Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: iowabow on August 10, 2012, 01:15:26 pm

Title: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 10, 2012, 01:15:26 pm
I have been trying new materials for shafts and really like the dogwood arrows. So I am going to make a few more and thought someone might like a start to finish post. Anyone interested?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: gothmog on August 10, 2012, 02:32:55 pm
Absolutely.  BTW, your boy been shootin that bow he made in Tn?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 10, 2012, 04:03:40 pm
Yes he has been shooing it. Ok well after finding good grove of dogwood i take my time picking real good and straight shoot shafts. Picking good shoots will save you time. Here are some  pictures of the tree and some of us shaving off the bark so they will dry faster.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 10, 2012, 04:07:11 pm
Isaac shaving bark
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: JW_Halverson on August 10, 2012, 05:54:28 pm
Not to put too fine of a point on it...but have you got that dogwood arrow shaft build along done yet?  Getting tired of waiting, I wanna seeeeee!
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: markinengland on August 10, 2012, 06:09:10 pm
It's well known that dogwood shafts take at least a few hours if not longer :>) to dry. No doubt we will have a nice series of pics of shafts drying!
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 10, 2012, 06:10:54 pm
Not to put too fine of a point on it...but have you got that dogwood arrow shaft build along done yet?  Getting tired of waiting, I wanna seeeeee!
You can't rush child labor in the USA! ;)
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: JW_Halverson on August 10, 2012, 06:13:58 pm
I would think getting Isaac to slow down would be much harder!
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: AJMag on August 10, 2012, 06:21:50 pm

[/quote]
You can't rush child labor in the USA! ;)
[/quote]

I wish someone would have told my dad and grandfather that. I'm having flashbacks now.

I'm definitely interested in a build along. Just another thing that will have me busy on weekends.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 10, 2012, 06:25:21 pm
OK the bark on the four shafts has been removed and now I will weigh it each day.  When it is no longer dropping wt it should be close to dry. After it dries I will  spine it to the bow wt.  more photos to follow when it dries. I will record the drop in wt each day so you can follow along. If you have any question about what I have done up to this point please ask. I did forget to say that I cut each shoot extra long so that I have the option to move up or down the shaft to spine it. Be real picky when selecting shoots your time is important. Cutting and debarking takes only a couple minutes. This arrow takes very little labor to make.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: AJMag on August 10, 2012, 07:17:22 pm
Is there anything special about drying shoots? Such as sealing the ends like a stave or hang them over bundling? I remember reading posts about straightening them by hand daily or weekly as they dry, do you do anything in particular?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 11, 2012, 12:15:46 am
Yes I try to hand bend each day. No sealing that is why I cut  them long. This is a cake walk compared to the red oak shafts I made.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 11, 2012, 09:57:06 am
The wet green shoot is now dryer and has a wt of 744 grains. This sounds heavy but remember it is long and heavy on one end. We will straighten them a little today.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 11, 2012, 12:03:40 pm
Here are a few more pics of the shafts. One has a dog leg but it is 60inches long. If this one spines ok below the dog leg it will not need to be part of the arrow. For now I will keep it to be on the safe side. No cracks yet. On the first arrow I made I had a crack form around a stem. Lucky it did not become part of the arrow.  So this time I left more wood and will trim lt later. Already the shafts are looking great and straight. The lengths now are between 40 and 60 inches. My draw is 25 and I make 28 inch arrows.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: Jodocus on August 11, 2012, 03:11:08 pm
Thanks for posting this! I'm gonna go get me some popcorn and watch!

what kind of dogwood is this? cornus sanguinea?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: BowEd on August 11, 2012, 04:14:06 pm
Great idea John.I'll watch.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 11, 2012, 05:24:29 pm
It is C. Racemosa see photos "gray" see photo and field guide. Fruit, white pith, leaf vein patterns & bark match.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 11, 2012, 05:31:04 pm
Great idea John.I'll watch.
I learned from beadman to weigh wood to determine when it was dry.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 11, 2012, 05:41:09 pm
The last time I arrows I dried them using the steps. The concrete gets hot and the air flows all around them.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: Pat B on August 11, 2012, 06:00:19 pm
John, you will notice after a while that dry shoots make good arrows but seasoned shoots make great arrows. After they have a year or more their stability really goes up. They will stiffen some too as they season.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 11, 2012, 06:11:49 pm
John, you will notice after a while that dry shoots make good arrows but seasoned shoots make great arrows. After they have a year or more their stability really goes up. They will stiffen some too as they season.
Pat this is what I love about this site...it is information just like that. So I will adopt that idea now to cut a second set that will season for next years hunting season. Wow thanks for that info.



Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: JW_Halverson on August 11, 2012, 06:44:30 pm
Well that point supports what a lot of people have said about curing out bow wood!  Sure can make a bow when it dries, but it makes better bows when cured. 

For that matter, I was a pretty good 'un for the ladies when I was younger, I gotta be something mighty awesome by now!    >:D
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: AJMag on August 11, 2012, 07:06:29 pm

For that matter, I was a pretty good 'un for the ladies when I was younger, I gotta be something mighty awesome by now!    >:D

You can't argue with logic like that!  :laugh:


If the wood makes a good arrow dried, but better cured, then will they still cure alright after they've been finished into an arrow, or does that depend on the finish itself and whether it can "breathe"?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 11, 2012, 08:04:18 pm
 :) :) ;)jw...the shaft is now at 702. That is about 42 grains in one day.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: Pat B on August 12, 2012, 12:48:25 am
AJ, yes it will. You will notice the spine will get stiffer until the shaft is well seasoned wheather it is a raw shaft or a finished arrow.
  John, another tid bit or two about shoot shafts is the natural taper of the shaft will reduce the effective spine weight by up to 10#, so if your arrow spines out at 50# it should shoot well from a 40# bow also. And with arrow length for each inch over 28" you can subtract 5# per inch. I draw 26" but cut my sourwood shoot arrows to 29" to 30" reducing the effective spine weight from say 50# to as low as 30#. Most shoot arrows I have made will spine quite heavy so the natural taper and additional length will put the effective spine weight right where I want it.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 12, 2012, 01:00:52 am
Pat I cut shafts for the following year today after  reading your post on seasoning.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: Pat B on August 12, 2012, 01:16:05 am
John, if you have access to plenty of the dogwood cut plenty. They make great trade items.  ;)        I usually bundle in groups of 15 similar shoots to a bundle. It is also nice to have extra seasoned shafts for future use.
  I hope to get a good supply of sourwood this year. The last few years the NCDOT bushhog have beat me to them. I collect most from a road bank. I do get a few from here on my property.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: BowEd on August 12, 2012, 09:28:35 am
That could be why after a year or so bows can gain draw weight a bit after curing.Not much but a bit.Those young fellas John had over to learn about bow making heard from me that your bow will gain a few pounds over the winter.Nice shafts John you got me looking going down the road for potential shaft wood.LOL.I planted 400 red twig dogwood this spring and things were starting fine then this summers' heat came in.Won't really know how much will survive until next spring.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 12, 2012, 09:36:00 am
Over night the shaft dropped 4 more grains.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 12, 2012, 01:25:34 pm
That could be why after a year or so bows can gain draw weight a bit after curing.Not much but a bit.Those young fellas John had over to learn about bow making heard from me that your bow will gain a few pounds over the winter.Nice shafts John you got me looking going down the road for potential shaft wood.LOL.I planted 400 red twig dogwood this spring and things were starting fine then this summers' heat came in.Won't really know how much will survive until next spring.
Where did you get 400 dogwoods from?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 13, 2012, 08:40:11 am
The shaft has gained some wt and is 707. It has been raining all night. I think a lot of water has been driven from these shafts so I am going to start shaping them up today.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: agd68 on August 13, 2012, 09:47:57 am
Can you speed the curing process up with a heatbox ?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 13, 2012, 10:47:09 am
I feel like I am running real fast with this project. I was thinking about how fast can one make an arrow from cut shoots primitive like. If you want to cut a shoot and fire  same day I would cut the shoots that died due to lack of light.
 One should be able to make an arrow that can take game in under an hour.
I think a fire hardened point with a two Fletch and a V cut notch could be made in no time provided the fire was already built. Scott said he could fire drill in 10 minutes. So maybe an arrow in 30 min. But we know that an arrow will work to 10yards with no fletching "bareshaft tuned". So that means a survival arrow could be made in 4 mins (would work great for frogs rabbits and other small game). It  takes me 15min to notch and tie a point. Depending on the game will determine time spent on the arrow.
When I fire my clay I will test drying on the fire. It will be interesting to see the wt and spine.

