Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: E.H. on April 22, 2020, 10:57:17 pm
-
hello people, new member here. i was reading a few threads when i was digging for infos on board bows since i want to start making bows for a while now. i saw the video series on board bows by clay hayes and thought i would give it a shot. i would like to use maple, of course rawhide backed. something really bugs me though since i saw two other videos about some details... in those video there was mention of rounding the back of the bow for aesthetic reason (always loved curves since it give a more organic feel). the thing is that it is said that if you round the back of the bow the poundage will be affected and i was thinking about how to ''bypass'' this with things like heat treating the belly and adding some reflex to the tips... since I'm a neophyte in all bow stuff i thought it would be a good idea to discuss those things with you guys and gals before making anything... also i wanted to base my bow on something like the picture attached but i also wanted to add stuff to the design (a bit more thickness to the handle and the stuff mentioned earlier in the post).
my aim would be about 50# at 28'' and would like to keep in the same bow lenghts as on the picture...
-
Perhaps round any sharp edges was the intent?
-
you are making many questions that would require some veeery long answers
I'd suggest you to keep things simple for your first bows
you dont need backing, heat treating nor reflex
you can make a perfectly functional bow out of a good board (board selection is paramount) with good tillering and a basic design
As a novice you'll make mistakes. the more variables you add the less you will be able to isolate and correct your faults in the future
the bending handle circular tiller design you published is good.
draw weight will be influenced by your bow section width and thickness so you can still have more than enough wood if you round your corners.
do some research on the site and examine the tillering methods and the board choice suggestions
-
You make it rectangle and while still too heavy, you round the corners. Then you only scratch off the last half belly millimeter to get 2 pounds above the target weight, then sandpaper it, shoot it 100x, make final tiller adjustments and finish the wood.
If design is long/wide enough and wood lines are ok, you do not need to back the hard maple. My experience is, maple can withstand more line violation that ash.
For 50lb poundage stiff handle flat bow make it 2 inch wide and 66 inch long. For such a eastern woodland D-design bending through the handle, effective length of working limbs is longer so you can make it a bit narrower, like 1 1/2 inch in the mid-limb. It will work with maple, elm, hickory or ash.
-
thanks for the advices, i guess the design on the right would be best for a start afterall since it seems to be a rounded flat style (probably easier to get right). the rawhide backing it just to make sure it won't snap at my face if i mess up (lol) i mean, i worked with wood before making warclubs and stuff but a bow is a good notch higher in complexity. i guess a bend through would be better for a start.
i'll see with a friend if he's able to make a precise measurement of the whole bow drawing using his computer...for the profile it will be better... for the base tiller, at which distance from the tips should i start removing wood?
-
Those aren't pictures of board bows.
There's board bow info on my site including a build along.
Note that it is a bend in the handle design.
You can change the width to 1 3/8" to make the handle more manageable.
Have fun.
Please note the straight grain part.
http://traditionalarchery101.com/boardbowbuildalong.html
Jawge
-
Those aren't pictures of board bows.
There's board bow info on my site including a build along.
Note that it is a bend in the handle design.
You can change the width to 1 3/8" to make the handle more manageable.
Have fun.
Please note the straight grain part.
http://traditionalarchery101.com/boardbowbuildalong.html
Jawge
thanks for the link! it will be very useful :D i know these aren't from a board bow but i was thinking more about cross section wise and design since i don'T necessarily want it to be rectangular in cross section but more ''oval'' (rather than eliptic) this was the video that gave me the idea for the rounded shape... of course his are more paddle bows so i don't know if it's applicable to the design i want to do... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIT5jcraUu4
-
On a board just round the edges. My point is the wood used for those bows has that basic shape on its back.
-
how wide is your maple board and what kind of maple is it?
A rounder crossection means that the bow needs to be a bit wider to make 50#.
-
how wide is your maple board and what kind of maple is it?
