Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Muzzleloaders => Topic started by: lebhuntfish on December 11, 2017, 12:00:26 pm
-
This is something I should probably know but here it goes.
I've been shooting a patched round ball out of my caplock for a while. With great accuracy I might add. But last year at Marshall Michigan I was given a large bag of conicals. Now I've always liked the concept of shooting them but im just not sure on the loading process.
I know they need lubercated in the grooves but do I need to patch them or load just over my powder? I've been shooting 80 grains of ffg black powder with the round balls and im deadly accurat out to 100 yards with that load.
Could someone give me some pointers with the conicals? Thanks.
Patrick
-
Patrick, it's been many years since I shot my T/C Hawkins .50cal, cap lock. I used Maxi Balls. Killed my first 2 deer(8pt, doe) with that gun back in 1979 or 80. I kept a few in my possibles bag with lube on them. I shot 90gr of powder poured in first then the maxi ball and rammed it to the bottom, no patch. I guess it will depends on the size of the conical and the bore of your barrel but I think these are patchless.
-
Thanks Pat, Ill see how they load. I can always use a ball puller and pull them back out if im not comfortable. I may try upping the powder a touch because they are a good bit heavier.
Patrick
-
Patrick,
No patch with the conical bullets, but you may have a shift in the strike of the bullet, depending on your rifle. Are they hollow based Minie balls or solid base bullets. What caliber? My .58's have a shift when changing from round ball to conicals. The service load for the .58 was 60-65 gr 2Fg, but I used 75 gr for hunting. For .50 caliber, a friend recommended 85 gr 3Fg with solid base bullets, some less for hollow base. Good shooting.
Hawkdancer
-
I use Lee REALS maxis .. Shoot good outta my deer stalker.. Lube and shoot.. 80g fff.. Some people have better luck if they use a card or wad.. If they fly good no problem..
Thanks Leroy
-
Thanks guy's, I will look again when I get home. But I think they are flat base bullets.
Stoker, you mentioned a wad, if im correct its lubercated as well and pretty much the same size as my bore, correct?
Hawk, I'm shooting a 50 caliber cva bobcat. Great shooting little gun. Im hoping to get my flintlock fixed up before long, but ill be hunting with my bobcat again this year. I killed a doe with it last year with a patched round ball. Black powder season opens the 23rd here in Missouri so im trying to get some shooting in!
Patrick
-
Lubed felt wad over the powder may help with the flat base bullets. Like sealing a revolver. I use the Minie hollow base in my .58s, but both in my .50 T/C Hawken. Haven't made meat with it, but we only get one or two tags here. Got to start hunting harder, and maybe expanding down to Nebraska. I will check to see you has .50 cal wads.
Hawkdancer
-
Patrick,
Track of TW has .50 cal felt wads, dry and lubed, about $9 per 100. For hunting, I think dry would be better, but on the range, lubed will probably be best. Help keep the bore a little cleaner, I think, smell better, too.
Hawkdancer
-
Thanks guy's, I will look again when I get home. But I think they are flat base bullets.
Stoker, you mentioned a wad, if im correct its lubercated as well and pretty much the same size as my bore, correct?
Hawk, I'm shooting a 50 caliber cva bobcat. Great shooting little gun. Im hoping to get my flintlock fixed up before long, but ill be hunting with my bobcat again this year. I killed a doe with it last year with a patched round ball. Black powder season opens the 23rd here in Missouri so im trying to get some shooting in!
Patrick
Hello Pat...I only shot round ball too and still do if I want to shoot it but I thought some barrels were rifled with a tighter twist for conicals.Round ball shooting slower twist.[1 full twist in 66" if I'm correct].The added weight of the conicals just like arrows will shoot lower then too.Won't make a big diff on close shots I'm sure though.I shoot a .54 Johnny Browning Hawken capper.Use a .52 ball[227 grain] with a .10 pillow tick patch for more ease of loading but still plenty tight.Replaced barrel of stock with a 35" badger barrel from it's 30" original barrel specifically for shooting round ball.Very accurate also out to 100 yards.Hav'nt needed to shoot at a deer farther than that but pretty sure 100 yards is'nt the limit for accuracy yet.I've killed many a deer with just 60 grains of FF.