The more I learn the easier this gets. Funny how all you guys can turn the hardest project into a simple efficient and easy task. I have learned so much from this site.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 13, 2012, 01:06:36 pm
Really started working the shaft this morning.  I thought I would share a couple of my ideas on how to do that. I often start of palm straightening. Palm straightening only gets me so far then I start chasing bends and up and down a row. This is because 1 area is not strong enough to take the bend out of a stronger area so I use the edge of the countertop to hold it more secure. This allows me to create a bend in the area that I want. This was the arrow that had the dog leg from the previous photo
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 13, 2012, 01:12:33 pm
This had a dog leg but was not the worst.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 13, 2012, 03:20:12 pm
Well testing my next dye. I have staghorn berries,blackberries, and choke cherry brewing on the stove. This is where I am at after 10 minutes. My blackberry dye faded to almost nothing just like it did last year. I went looking for more blood root but it was done for the year. So I am going forward with what I have.  If it will boil down to a dye with some punch I think I will be a happy camper.
 Black berries taste great, staghorn taste like a sweet tart, but choke cherry taste badddddd. My book on Edible plants said it was ok  well maybe if you are starving. I did make a staghorn tea and it was very good.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 13, 2012, 03:58:58 pm
The colors looking good so far
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 13, 2012, 04:00:44 pm
I spilt the brew in half so that I didn't ruin all of as I boil it down.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: JW_Halverson on August 13, 2012, 10:23:16 pm
Only the first few mouthfuls of chokecherry have that bitter/astringency.  Quickly enough your taste adjusts to it and the sweetness lingers. 

Looking forward to seeing how heat curing works on the shafts, John !
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 12:04:59 am
Only the first few mouthfuls of chokecherry have that bitter/astringency.  Quickly enough your taste adjusts to it and the sweetness lingers. 

Looking forward to seeing how heat curing works on the shafts, John !
No   no   and NO. As you know my wife spoils me daily with her epicurean delights.
 I am pretty sure my day dreaming about her food while starving would satisfy my hunger better than choking down even one more of what from these days forward I will refer to as
"vile tree scat"
I will let you know how the heat treating goes.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: AJMag on August 14, 2012, 12:20:43 am
My interest is peaked. I shall have to find some of this "vile tree scat" somewhere. I'm pretty sure I've tried worse things.

That is a nice color in those shafts.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: JW_Halverson on August 14, 2012, 12:44:02 am
Vile tree scat?  Maybe Bevan can make coffee outa it?

I'm wondering these maybe aren't really chokecherries you are munching if they are that bad. 
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 01:03:32 am
Mmmmmm not good. It did taste sweet but the after taste was badddd
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: JW_Halverson on August 14, 2012, 01:06:12 am
If the stand of those "chokecherries" (and I am not sure, because the leaves look good, but the bark doesn't) is tightly grown up, bush-hog 'em to ground level and trim back any trees to open up the canopy.  Next spring a hundred shoots will race each other for the sun...and become an arrow shaft plantation!
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: BowEd on August 14, 2012, 01:07:06 am
Go them from the Iowa state nursery in Ames,Ia.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 10:51:09 am
My dye is looking great this morning. So now it is time to cut the shaft. The wt of the uncut shaft was 702 grains so it gained some wt. I thought this did not seem right. So as i cut down the shaft I put the meter to the wood and it read 11%. That is low but not the 9% I thought I would see. I think the outside dried down below 9% in the sun and then picked back up the difference during the humid weather we have had the last couple of days. I continued to spine the arrow to the same measurment as my good arrow that I like so well. I will lightly sand them and the stain with the staghorn dye. The new shaft wt unstained is 562 grains.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: Stringman on August 14, 2012, 11:11:22 am
John, when u and I were talking yesterday you mentioned something havin a "mordant" quality. Can you elavorate on this a touch?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 11:27:15 am
John, when u and I were talking yesterday you mentioned something havin a "mordant" quality. Can you elavorate on this a touch?
A mordant helps to fix or bite the dye to the fiber or cell. Native americans used staghorn as a mordant  to fix bloodroot dye to leather. I am hoping this will work with the dye I made yesterday. We will know in about 3 weeks.
My arrow is not as cured as I hoped but I am going forward with the dye to see if it works early in the process. 
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 11:37:46 am
Here is the first coat
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 11:40:54 am
What we are shootin for is the color on the left test stick.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 11:46:44 am
I am going to scrape the bands to get white and make black from an egg yoke and charcoal to make lines around the bands. Thinking about tung oil "natural" as a sealer. Although I was reading about a sap from a sumac tree that can dry oils. Maybe a project for next year.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 11:52:27 am
Scott here is the blackberry only arrow that was deep purple only a few weeks ago. I knew from last year that the color would change but wow it really is a big difference. I think that the color in the sumac should bite and hold on better. By the way is the poke berry you used changing?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 12:14:20 pm
I want to backtrack here for a minute and talk about the dye in the pan. I split it so I would destroy all of it but that which I first cooked down was still giving good color so I boiled all of it down an inch from the bottom. I had started with a full pan that you saw in the photo.