A rounder crossection means that the bow needs to be a bit wider to make 50#.
i haven't bought the board yet so i guess the width will depend on the plank i get, as a minimum it would be a board of about 1.5'' in width... thought about just following a similar way to clay haye's tutorial on board bow or make a paddle bow depending on the board i get with a good grain... but what i wonder the most is if i round the back of the bow, should i use 1/8'' or 1/4'' of the thickness to do so?
it's the kind of maple availlable from hardware stores so probably hard maple.
-
but what i wonder the most is if i round the back of the bow, should i use 1/8'' or 1/4'' of the thickness to do so?
there is a thickness that is optimum for a 67" bow drawn to 28" if it is to pull 50#. too thick and the bow will break or take too much set, too thin and the bow will be weak. I believe that a 3/4 thick board will be enough to start with but the tillering process will inform you as you go.
do some research on the site and examine the tillering methods and the board choice suggestions
-
but what i wonder the most is if i round the back of the bow, should i use 1/8'' or 1/4'' of the thickness to do so?
there is a thickness that is optimum for a 67" bow drawn to 28" if it is to pull 50#. too thick and the bow will break or take too much set, too thin and the bow will be weak. I believe that a 3/4 thick board will be enough to start with but the tillering process will inform you as you go.
sorry, worded that wrong... what i meant to say is that if i rounded the back of the bow on a 3/4'' thick board should i shape the sides using 1/8'' or 1/4''. the center of the cross section would remain basicly the same thickness exept for the tiller of course.
-
got a 6' long 1''X3'' of maple, had to go through 3 hardware store just to find the only one that was suitable ^^' . next time i'm going to a specialised place, it will be easier to find something...
i also got a cotton cord (about 1/4'' thick) to use as a tillering string and a pack of 15 bamboo sticks to start making arrows. hopefully it will be good enough.
-
the advice to round the back most often given is to prevent raising a splinter while bending the bow. a radius about pea size is all it takes, and it is necessary even for a rectangular crossection with "sharp" edges.
your steve alley print of the bow from virginia? goes from round at the tips to elliptical at the handle so
you should be fine following that design.
you don't have to have the bow totally smoothed into the final shape as you go, but it would be a good idea to at least keep a very smooth corner on the back while tillering
-
I have shaped the backs of many board bows to get the arch of a stave bow. It does not need to be a whole lot. I would recommend you draw a pencil line down the center line of the bow and use a block plane with the blade set very shallow and tilted at an angle to take a few swipes down each side. Sand down all ridges and angles. Then sand the corners between the back and the sides of the bow. At that point you are ready to start tillering.
-
I have shaped the backs of many board bows to get the arch of a stave bow. It does not need to be a whole lot. I would recommend you draw a pencil line down the center line of the bow and use a block plane with the blade set very shallow and tilted at an angle to take a few swipes down each side. Sand down all ridges and angles. Then sand the corners between the back and the sides of the bow. At that point you are ready to start tillering.
by not a whole lot you mean how much? 1/8''? all i have is a mini hand plane, files and three rasps of different grades.
-
first problem... my board has one big runoff so i have to either find a way to bypass it on the 6' plank or cut it to 61''...
-
can you post a pic of face, side and end view?
if the ring lines are hard to see being maple, you will probably have to high-light them
-
i don't know if it's noticable enough
-
forgot the end grain...
-
can you take one more ?
straight on, showing the two marks with measurements and the swirl?
the lines are at 60 and 61 inches?
thanks
-
there you go, actually the lines were at 61'' and 62''
-
you might be able to go something like 64 ntn as there is not much stress at the tips.
on the last pic, trace a ring line that is on the left near the swirl towards the good end, does it go down and to the right?
I should also ask if you have ever shot a bendy handle NA style bow before, and do you use a broken wrist grip?, the reason I ask is that unless you have quite long arms, there might be a good chance you don't actually need to pull 28".
-
that's good news for the bow lenght.
for the picture did you mean like this?
the only bow i ever shot was a takedown recurve so it would actually be my first time both at making a bow and shooting a NA style bow.
i had the new year resolution to start archery as well as making my own bow and arrows (lol)
-
for the picture did you mean like this?
