Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Muzzleloaders => Topic started by: PEARL DRUMS on December 08, 2016, 12:59:54 pm
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I was told by a wise man TC had a few different rifling ratios in their barrels on the older Hawkens. Can anybody confirm that and can anybody tell me why no matter what I try my gun throws breaking balls with round balls and patches? I've changed patch thickness' and charges. It never gets any better, only worse. Pistol bullets and plastic shoot lights out accurate.
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Rate of twist is to fast for roundball. The longer the projectile, the faster it has to spin to stabilize. Conversely, the shorter the projectile and round ball is as short as it gets, the less twist you need to stabilize it. Your old hawken was rifled for slugs rather than roundball. Josh
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yours prolly has to fast a twist in the rifling, thats what the old guys always told me Chris
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Have you tried Buffalo balls, Or maxi balls? How much powder are you using? With my T/C White Mountain Carbine I could split a ball on an ax head at 15 yards with round balls.
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Ed Brooks sent me a bunch of hand poured maxi balls to try. I haven't tried them yet, but plan to. I really wanted to use round balls, but it just cant happen the way I see it. That's a bummer.
Joe I tried a charge from 80 grains up to 100 grains, I was lucky to hit a 24" square at 30 yards. It was bad. I now shoot 80 grains of powder with 300 grain Hornady bullets and a sabot. It touches bullet holes at 75 yards.
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If its fast twist, even dropping down to 50 grains might be too fast to stabilize. Most round ball twist is 1:66 or slower, mine are 1:70. Some of the older Hawkens are 1:48, they tried to compromise between fast for bullets and slow for ball, and they aren't great for either.
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From my memory (I has been a few years) The T/C Hawkens is a 1/28
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I have no idea what twist I have or how to know. I suppose in the end it wont change my results what the rifling is. It simply wont shoot patched round balls. My gun is a '73 if that matters?
Some day Ill own a sweet flint locker like Mr. Snow builds. I'd have deer sneak right by while I stared at the pretty piece sitting across my lap :)
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You may want to look at the possibility of a replacement barrel with a more appropriate twist. I am not that familiar with those guns, but I could ask some of the guys in our club if they know about any options.
Pretty guns just look nicer when you miss. I have won shoots with some UGLY guns.
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I used to own a TC Renagade Hunter and it had a 1/48 twist. Shot round balls just fine.
Yours might have the 1/28 conical twist that tends to like the lead maxi-balls or the maxi-hunters.
What caliber is it? If it's a 54 I might have some old TC Maxi somethings around here that you could try ..?
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Its a .50, Paul. I have some Maxi balls Ed Brooks poured and gave to me. I plan to shoot them this winter after our season passes. If they fly good, Ill be just as happy as if they were round. I like simplicity and you cant get much more simple than a bullet and powder. No plastic and no patch.
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Hope they work for ya . I'll dig around anyway, my wife used to shoot a 50 and I may have gotten some for her once..?
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I appreciate it, Paul.
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I've got some different conical balls you can try, Chris. I know I have some Buffalo Bullets in 50 cal.
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PD. 1in48 should be the twist in that gun as far as I know. it should toss a round ball nice, but is getting fast in the twist, the maxi was made for the TC Hawken, you'll like how it shoots them.
For the round ball tho, you might try to drop the powder down. Start out at 50gr, and bump it up 5 or 10gr at a time until you get what your after.
old rule of thumb as i have been told start with the same grain of powder as the caliber you are shooting and then move up from there.
I use 50gr with the maxi ball when shooting at the range and it shoots nice, I do that just to save powder along with my cheek from recoil, and I notice not different in where it hits the target.
I have never tried but have seen ppl mention to check the twist, by puttting a cleaning rod in it and count the twists as you move the rod up an down the barrel. Good Luck! Ed
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If I remember correctly, the very early TC Hawkens all had a very fast twist and were designed for the Maxi-ball(bullet). Very accurate, which is one reason most BP matches are patched round ball only unless otherwise noted, specialty marches, stake shoots, etc. you can measure your twist by taking a ramrod, cleaning rod, or " wiping stick", jag and patch. Measure the barrel, mark the muzzle and the rod, then push the rod down to the breech watching for one full turn, should do it twice for a more accurate guess. If you get less than a full turn you have a slower twist. I don't have a conversion chart handy but there is one on line. Btw, my very old (1975) 1st ed. Lyman BP hand book states the .50 cal. Hawken twist is 1:48. Good shooting and keep yer powder dry. I find most of my accuracy problems occur in the brain housing group:)
Hawkdancer
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I find most of my accuracy problems lie with the loose nut on the trigger.
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It's probably been said earlier here but a round ball requires a slower twist.I have a 35" badger barrel on my johnathon browning .54.I forget the rate of twist though.Could be wrong but 1 twist in 48" maybe??It's been over 30 years ago.Not near as tight as TC barrels which are probably at least half that.My browning would sometimes throw the first ball as a flyer then a wet patch between shots after it's dirty would put it spot on.
