Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Gary Mac on December 12, 2010, 08:46:42 pm
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Hi All
If you own a copies of 'The Traditional Bowyers Bible,' Look at page 230 - Volume 3 (Wooden Arrows Section)
There is a picture of the way arrows travel towards a target in relation to weak or stiff spines.
I was wondering if this explanation is wrong. It does not say if we are to assume RH or LH archer but we assume right
unless otherwise stated.
I was always under the impression for a RH archer, Stiff arrows impact 'left' and weak arrows impact 'right.'
here is the exact quote of what the picture explanation says, including a scan of the pic in case you don't have the book:
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Quote:
Arrow spine as it relates to archer's paradox, or bending around the handle of a non-centre-shot bow.
A ) the arrow hasn't enough spine, or is to limber and shoots left.
B ) the arrow has to much spine, or is to stiff, and shoots right.
C ) arrow spined correctly bends around the handle and flies straight to the target.
(http://www.britisharchery.com/impact.jpg)
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So there you have it and i'm confused. I always thought stiff arrows went left and weak arrows went right in the case of a RH archer?
Am I missing something really obvious here?
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I believe what they mean is the orientation of the fletchings.
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Yep, the author got it backwards. Although an overly weak arrow CAN impact left........Art
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Cheers artcher1, I thought I was going mad or something!
Maybe the author is a lefty and didn't realize?
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mullet, you mean like paper tuning, when the fletchings are leaning to the left if the spine is too great? just to be clear.. cause that would explain the picture with the caption..
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aero, yes. That's what I was meaning.
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It is pretty obvious they meant right handed since they show the arrow going around the left of the riser. I remember reading that when the book first came out and getting really confused by it. Im with Art, it is backward.
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Too stiff fly left. To light fly right. (right hand bow) A need for that page in the book, is to have it revised. If you shoot arrows this happens all the time, and right away you know the arrow is over or under spined
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Hi Mullet
The chapter definately refers to the actual flight impact in relation to the target and not the arrow lean or fletching, but I know where you are coming from though.
I have tracked down the author of that particular chapter in the book: Gabriela Cosgrove at Kustom King Arrows. I sent an email this morning asking about this
part of her article.
If I recieve a response, I will gladly paste her reply in this thread.
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Reply from the Author:
You are absolutely correct.
If you are right handed, and your arrow is over spined for your bow, the arrow will “hit” to the left.
As my husband and I are both lefties, the description correlates to our shooting practice.
Sorry for the confusion.
That is an error in the chapter.
Sincerely, Gabriela
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Reply from the Author:
As my husband and I are both lefties, the description correlates to our shooting practice.
Sorry for the confusion.
That is an error in the chapter.
Sincerely, Gabriela
Yet her drawing clearly depicts a right handed shooter...........Art
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Writers.....Go Figure...... ;D
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everyone makes mistakes......exspt me ::) ;D
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Maybe they use Thumb Rings? ???
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Would you need right hand or a left hand arrows using a thumb Eddie O:)? Art
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I know the drawing is incorrect...but somehow that is exactly what happens when I shoot...under spined goes left (the weaker the spine...the further left it goes), but I cant for the life of me get any kind of spine to go right.....even excessivly high spines (light carbon arrows for my compound) goes were they are suppose to! This happens on my selfbows, my glass longbow and my glass recurve (the latter is centershot), and the tendency is so pronounce that im simply get the higehst spine arrows I can get hold of:-(
Something is wrong (having a compound is wrong...but that is not what I mean;-).....but I cant be the only one who experience this?
Ps: Im a right handed shooter (hold my bow in the left hand, and arrow rest on/above knuckles).
Cheers
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Close to center shot? Even if the bow isn't cut, the string doesn't always track down the middle.
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holten101,
I shoot a Hoyt Dorado and my arrows did the same thing. I had to play with the thickness of my strike plate due to the fact the sight window on my dorado is cut so far past center. I think I have gotten it right now but stiffer arrows still shoot better and weak arrows go left.
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Holten101, is the string touching your arm/guard/clothing when you shoot? Art
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No...I have no string contact what so ever...and this the "weak spine left" happens with every type of bow I use (havent tested the compound though). I tried shortening a shaft in 1" increments...and each time I cut an inch...it moved alittle more right:-(
My mind tells me this is wrong...but im ending up with a pretty well tuned set when I disregard "reality" and follow the wrong explanation given in TBB (oh yeah...I have seen it pictured like in TBB other places...but it could be hasty copies).