Hmm, I would call that up and to the right, but anyways, if the ring lines are down and to the right on the part of the board you hope to use, maybe you can sneak a little past that spot by cutting so that the bow follows the lines the best.
Good resolution BTW.
basically, if you multiply your draw length times 2.25 for a bendy handle bow, you can determine what length it needs to be. an experienced tillerer with a good stave can go shorter, but you should be able to get a workable bow out of that board as a first timer, unless you are a taller than average. Getting #50 with a shorter bow means you might want to look at a more retangular style NA bow. Are there others that strike your fancy in that book? Most bows illustrated are shorter because the archers liked shorter bows and could have preferred a different style of shooting with shorter draws, but that doesn't mean you can't stretch out any bow that is too short in the illustration.
-
well i do like the california tribes bows and making them longer would probably make for a monster looking bow (lol) other than that i have no idea, i don't have the book per se... i just saw the pictures on google and took a few as references.
-
I have shaped the backs of many board bows to get the arch of a stave bow. It does not need to be a whole lot. I would recommend you draw a pencil line down the center line of the bow and use a block plane with the blade set very shallow and tilted at an angle to take a few swipes down each side. Sand down all ridges and angles. Then sand the corners between the back and the sides of the bow. At that point you are ready to start tillering.
by not a whole lot you mean how much? 1/8''? all i have is a mini hand plane, files and three rasps of different grades.
A little less than an 1/8th
-
some here...
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,58067.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,58067.0.html)
the book you took the photo from is
Encyclopedia of Native American Bows, Arrows & Quivers: Volume 1: Northeast, Southeast, and Midwest
by Steve Allely,
Jim Hamm
of course, if you were liking the idea of a rounded back, a 2" or 3'' Dia. sapling of hickory or other hardwood is the best way to go.
-
true that but for now i don't have access of a tree ^^' so i'll probably try making this one but as a board bow with some differences if i don't change my idea ^^' but it should be wide enough to allow longer draws i imagine.
-
a wider bow will help you make more draw weight, but you still need an adequate bow length to draw length ratio.
-
yes i planned to make it longer than the one in the picture too
-
also i'm a bit lost with amo lenghts... if my bow is 64'' total and has maybe 3/4'' or 1'' pin nocks... it would give a 62'' nock to nock so is it safe to assume a 62'' amo size is the way to go?
-
you should make a loop on one end of your string and leave the other long to tie where ever you want. If long enough, you can tiller with it also.
-
i have a cotton cord of about 1/4'' thick, should be good enough for tillering?
-
i have a cotton cord of about 1/4'' thick, should be good enough for tillering?
That's much too thick to fit the nocks. I have used paracord to tiller and even it is a bit fat and too stretchy for optimal short long string use.
Mark
-
i have a cotton cord of about 1/4'' thick, should be good enough for tillering?
That's much too thick to fit the nocks. I have used paracord to tiller and even it is a bit fat and too stretchy for optimal short long string use.
Mark
i planned to put pin nocks on my bow
-
i planned to put pin nocks on my bow
In that case it should work as long as the shoulders on the nock are large enough to catch the 1/4" thick rope. I think you will also find it very stretchy, but that isn't too much of an issue until you are getting close to the limbs bending to brace height, then you need a string that is stiff enough to allow you to have a tight long string and the ability to set a low brace height that stays fixed.
Mark
-
haven't started my bow yet because of the lack of good weather... but i had a kind of change of heart when i saw my attempt at a bamboo bow (which didn't glue properly) and i was thinking about making my maple bow the same lenght as that one (53 or so inches)... thing is, i don'T know about the kind of draw i should go for at that point... 24? 26 maybe?
-
when you pick a style/dimensions, you will typically establish a drew weight to work towards.
if you start to notice the bow taking set as you tiller, you will have to stop drawing and miss your draw length goal. most prefer to attain their draw length goal and do so by making the bow thinner and coming in light on the draw weight
-
when you pick a style/dimensions, you will typically establish a drew weight to work towards.
if you start to notice the bow taking set as you tiller, you will have to stop drawing and miss your draw length goal. most prefer to attain their draw length goal and do so by making the bow thinner and coming in light on the draw weight
sorry by draw i meant the draw lenght. my fault :-[
-
ok so after procrastinating too long and getting a new vice that is rotating i ended up being able to crown the belly of the bow... is there a thickness ratio to follow when flattening the crown? it's currently slightly bending so can i assume that i'm at the floor tiller stage? if i were to estimate the curve ratio when i try to bend it, it's about at 1.5'' max and it's still very stiff...