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I'll check my TC Hawkin tonight see the twist rate.. Shoots a patched ball real good
Thanks Leroy
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The bulk of TC guns have a 1 in 48 twist, middle of the road for balls and bullets alike. I have owned 4 or 5 of these guns, most were good shooters.
The PA hunter rifles were 1 in 66.
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Mine is 1 -48 haven't tried maxi balls yet in it.. My Lyman deerstalker loves them 1 1/2'' group at 50 yards 1 - 24 twist
Thanks Leroy
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I though all the TC Renegades had the 1/48 twist. I owned two when younger and shot both round and TC Maxi balls from the 54 cal. guns. The Maxi was 405 grains of destruction. Both Maxi and round shot perfect. I purchased a Green Mountain drop in barrel for my 50 cal Seneca that had 1/66 rifling. It has deep grooves and is round ball only. The depth of the cut rifling is what is most concern. Can't shoot conicals from a deep cut rifling but you can shoot both from a shallow cut rifling.
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If it turns out that it shoots maxiballs just fine, let me know. I have a mold for them that I would be happy to send you.
It is the Lee 90396 R.E.A.L. Bullet mold, if you wanna research it a little. It is in my way and needs to find a home, anyhow.
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Thanks for all the info, guys!
I let you know J-Dub. Thanks man.
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I have a 48" twist T.C. hawkens, it shoots about the same with a .490 round ball with a thick patch as it does the the Lee REAL boolit. I run both over 70gr of FF pyrodex. The worst part about the fast twist with the round ball is that any imperfection in the concentricity and ballance of the ball will be exagurated compared to what it would take with a lesser twist rate making the group worse. It's been a while since I've shot it much. Which I need to do with our alternative methods season coming up soon. But if I remember correctly, it holds about 2" at 50 yards. which is plenty good enough for what I ever intend to do with it. I need to get it back out and see what it can do. I've still got a bunch of balls and conicals I cast up a few years ago.
Kyle
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Pearly, try about 60 or 65 grains with the patch and round balls. Seams to shoot about 1.5in groups consistently out of my 1:48 twist barrel on my bobcat. I also shoot the maxiballs with 80 grains for hunting and I can cut the same holes on the target with that load.
When I first shot the maxiballs they wasn't that accuracy and someone told me to try loading them with a lubercated wad between the power and maxiball. And man what a difference. I guess it seals the barrel tighter.
Patrick
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Patrick, was you using a lube on the bullet before you switched to the lubed patch?
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Ed, yes. The maxiballs are still lubercated. The wad is a small round disk, maybe wool. They are the same size as the barrel. I found them at bass pro shop. They are lightly lubercated and in expensive.
Patrick
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Ed, yes. The maxiballs are still lubercated. The wad is a small round disk, maybe wool. They are the same size as the barrel. I found them at bass pro shop. They are lightly lubercated and in expensive.
Patrick
Thank you Patick, I have used the same kind of thing on my 44 six shooter, never tried them in my rifle. Thanks Ed
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No problem Ed, I never heard of it either. Old feller at the gun range told me that and I figured what could hurt. Man what a difference!
Patrick
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Pearly
I shot one of them for many years and you have been given a good bit of real good advice
put them maxi's in her and let then fly
if your hart it set on balls let me tell you you have a bit of work ahead of you
gota have good balls and proper patch and some good lube, also leave them fake powders home
start shooting and don't quit start about 50 grains of black and keeping bumping it up
50 will probably shoot good but feel kinda puny if 60 and 70 get worse skip to 100 and see what you get
110 or 120 will probably settle in for you and tell the story if it does and I am confident it will
Or you can drop back to 90 and add the patches like patrick was talking may take 2or3 of them
have fun and hope you enjoy cleaning it as you will be doing that alot to get thru this whole process
the better the lube you have the more shots you can get between cleanings
after a couple of pounds of powder you will have a good start on learning your gun and she will become a part of you after a bit more
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Pearl Drum,
Target loads and hunting loads are very different Try a .015 patch and a .490 RB, target load about 25to30 gr 3F, hunting load about 75 gr 3F and work up/down to get what you want. For hunting, the really old guys tell me 85 gr 3F pushing a maxi ball or buffalo bullet will stop an elk up to 150 yes, no problem, assumed a good shot in the vital zone- otherwise we come up with a new name for you:) :(
I have not hunted with my .50 cal TC yet but it does well enough with the tight patch and rb's on the range. Driving tacks isn't really necessary for hunting, as you know just a solid hit in the vital organs. But don't mess up the liver, it is real good with wild rice and mushrooms in a wine sauce :). Yum!
Hawkdancer
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Not about a muzzleloader but I used to have a single shot 20 gauge shotgun that I used to load and shoot round balls from, with smokeless. It was incredibly accurate
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I put a green mountain barrel on my renegade. I called the company, googled it, told them the serial number and the gave me all the info I needed; ball size, powder load, patch thinkness, grade of powder, all that stuff. Maybe you could try that also. Made for a quick answer.
Have a gooder buddy, dp