If I had some youtube skills I would make a movie showing my "dilemma".
Cheers
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Sure would help to know the stats on your bows and arrows. Your problem could be that you're switching between center shot/close to center and around handle bows. Pick one type and stay with for awhile and see if that helps..........Art
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My main set up is a 55#@28" longbow, not quite centershot (its a glass bow...yeah I know, but I have some weighty reasons;-). Arrows are Grizzly Stiks, "Alaskan" 145 grs points and 75 grs inserts. I pull to 29" and arrows are about 31"....when I try the weaker spined "Sitka" version of the same arrow (same points)....they....suprise, go left:-(
It the same with every bow I try....and I would be inclined to blame form and/or release...if it wasnt for the fact that my bare shafts do the same trick when I tune.
Cheers
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I don't know what spine your Grizzly Stiks are but I can count an additional 30-35# spine needed for the extra up front weight. Your arrows should have a static spine of around 85-90# IMO. As I mentioned earlier, grossly underspined arrows can also impact left.............Art
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Forgot, are those GS tapered? Art
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The Alaskan are definatly NOT under spined at my set-up (from Alaska Bowhunting):
"With a static spine designed for 50#-80# + bows, the Alaskan shaft makes up a finished arrow weighting between 550 and 650+ grains including a 125 to 250+ grain head. This makes it just right for most moderate draw weight bows and virtually any game animal from whitetails to kudu. "
Even if they were it would not explain why I experience this phenomenon with other set-ups too....im hate not understanding why, but I guess I should be satisfied that my arrows fly true....even with broadheads:-)
Cheers
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Are these arrows tapered or parallel shafts? Makes a big difference.
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Oh...sorry:-)
They are tapered!...but I get the same with woodies....Im sure its me who is wrong, darned if I knew how?
When I try the light carbon arrows for my compound (should be vastly over spined for my longbow)....they hit right were I want them...I cant seem to make any type of spine go to the right really (this include bare shaft testing):-(
Sorry..have I derailed this thread with a problem that only I experience?
Cheers
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Have you checked yourself for which eye is dominant? Art
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Yeah...eye dominance is not an issue in this case (right eye is dominant).
any ways...I think I have to experiment more...im vasting valuable forum space with a problem that is obviously not shared by many of my fellow archers;-)
Cheers
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That pretty much just leaves your form Holten. Bow hand/release perhaps? I know when my arrows hit left it's one of the two.......or both. Art
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Hi Holten
You’re not on your own with that apparent problem mate, I have exactly the same scenario as you do. I shoot ELB and my bow hand is my arrow rest.
I also suspect that I am shooting with grossly under-spined arrows 'BUT!' . . . Read the following:
I live in England and I had a chat about this with one of my fletchery suppliers: Richard Head Longbows. Richard is well know in the UK for his involvement in supplying parts and teaching the ELB shooting form.
I told him about this problem and he felt that I should experiment with my 'String Picture.'
I also shoot recurve (modern Olympic style) and with that, I pull my string to the tip of the nose with the string also passing the side of my chin. I am a right handed shooter. With my recurve string picture, my right eye is positions directly behind the string so I can see it (slightly blurred). I usually line that up with the right hand side of my sight aperture so that my sighting integrity remains consistent.
Now for the stinger . . . .
Richard suggested that I try recurve shooting form with my ELB concentrating on 'String Picture, but, with a slight difference to the recurve:
He suggested I place the string, in my string picture to line up down the left hand side of the bow stave and directly in-line with the arrow shaft from rear to tip (I am a right handed shooter).
To help you, I have attached a PDF Document written by Hugh McBrien .
A very valuable document that deals with Longbow shooting form.
Since I followed this advice, my arrows have now dramatically moved into correct centershot.
I hope it helps you in some way.
Let me know how you get on.
www.garymac.net/elbcoaching.pdf (http://www.garymac.net/elbcoaching.pdf)
Note: I must tell you as a GNAS Archery Coach that you must not over-look the following advice:
Most archers I see shooting ELB's stop at the anchor point. I wish that term would have never been invented in archery because there is no such thing.
Once you reach your 'reference point ' on your face you should never stop pulling, if you do, you ruin the release totally causing it to snap and change the paradox of your arrow clearance. You 'must' always keep pulling during the transfer phase to the back muscles and release on the pull causing your string hand to fly directly back on release. A much more aligned realease will be accomplished this way.
Gary