-
keep scraping or rasping wood off the belly untill it is not so stiff,,
-
it's currently slightly bending so can i assume that i'm at the floor tiller stage? if i were to estimate the curve ratio when i try to bend it, it's about at 1.5'' max and it's still very stiff...
If you can only bend it 1.5" then it is way too stiff yet. You should easily be able to move the tips 5-6" at least before putting it on the tree. If you have an existing bow you can try bending it on the floor to get an idea of the kind of force that should be involved. I find a 40lb bow to be easy to bend, so much so that it feels almost like a kids bow before it goes on the tree.
Mark
-
unfortunately it's my first bow ever, i wanted to start archery but didn't have enough money for a bow so i'm going towards making my own arrows and bow to compensate... the first bow i shot was a recurve in highschool and i suspect it to be around 50# since i had trouble back then to shoot it (even if my score back then was 3 baloons out of 4 because a weirdo put the 4th one in the target of a guy who had a laser sighted compound bow...) i shaved them a bit more and it'S getting better but still too stiff and at about 3'' bend so i guess i'm getting there.... will shave the limbs a bit more and then make the pin nocks for the loose string... (i'll be using a thick cotton string for that even though i know it's going to be stretchy and a bit toobig to use as a bow string... it'S only temporary, i'll go get a proper string after i'm done with the basic steps :)
-
you could put your long string on it so that it droops a few inches, then hang a weigh equal to your design pull weight and post a pic. Stating the bow length when you do will help. Guys here will be better able to help that way.
-
tried using a long string on it... it was too stretchy but also too stiff to actually bend... so i'll be removing more wood for a while still...
-
marked the stiffness near the grip area after the picture... had to use silk katana wrap strings to make a makeshift tillering string... it's plenty strong it seems :P
-
Do you have a tillering gizmo ?
-
not really, it's my first bow ever and because of that i don't have much equipment :-[ but i can make one i guess :)
-
forgot to precise that the bow is 62'' long the limbs are about 2.5'' wide at the widest
-
looks like most of the bend is mid limb, which is appropriate for this stage of tillering, as the handle will want to bend more as you get closer to full draw, (so it's not wise to let it bend in the middle too much early on)
and what draw length are you hoping for?
-
26 to 28'' i guess...
-
E.H.,
Grain, Grain, Grain.
You have quite a few run outs on the back of that board stave.
Try need straight grain tip to tip with maybe 1 or 2 outs per limb.
This board may survive with a backing of linen.
Jawge
-
E.H.,
Grain, Grain, Grain.
You have quite a few run outs on the back of that board stave.
Try need straight grain tip to tip with maybe 1 or 2 outs per limb.
This board may survive with a backing of linen.
Jawge
if you mean the very wavy part it'S been cut off the board. the rest was pretty much straight.
-
Are they running off the side? Jawge
-
not really, just at the one end i removed from the board.
-
quick question, those bows seemed to have been of low brace so i thought of going towards that... if i want to go for low brace, should i continue to lighten the limbs more or i can just do the final tillering right now?
-
Not sure what you’re asking exactly. You should always get the bow braced and tiller from there if that’s what you mean.
-
From the pic above you aren't quite ready for low brace. Get it bending a little bit more and if the weight isn't too much then go to low brace.
-
if i want to go for low brace, should i continue to lighten the limbs more or i can just do the final tillering right now?
You need to work towards a normal brace height and then can tiller from there. The limbs won't bend 100% accurately until you have the correct length string on them and are loading it as you will when shooting it. If it is too heavy to get to the final brace height you need to keep taking weight off while trying to keep the bend smooth and refining whatever defects you find along the way.
Mark