Also I did not talk about working the arrow shaft with primitive tools.  The nock is a self nock but it is standard in most ways as you have see made on this site. I could have used a flint tool to make the nock but I used a  metal file.  It takes about 10 minutes longer to do it with flint. When thinning the shaft a flint tool works just as well as a modern metal blade.  I have done it both ways but in this post I wanted to focus on the dogwood and dye aspect.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 12:24:50 pm
I have four arrows to make so maybe I will work one with flint.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 12:30:22 pm
So here is the tool I have used a lot on shafts.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: ratshooter on August 14, 2012, 12:42:30 pm
I have to say those are some pretty dang straight arrows looking goos so far!
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 12:51:35 pm
Here is some real time data this is done and maches the other shafts all done with flint.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 01:53:24 pm
Thank you ratshooter!
Here is what this dye/stain looks like after a few coats. I kinda like them but time will tell if it will hold up.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: AJMag on August 14, 2012, 05:45:50 pm
I actually really like that light cherry red color in the comparison pic higher up there after the first coat. The darker red wouldn't be bad either but it looks a little rough, not as smooth of an appearance of the lighter one. Is there a reason behind that?

You kind of lost me with the talk about the notch, then jumping to the file to remove bark. What did I miss there? Were you referring to the a notch in the tool to remove bark, or a notch made in the wood? I haven't really watched any other shoot arrow builds yet so I'm slightly ignorant in what you referred to as having seen made elsewhere on this site.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 07:03:40 pm
sorry my mistake nock is what I mean not notch. I will go back and fix it in the post
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 07:15:20 pm
Ajmag I will post a pic of the nock when I get home. As for the color I think I am building it up with the expectation that it will fade. It is the frist time for this brew so its new to me.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: AJMag on August 14, 2012, 07:59:42 pm
Gotchya. It was really throwing me through a loop there. Keep up the good work, I for one, am learning a lot.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 14, 2012, 11:17:14 pm
Good news here the natural tung oil did not dissolve the stain. I am very happy about that.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 15, 2012, 10:55:27 am
I am always thinking about different way of doing things. I was looking through my rock for color and remembered a test I did two years ago on a stone that appeared to have iron in it. I believe that when heated it oxidized and I think this is red iron oxide. Anyway it works great. It is very powdery and easy to apply and draw with. I coated it with the tung oil and it made a nice stain.   very nice discovery and gives me orange as part of my palette.
There are two stones in this picture the one on the left was heated the other was not.
As far as the berry stain it is still drying and this put those three arrows on hold. So I am going to spine another one and do it in red iron with black and white cresting.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 15, 2012, 10:58:45 am
I think orange turkey tail feather would look real cool on that type of shaft.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: Whitebeam on August 15, 2012, 11:05:53 am
I want to see how you intend to meso/neo (not paleo - wrong period!) waterproof that stain. I have a friend who tried some wonderful pigment and egg painting on a set of arrows - they looked wonderful, as his work always does. Then it rained :-(

Peter
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 15, 2012, 11:14:33 am
I want to see how you intend to meso/neo (not paleo - wrong period!) waterproof that stain. I have a friend who tried some wonderful pigment and egg painting on a set of arrows - they looked wonderful, as his work always does. Then it rained :-(

Peter
My plan was to use the tung or linseed as they are natural. If i had time I was going to use the sap from a sumac as I have read that it is an oil dryer. The question then would be which oil. I am open for suggeation however.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 15, 2012, 11:31:17 am
This was an arrow I made 2 years ago. The black stripes are made with egg tempra. Blood root was used for the orange. It's saw a lot of extreme hunting situation. No sealer was used.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 15, 2012, 11:50:54 am
It did fade and the black on the crest took a beating. I hope to seal the new arrows somehow. I wonder if smoke will water proof it in the same way that it does with leather.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: tanner on August 15, 2012, 01:10:49 pm
Whereabouts are you getting this dogwood in Iowa? I didn't see you mention. I was thinking I might have saw some of this the other day while checking my deer camera.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: JackCrafty on August 15, 2012, 01:44:57 pm
Awesome job on this build-a-long!  I'm watching closely...   8)

A few of things, if I may:

Natural dyes from plants will always change color when exposed to UV rays.  Mineral pigments (like the iron oxide you are using) will not fade.

Smoking a hide will not waterproof it.  That is a common misconception.  Smoking a hide makes it smell good and helps it to stay a little more pliable after washing.  It will need to be re-smoked and re-stretched after each wash.

Smoking wood will not waterproof it either.  However, if you use smoke that comes from a fire that is burning a lot of fat or grease, a film of grease will deposit itself on the wood and offer a little protection.

Most historical arrows were painted with mineral pigment water colors and would need to be re-painted after getting wet.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 15, 2012, 03:15:24 pm
Whereabouts are you getting this dogwood in Iowa? I didn't see you mention. I was thinking I might have saw some of this the other day while checking my deer camera.
hi tanner I am in Burlington
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 15, 2012, 04:59:15 pm
Awesome job on this build-a-long!  I'm watching closely...   8)

A few of things, if I may:

Natural dyes from plants will always change color when exposed to UV rays.  Mineral pigments (like the iron oxide you are using) will not fade.

Smoking a hide will not waterproof it.  That is a common misconception.  Smoking a hide makes it smell good and helps it to stay a little more pliable after washing.  It will need to be re-smoked and stretched after each wash.

Smoking wood will not waterproof it either.  However, if you use smoke that comes from a fire that is burning a lot of fat or grease, a film of grease will deposit itself on the wood and offer a little protection.

Most historical arrows were painted with mineral pigment water colors and would need to be re-painted after getting wet.
You most likely right on all accounts. On the leather that is smoked there is a deposit of creosote on the fiber that would resist water but certainly  would not make it water proof as I stated. The Hide that I had at the College presentation this spring got soaked by the rain.  I was sure it was ruined but I dried it out pulled a couple of times and it was good to go. I did not tan this hide but Beadman did. I guess I was think in terms of it not destroying the object. I was only wondering if there might be a similar benefit to this process. Maybe there was a process that happened naturally like a set of arrows hanging in a hut heated with wood that was often exposed to smoke. When I make charcoal there is a heavy residue that deposits on the side of the pipe that is impossible to clean easily. Anyway that was just me thinking out loud for other people to shoot down or add too. So thank you for the input and you are right it would not water proof it.

As for the dye fading do to UV that makes sense,  do we see a lot of brightly colored things sitting around that has not been broken down by UV light. I was hoping to find a mix that would not break down as fast. I was hoping that the effects that plant dyes have on cloth also be useful with the arrows. My thinking was that the Acid in the Sumac plant could bite the cells of the dogwood shoot and help deliver other dyes (black berry and chock berries) into those cells as well. I have twice tried the black berry and know that I get about three weeks of color from that plant. Six months to a year before doing another application would be great in my world.

The pigments added to the egg yoke seems to be water resistant and holds up fairly good but would need to be repainted after a year.

I often over think a project (that's the cool part of the hobby for me)
In an idea world these arrow should have take game before the years end and their longevity should not be over estimated by modern people (me).
However...Egg tempera take 6 months to a year to become waterproof. The yoke is made up of water and oil. At first the water leaves and feels dry but chemical drying of the water and the harden of the oil continues for months. This may be why whitebean's friend experienced a catastrophic end to his arrows when they became wet. This is a reminder that time makes big changes in the materials we use. Tung oil take months also to cure.