Don't know about CVA's rifling though so you'll have to target shoot it a bunch.
-
Well Patrick, you say you are pleased with accuracy of a patched round ball in you Bobcat, you shot a deer last fall with it, so I'm of the group that says, 'if it ain't broke, don't mess with it'.
IIRC, the Bobcat barrel is 1:48 rate of twist so it's a compromise rate of twist. It should shoot both patched round ball and conicals equally well. I happen to favor patched round ball in my smoke poles.
-
I use a 50 TC Hawkins, put a TC Maxi Ball on top of 80gr FFF black powder. I put some Crisco on the bullet in the rings and good to go. for a quick loads while hunting I use the TC four in one. good luck and keep your powder dry! Ed
-
Thanks fellas! Thats some great info!
Gifford, Ill probably still shoot the patched round balls. They shoot way to good for me. But I think I will just experiment some with the conicals. Oh yeah, the conicals are flat based.
I have some tallo and beeswax made up. I think I will try to use that as a lube. Thoughts on that?
-
I have been using PRB out of the 50 cal for a long time. for some reason I got the itch to try Lee REAL slugs last Christmas, so gave the part numbers for the 240 and 320 grain to the wife and she gave them to me. Not sure why as 177 grain round balls has knocked them dead, maybe the one that ran a bit and hoping they would be dead right there?
I cast a bunch or the 320's from a brick of lead I had and pan lubed them using the Emerret's Lube recipe as someone recommended. 50% Beeswax, 40% crisco and 10% oil. After two shots I couldn't get the third round down the barrel. The lube fouled the barrel terribly. I want to try another softer lube, or hope the wads clean the barrel. I am still not set on what lube and if wads will help. I am waiting for warmer weather to start paying with it and hunting with RB's again this year.
On the felt wads, you can buy them or make them. I just made a bunch from Durofelt and use them in the 44cal revolver and I cut a bunch to try the REAL out again with a wad.
https://archeryrob.wordpress.com/2017/12/09/lubed-wool-felt-wads-for-the-revolver/ (https://archeryrob.wordpress.com/2017/12/09/lubed-wool-felt-wads-for-the-revolver/)
-
The REALS I shoot are the 250g.. I lube with bore butter.. My son has a CVA similar to my deer stalker doesn't shoot them worth a darn.. I haven't tried them from my TC Hawkins 1:48 twist I believe.. Haven't got around to it.. Both guns shoot PRB great no complaints.. I've only shot 1 doe with a real. 30yd's.. Dang does it pound a hole.. If the TC would shoot them might be elk medicine
Thanks Leroy
-
The maxi bullet was designed for the T/C Hawken and its close relatives. Extremely accurate out to about 150 yards according to the PR. The "Plains" and "Buffalo" bullets are also designed for the 1:48 twist rifles. You just have to find the load your rifle likes, and pamper it. Our resident BP gunsmith recommend the Buffalo bullet and 85 hrs 3f in the .50 cal. He has a lot of pins on the elk kill map, and is a heck of a lot better shot than I am. That load does pinch both ways, though! You just have to see what works for you. Have a good hunt! Btw, how many seasons are there in MO now, and how many can you hunt?
Hawkdancer
-
Thanks fellas! Thats some great info!
Gifford, Ill probably still shoot the patched round balls. They shoot way to good for me. But I think I will just experiment some with the conicals. Oh yeah, the conicals are flat based.
I have some tallo and beeswax made up. I think I will try to use that as a lube. Thoughts on that?
That's what I use for lube too Pat.For muzzle loader hunting I make quick loads out of paper tube wrapped around a 1/2" dowel.Dip the ball in the lube.The paper is the patch.That's all I'll carry with me besides some old underwear strip I use as a spit patch in between shots if needed and the short starter for the ball.My barrel shoots great that way.I like to travel light.....lol.
