/e0j6JS8
I made an Imgur album for you guys with a junk arrow and my latest bow. This shows both pinch grips (index only on string and three fingers on string) and I've got some other pics I'm working on resizing now. I purposely did chest draw for you guys so you could see how it is done. I don't have any arrows long enough for a full draw (this was one of the daughter's arrows at 28") but I imagine you should be able to figure out how it works.
Any questions this doesn't answer I will try to photograph at a later date.
Bow (which is about to get its own thread) is 45#@28" and 50+ at my 32-36" draw. This is proof that you can certainly use this draw with hunting weight bows. I generally draw 36", but my full Manchu draw can max out at 44". This is due to Marfan syndrome, which gives me a longer armspan than my height (which was originally 6' 7" before my car vs bicycle accident.) This also gives me arm contractures, so I cannot fully straighten my left arm. This is just to explain what you see in the pictures.
If anyone has any other questions, just know I'm working on making a nock like I used when I was young to show you guys how that worked as well.
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Photo #6 and after is, I believe, similar to technique described by Jim Hamm in his book, Bows and Arrows of the Native Americans.
I have seen this described elsewhere as a Comanche (pinch) grip.
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Is it just as effective in killing animals? I have read laubins book and was really surprised with all the accounts of indians killing the Spaniards and such. Do you think some of those were exaggerations? Or could it have been that the indians were ones to be greatly feared by them? Were they that accurate with short draws and floating anchors at long distances?
Most of the Accounts by the Spanish were in reference to the South Eastern People,who used longer bows and longer draw lengths..
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It was weird shooting yesterday i was shooting my 44” maple shortbow that draws 50lb @ 20”. I was messing around at 10-15 yards with quick chest draws and snap shooting. I was kinda amazed at how consistently I was placing the arrows in a paper plate sized target. I was shooting with the two finger under pinch grip.
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Cool )P(
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Traxx, yes it's just as lethal. From my experience you get less string torque on release, so you have to learn to compensate. After that, it's no different from any other release and can be used on any bow. I don't tend to use it on centershot bows because of torque compensation (something that just takes practice to deal with, but as I don't own a centershot bow I can't practice it) but there's nothing that would prevent you from doing so.
As to the lethality against the Spaniards, let me talk for a minute about Pop's bow. He had a bow that was either captured during the Seminole War or more likely was made by a refugee that came south with the Red Sticks. It was (as I remember) about 68" ntn, made of bald cypress with a sinew backing. It was scalloped on both sides with the traditional diamond nocks of the Southeastern tribes. It had a gut string and was covered with what looked like thin deer rawhide. Traditional "Cherokee" D bow profile, bend through the handle. Catfish skin handle. I think that was added later.
That bow must have drawn 80-90#, based on how hard it was to draw against my at the time 70-75# draw. It did that at the chest draw, at full draw it certainly was heavier. That's plenty sufficient to punch through Spanish armor, never mind if you hit an unarmored area, which they were more than skilled enough to do. I used to shoot at the 80-90# mark and I could get near full penetration on a cinder block. That's not advised, of course. It could shoot through a car door up to the fletching. I can no longer do that, but the things I wrecked shooting straight through my styrofoam block targets caused me to think long and hard about how strong they were in battle. Add to that that the cane arrows would often shatter on impact and you have a recipe for festering wounds. At those weights the horses weren't safe either.
Many arrows had fire-hardened wood heads. Those were strong enough to pierce the plate armor, and the shaft breaking afterwards would have left the head in place. Flint or obsidian would shatter, causing a multitude of cuts and bone would stay in the wound like wood. (I know I owe everyone a bone arrowhead how-to, but I'm just now getting to be active outside again.)
People underestimate the power of bows routinely. I've seen a 25 pound bow get a double passthrough on a deer with good shot placement and shaving sharp head. To put things in context, on TradGang a person posted an elephant hunt they had been on. A 90# trad bow was enough to pass through and break a rib on the opposite side, which was lethal to the elephant. The Ashby report also shows what arrows can do against a multitude of very large game mammals. 60# has been enough with the proper head choice to kill an alligator by entering the brain cavity.
The grip is not what kills, it is the shot placement. In that Natives excelled. They lived as I did with the bow, but I had to go to school and they didn't. If I had grown up like them, maybe I would have been as good as Pop. But as to whether they took out the Spaniards like they said they did, I believe it's completely possible.
Makes me want to go look at the cypress boards in Flomaton.
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EdwardS....
You wouldnt happen to know,Bob Osceola would you???...He has told me many different stories concerning the "Seminole"......Bobs Grandfather was Howard Hills Guide when he hunted the swamps down there..
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I do not, unfortunately. I'm more closely related to the Poarch Creek, we come from Escambia County AL and surrounding. Pop's wife was from further down, but she passed while I was in high school. Pop didn't pass til I was 32. Gramps passed the same year.
My band (I'm Vhvlvkvlke, or Sweet Potato Clan) were Mvskoke mine slaves originally. Due to an agreement that was (unilaterally) made around the time of the Trail of Tears and the Dawes rolls, Mvskoke freedmen could not be counted as official Native Americans. We could be Black or we could just exist without. The agreement is an in perpetuity one, so their descendants cannot join either. We retained some of our language, and our traditions, but legislation against our religion, our ways, and our language and having to hide in plain sight messed up a lot of stuff. Pop never voted, even after Natives got the right to vote in the 60s. Never trusted the system. We'd only speak Mvskoke in the woods. I'm not very good at it at all. Too little exposure.
We moved up around the Jasper AL area, which is where I was born. I've moved back to Escambia Co, just five minutes from Burnt Corn Creek. I have a little informal contact with the Poarch Creek. It's an issue where they know that we're long lost cousins, but they can't recognize us legally. There's some information on it on the Mvskoke page on Wikipedia (not sure if I can link a non-sales site.) It's an issue when you have Native blood, Native knowledge, Native traditions (and Native diseases) but due to white people gatekeeping who's Native I at this point will never get my Native ID card or my Native American Artist's number. We're not dogs or horses, we don't need a pedigree.
I'm sorry about that aside, but it explains where I got the knowledge of archery and Mvskoke culture. I spend a lot of time trying to record what traditions I can find so they don't die out. With my being disabled, I have a lot of time to dedicate to it. Gives me a lot of time to shoot, at least.
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Bob is Miccosukee of the Panther Clan..He used to Go By Kowechobe on this forum..Unfortunately,,Bob suffered a bad Stroke a couple years ago,and we havent talked in a while..His daughter called to tell me of it as it seems he is non verbal..Bob was an MD and was of great help to my wife,in some of her medical troubles..
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That's plenty sufficient to punch through Spanish armor
Interesting account, Edward.Thanks.
It was my impression from reading Desotos account of his expedition thru the south. that amour for the grunts was cotton or leather padding. this was abandoned by some as it was unbearably hot in the summer weather. Chain mail armor was used by mainly by the officers and preferred as it was cooler to wear, that is, until their assailants learned that cane arrows without an arrowhead split and penetrated around the chain links.