I wonder what my dye would do mixed with egg. Egg was also used to waterproof ink drawings early on.
Maybe I am making arrows for next year.
The dye could be coated with the egg yoke and left to dry for a year. Question will there be any color at that point.

I dont hunt in the rain anyway.
fun stuff to think about.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: Whitebeam on August 15, 2012, 05:57:04 pm
I was off then to Google "cartospoic", then I realised that your fingers have similar problems to mine sometimes! ;-)

I do keep meaning to come back to pine resin dissolved in turpentine as a form of varnish. I did try spruce resin dissolved in this way previously, but that stayed tacky for ever. I'm wondering if pine resin would dry faster?

Peter
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 15, 2012, 06:29:14 pm
Whitebean let's try all of these ideas I have 5 arrows. I will hunt with them all season and see which ones hold up. We can number them so we don't lose track of which one is which
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: Whitebeam on August 15, 2012, 07:45:52 pm
I'll get the pine resin soaking in turps tomorrow (once I've taken the car for service, done some shopping, walked the dogs, painted the walls in daughter #1's bedroom, cooked lunch, tidied up (again) after all those females in my life have gone out for the afternoon ... hey, I'm glad I'm on a leave period and can take things easy!  ;).

No hunting here alas - unless you want to chance spending time in one of Her Majesty's high security luxury hotels.  :o

Peter
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 15, 2012, 10:25:46 pm
Ok your in the UK...how is Phillip doing?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: Pat B on August 16, 2012, 12:04:01 am
Whitebeam, I like to start with hard brittle pitch and dissolve it in alcohol. I use it primarily to seal sinew wraps on arrows but have sealed the shafts on some too. If you start off with hard brittle pitch the resulting "varnish" will have a hard finish after the alcohol evaporates. If you use soft pitch the "varnish" will be soft and take a while to harden.
  Marc St Louis used spruce pitch and turpentine when he heat treats whitewood bows. After he heats the wood sufficently he paints on the mixture and the wood soaks it up. He suggests that the mixture is soaked into the cells and hardening them as it cools. I did this on a few bows and liked the results.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: Whitebeam on August 16, 2012, 04:19:11 am
Ok your in the UK...how is Phillip doing?
He seemed ok when I saw him at the Olympics, but I guess time is catching up with him as it does with us all.

Current news reports suggest that he is doing well.

Peter
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: Whitebeam on August 16, 2012, 04:22:54 am
Whitebeam, I like to start with hard brittle pitch and dissolve it in alcohol. I use it primarily to seal sinew wraps on arrows but have sealed the shafts on some too. If you start off with hard brittle pitch the resulting "varnish" will have a hard finish after the alcohol evaporates. If you use soft pitch the "varnish" will be soft and take a while to harden.

Hard and brittle pine resin is what I have - I'll definitely give it another go. Alas the only alcohol I have is the nasty purple coloured stuff - I'll carry on trying with turps for now.

Marc St Louis used spruce pitch and turpentine when he heat treats whitewood bows. After he heats the wood sufficently he paints on the mixture and the wood soaks it up. He suggests that the mixture is soaked into the cells and hardening them as it cools. I did this on a few bows and liked the results.

I have tried this,  but didn't notice any difference from plain dry heat treating.

Peter
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: BowEd on August 16, 2012, 02:20:25 pm
A word about smoke and its waterproofing and pest proofing capabilities.Words are misconstrooed here.A white brain tanned hide I call a dressed hide,soft but suseptible to water and bugs.The white hide smoked I call cured.It does not make it waterproof as in a thompson water seal type of repellent.If smoked dark enough the first time it does not need to be resmoked but just scuffed around a bit to be softened after being wet.Smoke definitely repells pests good.That's why newly cut shafts bundled and hung up at the smoke flap will not have bug infestation.A natural waterproofing on shafts done by Pat B to me would be the right ticket here.Making your dye job a bit darker John and using those oxide dyes.See why the misconception of a male Indian not working as hard as a squaw is a farce.LOL.We are just novices trying to recreate authenticities here.The banter on this thread is great.The one fella I know about as an authority on all of this is the Prarie Wolf,and he has a series of books on these subjects.He has taken it to a tried and true level.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 16, 2012, 08:45:59 pm
I have never heard of anyone coating a shaft with an egg so this is a test. I simply coated the shaft with the yoke. I then placed it in the sun to flash dry. Remember this should take 6 months to dry all the way. The dye did mix with the egg. I had to smooth the paint out after appling. I feel like it would be good to add the dye to the egg. Anyway I had to clean the white off again. After working the shaft I mixed up the black. It was made from willow wood charcoal. This charcoal is fine because the particles have a large surface area and can be ground smooth. The large surface area is helpful because it gives the binder something to hold onto. The egg yoke is added to the charcoal  and mixed till smooth.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 16, 2012, 11:32:48 pm
The next one we will coat with resin and alcohol. Also going to try to make a white paint from some of the shell after I burn it.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 17, 2012, 09:31:54 am
The egg yoke finished arrow feels very oily but the surface seems stable. This is good because the water is leaving the yoke covering by evaporation  and the oil that remains should harden over time... I hope. 
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 17, 2012, 10:56:09 am
Just finished the pine coat but added a pinch of wax to prevent the the paint from cracking. Read an article about tempera and the transition to oil. The idea was to mix egg, oil, wax, pigment, water and dryer. The wax prevented cracking and the oil helped spread the paint. I am going to mix egg, pine, wax, alcohol, and pigment. This should make an interesting paint
Below is pigment scrapped from a rock I cooked. The pictures should tell the story. Clean up was hard so rubber gloves and paint outdoors.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: JackCrafty on August 17, 2012, 12:17:30 pm
Great information!  I really like the look of that charcoal & egg yolk paint.

The easiest way I found to clean up pine rosin based paint or glue is to use a heat gun to melt  the paint/glue and wipe with a clean dry cloth.  You can follow up by applying straight bleach with a Q-tip if there is a stain.  Doesn't work on cloth or leather, of course.   ;D
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 17, 2012, 01:24:16 pm
Great information!  I really like the look of that charcoal & egg yolk paint.

The easiest way I found to clean up pine rosin based paint or glue is to use a heat gun to melt  the paint/glue and wipe with a clean dry cloth.  You can follow up by applying straight bleach with a Q-tip if there is a stain.  Doesn't work on cloth or leather, of course.   ;D
Thanks for the tip! I think the dye will change. I don't like the way the other arrow shaft that has dye only is reacting to humidity changes. It seem to want to attract water and get tacky.

Here are some thoughts;
1. The dye takes time to make and when egg is added it loossens -  a possible solution is to add the dye to the yoke and then apply like paint.