-
Thanks Ed! I will see if I can make up some of those paper quick loaders and see how they work for me. Ive seen them and talked to my uncle, who builds black powder rifles, about them. He said, once you get them figured out they are pretty slick to use.
Patrick
-
The maxi bullet was designed for the T/C Hawken and its close relatives. Extremely accurate out to about 150 yards according to the PR. The "Plains" and "Buffalo" bullets are also designed for the 1:48 twist rifles. You just have to find the load your rifle likes, and pamper it. Our resident BP gunsmith recommend the Buffalo bullet and 85 hrs 3f in the .50 cal. He has a lot of pins on the elk kill map, and is a heck of a lot better shot than I am. That load does pinch both ways, though! You just have to see what works for you. Have a good hunt! Btw, how many seasons are there in MO now, and how many can you hunt?
Hawkdancer
Thanks Hawk.
In Missouri you have bow season from September 15 to January 15. It is closed during firearm Season for 10 days during November. Which you can use your bow in as long as you have a firearm tag and wear your orange. There is an early and late youth season one before firearm season and one after. Then there is an anterless only season the first part of December. Normally for about 3 days. Which is for firearms. They are always moving that hunt around. Then this year we have alternative methods season for 10 days starting the 23rd of December. Which you can use everything except a high powdered rifle and a hand grenade. But a black powder rifle is legal to use during any of the other gun seasons. Then you have hundreds of different special draw hunts some on state parks and some on conservation areas. Way to many to list. From bow to gun and everything in between. There is more to it but thats a summer. Oh, and tags are cheap as well. $19 for bow, 2 deer and 2 turkeys. $17 for rifle any deer tag and $7 for an anterless only tags. You can kill only 2 bucks, either both with your bow one before rifle season and one after. Or one with your rifle and one with your bow. But you can only kill one buck with any type of fire arm.
I could probably just keep going, lol. :-M :-D (SH) :-D
Patrick
-
Pat....After you make a 1/2" maybe 6" long paper tube glued on the seam with titebond tie the end shut with a thin cotton string.Insert your ball down tight.Tie another string then above that tight.Dip ball inside paper tube into your lube.That leaves you a tube on top to pour your amount of powder in.Leave enough paper left to fold over and tape it shut with making tape.Identify the amount with a pen on the quick load.
To use you rip open the masking tape.Pour your powder down the barrel.Rip off extra paper if neccessary above ball.No need for a patch knife on any of this.Short start it if neccessary.Ram the ball home seated well above the powder and after capping your ready to shoot again that fast.The lubed paper is the patch.My capper is on a leather string hanging from around my neck.
I've shot a double or two of deer standing in one place as quick as this can be done.Shooting the old doe first then the dumb founded yearling.A pic of quick loads.
(https://i.imgur.com/KtWXFQS.jpg)
-
Thats cool Ed! So the patch works on the side of the ball? The ball actually sits right against the powder? What kind of paper do you use?
I think im going to make some of those!
Patrick
-
I just use regular old typing paper but I'm sure other types will work too.The paper tube is cinch tied at one end first.Then the ball is inserted.You can use the 1/2" dowel to set it in good.That's for a .52 cal.ball so it fits tight.Then it is cinch tied above the ball good.Then it is dipped into your liquid lube.Left to cool and harden.
The ball sits seated tight inside the lubed paper patch and seated tight on top of your powder even with the tied off end of string beneath it.The lubed paper is your patch.They fly out of my rifle just as accurate as a pillow tick patch.
Those are my quick loads for hunting.I'm still one to use regular old black powder yet.
-
I got you now Ed. For some reason I was thinking i had to tear off both sides of the ball. Im going to make some and shoot them and see how they do. Thanks for the info bud!
Patrick
-
If it could work back in the civil war days there's no reason it can't work now.
-
Absolutely true!