2. Mixing the  charcoal with the egg worked amazing in the past and is working great this time - I might lightly coat with a layer of pine and alcohol in a week.

3. Making the red iron paint was easy and the application was a walk in the park. The surface could be handled soon after application but was not cured yet. The reason the wax was added was because I added the pigment to the  varnish that Pat recommended. I thought the pigment might make the mixture thicker and more susceptible to cracking.

4. I like how difficult the cleanup was and very water proof the paint appears to be. I still want to see the effect of time in the durability of the paint before jumpping to conclusions

5. My plan is to carry all of these arrows this winter while hunting to see which one preforms best in the field. I don't hunt in the rain but all other weather will not be ruled out. I do hunt in a light rain but cover my gear with hats and under my coat while storms passes.

Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwod arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 17, 2012, 05:56:18 pm
Left to right. Remember the cresting is not done yet

1. Egg over dye
2. Tung over dye
3. Pine mixed red iron
4. Pine over dye

The best dye color is #2 so far.
The black tempera and red iron look great.

I have ideas for three other colors;
      a. Yellow
      b. White
      c. Burnt umber
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 17, 2012, 06:54:49 pm
Here is yellow and black pine paint without the wax as crest on the red iron pine with wax. The area that was painted yellow was scrapped to the wood and painted thin to get a yellow glow .
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 17, 2012, 06:59:41 pm
I am going to make one look like a snake all down the whole shaft
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 17, 2012, 07:11:59 pm
Interesting note on the black paint made from pine is a dull where as the tempera black is shiny.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 17, 2012, 07:18:27 pm
Forgot to say where yellow came from. Big soft yellow rock from the creek.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Stringman on August 17, 2012, 07:48:26 pm
I wonder if bears are attracted to egg/berry covered popcicles??  ::) You are definitely not bunkin with me in Colorado next year!  :o ;D

Scott
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 17, 2012, 08:44:25 pm
I thought you were getting a bear tag?  They are lolli pops bear spears.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Adam on August 17, 2012, 11:17:11 pm
Thanks very much for taking the time to document all your findings. I've really enjoyed this thread.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 18, 2012, 05:55:39 pm
Thanks very much for taking the time to document all your findings. I've really enjoyed this thread.
Your welcome! Today I worked the last shaft up and carved nocks on 2 arrows. I started a fire an dropped a couple shells in to test for paint properties and for the native pottery project.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 18, 2012, 07:16:06 pm
Sometimes things look good and I am happy that I was able to produce a white powder. I think it is chalk have not googled it yet. If you look ar the point if the knife you will see white flakes. These white flakes were collected and worked to powder. This was very easy. I may also have black chalk. Will make paint tonight.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Pat B on August 19, 2012, 01:13:04 am
John, this is a very interesting and informative thread. Thanks for gathering and presenting this so we all can learn.   Have you considered an article for PA Magazine? I'm sure Ed Ingold would love to publish an article on this subject.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 19, 2012, 01:23:12 am
OK here is the deal with white. Looks like I am making white wash so here is what I am going to try;
1. The calcium carbonate was cooked to calcium oxide
2. When adding water I will have calcium hydroxide that will sit over night to slake becoming quick lime mix
3. I am not adding salt or hide glue rather the egg will be used as the binder.
4. The new material should become calcium carbonate when exposed to co2.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 19, 2012, 01:38:42 am
This very powerful CAREFUL!!!!!!!!! Look at the pH of this stuff. This will burn you.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 19, 2012, 01:47:56 am
I forgot to add that the table spoon of water that I added was hot.

Hey Pat maybe when I get all the testing done and hunt for awhile I write something up. I keep getting more and more ideas hard to know where to focus.

Well if the egg binder does not work I do have some hide glue from a deer skin I can use.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 19, 2012, 01:55:33 am
Another observation about the shaft that was worked with the flint. This was the shaft that was painted with the red iron. Anyway it has grooves running up and down as a result of the flint edge chipping. Beadman was going to groove an arrow because he read that it helped to keep it straight. I think these grooves were naturally made due to the wear of the tool. This does not mean it was not beneficial in some way.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 19, 2012, 11:18:35 am
Here what the white is starting to look like. It will get better with time. Longer it sees co2 the more white it will become.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Pat B on August 19, 2012, 12:12:44 pm
John, with the information you are coming up with you could write a series of articles culminatine with an article about successful hunt using the arrows you are making.
  Send James Parker(Robustus) a PM about carriers for pigment paints. He has been using them to decorate the Asiatic horn bows he has been building for the last few years. I know one of the carriers is the juice from prickley pear cactus. He contacted me to ask if I knew where he could get some prickley pear. I told him to try his local grocery store in the Hispanic food section.  ;)
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 19, 2012, 03:39:39 pm
John, with the information you are coming up with you could write a series of articles culminatine with an article about successful hunt using the arrows you are making.
  Send James Parker(Robustus) a PM about carriers for pigment paints. He has been using them to decorate the Asiatic horn bows he has been building for the last few years. I know one of the carriers is the juice from prickley pear cactus. He contacted me to ask if I knew where he could get some prickley pear. I told him to try his local grocery store in the Hispanic food section.  ;)
Ok I will do it. And I will give jame a PM.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Whitebeam on August 19, 2012, 04:18:20 pm
I read somewhere about blood used as a sealant - might add colour too?

Edit: Here http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,29702.msg393260.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,29702.msg393260.html) I think...

Further edit: Just noticed milk-paint too: http://www.earthpigments.com/casein/milk-lime-paint.cfm (http://www.earthpigments.com/casein/milk-lime-paint.cfm)

Peter
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 19, 2012, 04:51:53 pm
Yes that skim milk must have some oil in it. That is why I have been adding some egg to the mix.

I need to make some notes here on the white paint.
1. The mix I used was hide glue made from deer hide glue and egg.
2 You need to keep the lime very wet so it has a head of water on top. My problem was how to get the paint thick. The solution was simple. You double boil the hide glue to 140. Then add the lime and stir till thickness is achieved by way of dehydration. Once the paint/glue is close remove and cool to 90 then add paint slowly to egg. Start painting, as mix cools it will start to harden because the hide glue proteins are reforming chains.  The paint will not look white at first and that is OK because a chemical change with the CO2 in the air needs to take place.
Things I don't know yet...can clear pine be used to top coat. My thoughts are yes

Notes on brush the binding of paint brush fills with pigment and makes the brush difficult to use. Solution to ....mix with stick and then dip brush half way into paint
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 19, 2012, 08:03:25 pm
Hey I could use a little help here. I like the way the tail feathers have three color and pattern changes in them toward the tip. I know that these have a lot of potently if used the right way. Would any of you have examples of arrows fletched with tail feather that use the feather all the way out to the tip. I would like to see how others have designed theirs before I experiment. I like a three fletch
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: BowEd on August 20, 2012, 01:15:18 am
I hope you are documenting this to some degree John.Sometime this winter when cabin fever sets in you can organize it.This would be useful for more people than you think.I'm glad your motivated enough to follow through with everything.Those turkey tail feathers would look nice on those shafts.I'm gonna nickname you the mad chemist pretty soon....LOL.Keep the faith.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Whitebeam on August 20, 2012, 02:25:21 am
Dunno about the fletch, but did you see the bow backed with such feathers? Stunning piece of work!. I just wish I had a box full so that I could give it a go.

Peter
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Stringman on August 20, 2012, 10:45:41 am
Looking good, John. If youre wantin to use the end of the feather then don't split the quill. Instead use a sharp knife and cut off the feather on one side.  That will give you more spine to work with.

 I agree that will look good on those shafts, but I think 2 fletch will probably fly equally well. Since you have already put the work into bare shaft tuning, fletch is mostly just asthetic at this point (plus a decelerant to a small degree.)

Scott
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 20, 2012, 11:48:55 am
Thanks Scott. Her is an updated color list

color list:
stains I have made.

Brown Walnut- from walnut shells
rose red- Staghorn sumac, wild black cherry (not the choke berry this is why it tasted bad), blackberries.
purple, from the wild black cherry and blackberries

mineral paints
Burnt Sienna- from Red iron oxide stones found in red clay deposits
black- from ground charcoal
Burnt umber- should be able to mix the charcoal and red iron
white- from processed shells
yellow ochre- I found this in the mud rock above the limestone deposits

Upon reading more I have found that the geodes of this region may contain an abundance of minerals that color could be made from....stay tuned going to write an article and see if PA likes it.

so I will wrap this post up with a couple of pictures of a finished arrown with a point on it here in a couple more days.

There is just multiple combinations
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: BowEd on August 20, 2012, 11:58:31 am
Yep looking forward to the pics.Now don't lose em OK.......LOL.Or just lose one into the boiler region of a deer.Big accomplishment in my book.I know I'll start calling you the medicine man.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: JackCrafty on August 20, 2012, 01:14:47 pm
Here's a picture of some roughly trimmed turkey tail feathers for my "stone age privet" arrow.  I ended up trimming the light color off the very end because I found the fletching a little too large if I left it on.

http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,12020.15.html

Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 20, 2012, 04:54:01 pm
Thank you Patrick. This was very helpful.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: JackCrafty on August 20, 2012, 06:59:10 pm
 :)
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: AJMag on August 20, 2012, 07:33:39 pm
This sure turned into a heck of a build along.  Still not sure how it went from dogwood building to homemade color pigments, but it's pretty cool. Definitely going to have to reread a few time to let it soak all in and combine with some searches to solidify with what I haven't learned yet relating to the color making.  But I agree that this could make a pretty good series of articles for the mag if you got a little more in depth in each step and each different type of process you went through. All in all, great read!
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 20, 2012, 08:52:58 pm
Lol welcome to my brain! I thought it would be cool to show you how I made arrows but it became a run away train in my head. This post shows how there are so many steps to what looks like a simple arrow. Gee I even spared you a 10 page post on making an abo point lol. I made a special point for this shaft because it need to be real sharp and long to go with the long feathers.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 20, 2012, 09:03:15 pm
Here is the point I made this afternoon. It is 125g
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 21, 2012, 11:08:02 am
Notched shaft with arrowhead
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 22, 2012, 06:33:28 pm
Just about done only thing left is the fletching
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Pat B on August 22, 2012, 09:04:36 pm
John, that beauty is ready to draw some Iowa deer blood for sure.  Great build along!!!  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: JackCrafty on August 22, 2012, 09:42:24 pm
Very cool!   8)
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Huntinfool on August 22, 2012, 09:50:20 pm
Thanks for making this thread John.

It is very timely for me I just started on some DW shoots I got from crooketarrow. This is my first time making shoot arrows.

I've made custom cedars and shot traditional for more years than I care to admit. Along with a little help from CA this will help me greatly!

OBTW Super good lookin' arrow a flint point!

Thanks again,
~HF~
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: AJMag on August 23, 2012, 12:14:33 am
Wicked nice stick.  Ready to see how your fletching job will look.  So, to be clear, those are the recently cut shafts, not some that you already had drying before hand?  What was the total time since you cut them? Curious about the total turn around time.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 23, 2012, 12:25:50 am
Yes AJMag this was cut 12 days ago. The first one I made before this was only 4 or 5 days old. But as Pat B stated the older the better. If I was not writing this post the arrow could be made in 7 to 8 days.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: AJMag on August 23, 2012, 01:00:38 am
Pretty interesting regardless. Is it retaining its straightness alright for still being that fresh?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: BowEd on August 23, 2012, 11:53:54 am
Super build along John.Wish I could take credit for such a good looking totally primitive arrow.....LOL.From cut time to finished shaft is fast.I still have my week old shoots tied in bundles.Plan on bringing them in this winter by the wood stove to do some cabin fever activity.Now you preshot this shaft with a field point to bare shaft tune it correct?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 23, 2012, 02:48:46 pm
yep and It shot great! I did not glue it on I just pushed it through the target. I only tapered it enough to hold the point.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Jodocus on August 23, 2012, 04:04:48 pm
Man, this is ever interesting and inspiring, thanks alot for posting.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 23, 2012, 04:45:36 pm
Man, this is ever interesting and inspiring, thanks alot for posting.
Thank you! stay tuned I am fletching tomorrow!
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Pappy on August 24, 2012, 08:18:40 am
Thanks John,very well put together. Beautiful arrow. :)
   Pappy
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 24, 2012, 10:43:00 am
Many of you have seen feathers separated by using a rock but a lot of beginners have not. All you do is hit the center of the quill with a rock all the way to the top. You then simply pull it apart. I clean the quill up by scraping it with a knife so it sits flush on the arrow.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 24, 2012, 10:47:28 am
Completed feathers ready for tonight.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: sadiejane on August 24, 2012, 12:39:58 pm
what a great build along.
really have enjoyed the primitive stain/paint part
just started studying primitive paints more intensively this year.
really am fascinated.
there are lots of materials in the area to make paints and stains from
picked up a good book last winter by a guy names paul davis campbell
the book is called earth pigments and paints of the california indians
tho it is very specific to california
the techniques, processes and materials used for binders are more general and were used far and wide on this continent
highly recommend the book if you are interested in native paints and pigments
he has a website and you can purchase the book directly from him
(my preference over giving $ to outside businesses such as amazon, when its an option)

now what i need to do is more time in the field(so to speak) and less time reading.....
so far the only stain i have made is from boiled walnut husks
its a lovely stain but only one...
have gathered a few rocks that i believe will make orangish or ochre colors
but havent actually done it - yet

thanks ever so much for posting this
and creating the discussion
would like to see it continue
and of course, look forward to your completed arrow(s)
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 24, 2012, 07:52:32 pm
Thanks sadiejane
I am going to try and ferment the stain. I don't like the sugar tacky feel that it leaves I'm hoping that the alcohol will help remove the sugar.