Patrick
-
Well I made up some of those quick loads. I think I about have it figured out. I shot a few of those REAL conicals. No wad and they shoot all over. I put a lubercated felt wad in and it was better. I decided to up the charge to 90 grains and I shot a 2 in group at a hundred yards. But my round balls are more accurat. But at least I know that if I need to shoot them, say at bigger game like elk, they will be pretty accurat.
Here is a pic of my quick loaders. They shoot just like my patched round ball. Just like you said Ed! Thanks for the help!
Patrick
-
Sorry forgot the picture. Lol
(http://i.imgur.com/VEexQi6.jpg)
Patrick
-
Pat....Looks good!!!Is there lube on those?A 2" group @ 100 yards is more than good enough.A round ball will knock down an elk in the boiler too.You can be assured of that!!!
I used to target shoot my .54 Johnny Brown Hawken all the time at various different rendezvous match shoots I went to.Good cheap way to target shoot all afternoon.Used to have it figured out using more or less powder to adjust my elevation hits at various different ranges.Never needed to shoot farther than 100 yards yet though.Even while hunting.A 4" group of 5 shots @ 100 yards will do the job too.I put a fine silver front blade on the front of the barrel on my gun.I liked it for pin pointing type shots.Use the same gun even for squirrels leaving all the meat undamaged.Really like this gun.
Good luck putting a deer in the fridge with yours.Looks like your ready.
-
Thanks Ed, yes there is lube on them. I used some modern bore butter so I could test them out. I think I need to add some more. But now that I have shot them I made up 10 more. I dipped those im my talo and beeswax mix.
Can't garonte that I will get to use them in the woods but I at least know that I can load one pretty dang quick! Thanks for the help everyone!
Patrick
-
Any one try those in a flintlock? Is the paper just one layer? Got some high grade thesis bond looking for something to do. Have to find some thin cotton string though.
Hawkdancer
-
I done a little looking online after Ed mentioned it. What I came up with was a trapezoid that is 5.5 in long by 5 inches high on one end and angled to 3 inches on the other end. I rolled it with the 5.5in length on the bottom. I once I got it rolled and glued on the seam I incerted the ball to where it would be on the 5in high end of the tube. I shoot a. 490 round ball, I was able to load 3 shots easily I probably could have done a few more but I swabed it after 3 shots. I cut paper on target with a patched round ball and the accuracy was no different wit the paper quick loaders.
Patrick
-
Pat...I see.I did'nt know the process was posted on the internet.Should of known.A rendezvous buddy of mine showed me way back in the early eighties about these loads.I just cut out a squared piece of paper and call it good enough.Hunted with them since but target shot at rendezvous with the normal powder horn and bag yet with all the tools and measure in there.
The use of them just lightens the load some.Although I do like taking my nipple wrench/capper with yet and a couple extra quick loads in my pocket.Always like to be prepared in case.
Hawk...It's just 1 layer of lubed paper around the ball.That's all that's necessary.Should work fine in your barrel too.Many times regular old typing paper can be .010 thousands thick.Just the same as a pillow tick patch.I use bees wax and deer tallow mix.
The thing I like too is that you can write on it to show the load that's in it.The old smoke pole sure makes deer hunting waaaaay easier than self bow hunting for sure for me anyway.
-
What ratio of beeswax to tallow? Got beeswax, have to tender out some tallow? What's the best way to do that? Thanks,
Hawkdancer
-
Hawk, just cook the deer fat low and slower. Just let it melt, stir it ever so offten. Once its melted down strain it with a wire mesh colender or some cheese cloth. Then just melt in some beeswax and mix then let it cool. See if it's the consistency you are looking for. If not just melt and mix again. It doesn't take as much beeswax as you would think. But you can mix more for other applications.
Patrick
-
If anybody needs bees wax.I've got a bunch.We've got bee hives here.
-
I still have a large chunk here Ed but I will remember that. Im always using it for something.
Patrick
-
Butcher, baker, candlestick maker, brewer, and would be bowyer, too! Always looking for more beeswax for function candles for lanterns
Hawkdancer