 I made milkweed string to tie the feathers on in the front and I will use sinew you to tie the feathers in the back. I did this to demonstrate both techniques
 .
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 24, 2012, 10:48:26 pm
Stringmans knife cutting milkweed. It worked great. I am writing an article for PA on milkweed so I wont go into great detail but it makes great string.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 25, 2012, 03:03:25 am
A shot of the milkweed fiber thread bindings
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 25, 2012, 03:10:29 am
It is late so I will keep this short. Thank you all for following me during this process and all of you input. Thank you pat b and jackcrafty for your additional help. I am going to do a much larger study of these paints and do a little article maybe.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Jodocus on August 25, 2012, 03:34:44 am
A round of applause for these arrows and the thread!  :)


Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Josh B on August 25, 2012, 03:53:44 am
John, well, just WOW!  This has been one of the best build alongs that I have had the pleasure of following.  You have covered a lot of materials and techniques in this thread and yet it was so easy to follow that even I could understand it all.  Very informative!  Thank you for sharing this quest for knowledge with us.  Josh
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: crooketarrow on August 25, 2012, 08:11:53 am
   Dog woods my favoret by far. I cut, make,trade .sale 100's each spring and summer.
  There HARD, TUFF AS NAILS ,HEAVEY BUT NOT REAL HEAVEY like say HICKORY. Stays stright when finished. I can't find a flaw in them.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: BowEd on August 25, 2012, 09:54:27 am
A big WOW from me too.They look super with the fletching and everything else you did with those arrows.You'd be the fella in the tipi camp to teach the young bucks how to make arrows that's for sure.They would part ways as you walked through camp not wanting to piss you off........LOL.Beautiful job John.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Huntinfool on August 25, 2012, 06:11:21 pm
Great Thanks a lot John, very well done super arrows too good to hunt with! LOL!

I'd hang that on the wall.

~HF~
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: BowEd on August 27, 2012, 09:02:26 am
Say it's too bad there is'nt a contest for arrows of the month that are totally primitive these I would say would win the voting.You have definitely proven a person can make arrows that look super and are primitive too.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: sadiejane on August 27, 2012, 10:48:21 am
Say it's too bad there is'nt a contest for arrows of the month that are totally primitive these I would say would win the voting.You have definitely proven a person can make arrows that look super and are primitive too.

arrows of the month!
like it
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: seabass on August 27, 2012, 08:32:43 pm
i would be down with an arrow of the month thread.lets do it Cipriano.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 28, 2012, 09:22:02 am

highly recommend the book if you are interested in native paints and pigments
he has a website and you can purchase the book directly from him
(my preference over giving $ to outside businesses such as amazon, when its an option

thanks ever so much for posting this
and creating the discussion
would like to see it continue
and of course, look forward to your completed arrow(s)
Hey I ordered this book it sounds great. I have been reading a ton of info at work about paint. I think I am going to do a large scale experiment on paint.

Hmmmmm arrow of the month could be fun.. Should I post it???
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Pappy on August 28, 2012, 09:32:23 am
Very well done,the arrows are sweet and should to a number on a Willey old buck this fall.  :)
   Pappy
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: BowEd on August 28, 2012, 12:44:59 pm
Don't know if they have a catagory for that.....LOL.Could be you might have to make a set of a dozen or so ya think?........LOL.Hey I got this composite bow tamed down here but it will be awhile shooting it in and finish work on it to be ready for pictures.Are you still game for helping out posting it?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 28, 2012, 01:13:54 pm
sure am
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: killir duck on August 28, 2012, 08:23:50 pm
excellent build-along, i will be coming back to look at this one later tons of good info here. thanks for taking the time to teach us old farts something new
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 29, 2012, 10:11:17 am
As you folks know I like to study the how, why, and the unknown of a topic. Sometimes in more detail that others want to know. I am currently working on three projects the paint, milkweed bow string and native pottery experiments. The paint project for arrow may prove to be the most complicated of all three. Many combinations are possible from acid to base from stain to minerial ,water to oil and so on. Many issues also relate to health concerns which are areas that we need to be careful.
There are processes that seem gross like blood, eyeball and boiled fats solution that some might find off pulling but have been lost with time. With just the small list above and their possible combination the task seems large. The addition of heat and how much and when adds addition variables  . Not all things done in the past do we have record of so this is going to be an investigation of possibility.
Thanks for all the ideas and please keep adding to this post about what you have heard about paint. I will try to include as many ideas as possible.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 29, 2012, 10:28:26 am
A well made arrow is good for your soul.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: JackCrafty on August 29, 2012, 11:13:28 am
The subject of paints is something I've studied too.  One of the best places to learn about "primitive" paints is Mexico.  Many Native Americans there still use the old formulas for painting pottery, dying plant fibers, etc.

The ancient Egyptians and Greeks mastered the art of making paints early on.  There is a wealth of information on paints from these cultures if you look carefully.

Here's one of the best web sites I know for obtaining "primitive" paint ingredients and information:

---http://www.naturalpigments.com/
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 29, 2012, 11:31:44 am
Thanks Patrick. Just talked with a physics teacher here on campus he is going to help with setting up the math part of the experiment. With so many combinations looks like the materials will need to be limited. Thinking of making this an Iowa midwest based study. The California based book is on its way and that should be helpful. There are a few other issues like the seasonal timing of plants so it might take over a year to have things running on this one. I want to document the havesting and mining so that others can repeat this in the future. I am hunting down a minerial book that helps you identify them based on heat colors. I think it is important to identify a few safe colors to work with.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: anasazi on August 29, 2012, 11:44:52 am
What diameter did those arrows turn out to be?
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 29, 2012, 03:36:32 pm
They start at about ll/32 near the tip and taper to 5/16 near the nock.  I think this is correct but I will check when I get home.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 29, 2012, 06:25:01 pm
Just when you thought this post was done. Feathers...just learned something cool on my feathers for the second arrow and I thought you might find it cooool. Maybe the guys that have done this before know but it is coooool. Anyway the bend in a feather can be an issue when fletching so this is why a Japanese man I saw in a youtube video burns the bottom of the feather. It is not in English so I thought he was just leveling the feather but in fact it makes it straight as well. The feather on the left was not burnt and the one on the right was burnt.
 
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Huntinfool on August 29, 2012, 06:30:17 pm
Yelp that's coool alright been puttin' feathers on arrows for close to 40 years off and on and never heard of that.

~HF~
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: JackCrafty on August 29, 2012, 06:31:46 pm
Very cool! 8)
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Huntinfool on August 29, 2012, 07:52:20 pm
Wonder if you lightly sand the scorched part off if it would stay straight?

~HF~
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 29, 2012, 08:23:14 pm
Well I think we should try it on the next one.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: boughnut on August 30, 2012, 12:47:57 pm
very inspiring I have been looking every where I can for some dog wood shoots since I first saw this post.  Your arrows are just plain awsome and an excellent build along to boot.  I am teaching my self and my wife how to make primitive arrows from shoots right now.  I was thinking of using some blood wood saw dust and osage saw dust for die, does this work well? 
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 30, 2012, 01:19:33 pm
Wonder if you lightly sand the scorched part off if it would stay straight?

~HF~
when I sanded the feather it curved again. So I guess that sanding should be done before the heat treatment.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 30, 2012, 01:24:06 pm
very inspiring I have been looking every where I can for some dog wood shoots since I first saw this post.  Your arrows are just plain awesome and an excellent build along to boot.  I am teaching my self and my wife how to make primitive arrows from shoots right now.  I was thinking of using some blood wood saw dust and osage saw dust for die, does this work well?
Interesting idea about the osage..once I used it to dye leather and it did turn it yellow. I have not tried the blood wood dust so not sure what you would get.

I am fermenting the berry juice that I used in the first part of the project to see if it works better as a wine stain. The idea  here is to remove the sugar that seems to attract water.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: crooketarrow on August 30, 2012, 03:44:25 pm
  I've had a good bet to do and I've been on other posts here lately. Iowa, you've did a good job. Heres a couple things that will help you out with dog wood.
 I've been makesing shooting dog woods for 15 years. And are by far the best I have around here.

 (1) Cut your shoots leave the bark on and straighten really good first time then bundle. Let them season a few months. The way you've did it, will work (Green). But you find out untill the season a few months you have to keep restraighting them.
   
  Not saying this is the right or only way but it's the best and quickest ways I've found. And when it comes to building shoot arrows. You might not be worry about the time it takes starting out. But I'd bet the next set of arrows you build you'll be looking for short cuts.

 I cut, leave the bark on, straighten green really well,bundle let season. I cut might in the winter and season to the next. But you can start alot sooner. I have made them in 2 months. But like most shoots the longer they season the better.
  You've already straighten really good once. Your teaching them MENORY. The longer there bundled and seasoning the more menory they have. I may not seam like much now. But after your finished you want the shaft to stay straight.

  When I deside to make arrows. Debark, I use a thumb plain. Now before I start sanding I straighten with hands ,knees ,holes in table (1/2) I have many straighters different distances between straighters for different lenth beens. You figger that out as you buld a few arrows.
    This way any straighting marks (dints)you leave can be sanded out when you sand. Also if I have to use any hea tto help on straighting or getting ride of MEMORY. I do now, also you have enough wood to sand to get rid of the burn marks. Also with dog wood like most shoots you don't have to heat so hot that you get at black scorch marks. As soon as you see it discolor it's hot enough.
   When you heat to you have scorce marks just like heating staves, you changeing wood cells. If you have a finished arrow. You look at your arrow and it has a been. I'll bet its at a scorce mark.
  Heat slow and don't scorch.

  Any shoot no matter how crooked if you want and have the time can be straighten it. But theres a couple things to look for in a shoot. I talked of memory that means a lot when it comes to your shoots(arrows) staying straight when finished.
  I only use the butt secion of the bush. ( from ground up)  It's growing straight up to the sun unlike limbs the have that curve toward the ground from the weight of limbs and leaves.. Of course you can remove it with heat. Just on more step(time) your can bypass. It takes time.  Also this butt secion this far less little limbs coming into it. L;imbs mean crooked spots. And your shoots have a lot evener arrow spine. This means they all come off the bow the same.

  This just some ways of saveing time and helping to keep your arrow to stay straighter longer when your arrows finished.
 
  You know the old saying any old peice of wood will shoot a good arrow.
  THE BEST BOW IN THE WOULD WON'T SHOOT A SUCKIE ARROW.
  Another saying
  IT TAKES LONGER AND IT'S HARDER TO BUILD A GOOD ARROW THAN IT IS A BOW.
 Did mean to steel your post.
 Just saw a couple things that will save you some time and griff on your next arrow.
 

   
 
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on August 30, 2012, 03:58:53 pm
Crooketarrow your input is exactly what I wanted this post to be about!!! So many people in here have so many great ideas and love that about PA. I have cut next years shafts and plan to cut a 100 more in the next few weeks. I will post pictures of the stash when I get it done.
I think people are really liking this post because of all of the input and volume of information that people are getting (including me) about dogwood shafts.
So if anyone has links to things they have written please fell free to post them here just like Jackcrafty did. If you have ideas or techniques that you would like to share folks please do!!!!!!!!!!
There is so much to learn and so much to discover :)
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Huntinfool on August 30, 2012, 04:14:33 pm
Here's a place to look at where these gray dogwood grows there's a national map but if you click on your state a map of that state will pop up showing where they actually grow. None are near me. :(

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=CORA6&photoID=cora6_002_ahp.tif

Also I will add Crooketarrow makes a fine arrow. Not like his name LOL!

Here's some he has bundled up with bark on. All these pics are CAs.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/Huntinfool7/Bowhuntin/RoysShoots1.jpg)

He makes his own trade points and they are par excellent.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/Huntinfool7/Bowhuntin/Tradepoints1.jpg)

His arrows are tough hunting arrows. I know he has made flint points and I do not know if he makes pretty arrows to hang on the wall but his arrows have accounted for a lot of big bucks, his main interest.

All these are self bow kills.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/Huntinfool7/Bowhuntin/ROYS110.jpg)

These are hazel shoots.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/Huntinfool7/Bowhuntin/HazzleShootarrows.jpg)

~HF~
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: crooketarrow on September 01, 2012, 09:21:39 am
  YEA O'SAGE wood dust dose make a good as a dye.
  The saw dust is also a natural insect repellent.
 I'm never bothered by flys in my shot

  THANKS FOR POSTING THE PIC'S.
                         HUNTINFOOL
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: BowEd on September 04, 2012, 08:45:59 am
OK there iowabo now you've done it, I'm looking in the ditches here and there and lo and behold this area is full of gray leaf dogwood everywhere.Thanks to you I've got about 3 dozen shafts in bundles now.Looking forward to using them in the future.Be sure to get a picture on here of your finished shafts.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: Tom Leemans on September 06, 2012, 05:29:41 pm
These are all very cool, but unfortunately I have not kicked my addiction to cane yet. I fear I never will, but it's good to know there's an alternative if I ever need it.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: BowEd on September 06, 2012, 07:28:14 pm
Yes I see your point.They do shoot great.I've got dozens of tonkin,spruce,douglas fir,& cedar arrows.They all shoot great.I'm gonna give dogwood a try.Ya can't have too many bullets I say......LOL.Especially if I give somebody a bow and give them a few arrows to shoot with it.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: crooketarrow on September 10, 2012, 09:09:08 am
  One thing I did'nt mention was I leave the bark on while straighten with straighters.  I get them as close as I can to straight this way when you do debark any inpressions you straigher leaves it left in the bark. If they do leave any marks there light and sand out as you round the arrows.
Title: Re: Anyone want a dogwood arrow build-along?
Post by: iowabow on November 26, 2012, 09:40:27 am
Here was the final out come of the brown red arrow with the turkey tail feathers. It held up great through rain and fog. What I will do differently next time is wrap the feathers rather than glue.