Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Bayou Ben on November 13, 2018, 12:23:21 pm
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I've been wanting something more primitive to take with me in the woods, so I'm trying my luck at my 1st bendy handle bow. The stave is pretty clean except for this knot pretty much in the center. Would it be better closer to the handle or farther out in the limb? or does it matter?
I'll leave a little extra width there when laying out the width profile.
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Ben, unless you are going to weights that are really heavy just lay it out to what suits the stick and your personal likes. On osage, elm or ash you should have no problems at all. Just dont do the wide and thin route....1" to 1-1/8" wide and go with 3/4" thick over the center 1/3 and about 1/2" thick at the tips. Those dimensions will need to be taken down some cause that size will be a mule for sticks in the 48" to 55" length range.
'course everybody knows I nuts anyways so take it with a grain of salt.
rich
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Haha, sounds good Rich. I'm glad you replied. You are one of my main inspirations for wanting to build this style bow. My plan was to go 60" ntn , 55 lbs @ 28". Are those thickness dimensions still good for that length?
Thanks
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Just to make sure you have enough make the middle 1/3 of the bow 1-1/2" wide tapering the width from that point to 3/4 inch tips....side profile 7/8" thick for 12-16 inches in the center and a straight thickness taper to 1/2" thick tips.....work your bend in from the tips to an even bend....this should be over the weight you want...before you start tillering the bow's thickness bring it down to 1-1/4 or 1-1/8 in the middle 1/3rd and check again....you'll still be strong so tiller the belly evenly (to keep the bend nice and round). If it is still obvious you are over weight then Narrow to 1" wide over the center 1/3rd and bring the weight to goal by even belly tillering....you will be surprised how small the final dimensions are, I'm sure
rich
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Forgot to say, these bows power comes from the middle of the bow so by tillering toward the center you come out with a circular tiller....if ya do it like a rigid handle you are more apt to have too much bend in the middle (equals under weight bow) dont be surprised if the finished bow has parallel thickness and width over the center 8 to 10 inches and the bend will be perfectly round.
rich
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Thanks for the detailed reply. A lot of stuff to digest here. Tillering from the tips in will be new for me, but I think I understand.
I really appreciated it. This information isn't easy to find! At least I couldn't find it.
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be careful of the darkside sir....
rich
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Lol. I thought I was already on the dark side with my laminated bows and cut in shelves.... (lol)
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I love seeing Rich counsel a Patawan on the bendy handled bow. With a stave like that he could probably get that weight and draw length out of a 50" bendy or less. Love it.
Ben, follow his guidance and you will be happy. Danny
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Just a warning Ben, Rich will take you to the primitive darkness...But, he will show you the light...Hope to see a circular bend from you soon... )P( Were fortunate to have Rich around here...
Don
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Great info! It does seem like layout "formulas" or suggested dimensions are much easier to come by for stiff handled bows.
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And thanks Don for your help early on getting my wheels rolling with this style. Now I just need to finish up my plywood bow, and I can fully immerse myself in a primitive build )P(
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Sorry for switching this up, but I didn't want to potentially ruin an expensive osage stave before getting some bendy handle tiller experience.
I had a sliver of ipe left over from another build and a pre prepped bamboo strip, so I figured I would throw something together and see what happened.
This one is ipe/bamboo, 59" ntn, 7/8" wide at the handle, low brace @ 20" and 47#'s. I tried to follow Rich's advice and get the outer limbs bending first, and I started making my way toward the middle.
How's it looking? Should I start working the inner's more at this point?
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Ben, make the right limb (in your last pic) match the left just a little closer with JUST A LITTLE more bend about midlimb......then ya got a bow except for weight maybe. your pics show a circle tiller if I ever seen one. You should be able to draw that to 24" or so quite safely and check for symetry between the two limbs and if thats good your good to go.
As you are working from here on out make sure to check the bow for bend in the middle......meaning that at 25' or so you should be able to feel the bend starting in your hand.....if you do leave it be if not then work the middle 1/3 outer ends maybe 1-2 scrapes at a time untill it feels like it just starting to bend. I'm going to mark up your pic to show you where to work the bend closer to the center.
Once you got that done then your done.....if you need to loose a few pounds of draw weight use a flat board sander (the hand kind) sand 2-3 passes on each limb from tip to 2-3 inches from the centerline of the bow. Cant remember what weight and draw you was looking for but you got to be close unless your going way back.
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Ben, here is where the left limb needs caught up to the left.
Also I see where you are going back to 28" draw so when you get both limbs pretty much identical bends ( again you are pretty close right now ) .....since you are used to employing a tiller once you are satisfied with the limbs being even bending then pull the bow down to about 50 -52 pounds keeping a close eye that the limbs are even with each other and that you dont have a "flat spot" in the grip area (think "fade hinge" ya are looking for an even overall smooth bend if looks like that then finish off by sanding to exact weigh you want......any sanding to lower weight should be even amount of strokes so if the one limb gets three full length strokes then the same number and place on the other limb.
rich
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Thanks a bunch Rich. Funny you caught that spot that’s bending more, I could only see it with the tiller gizmo. And I’m glad I asked for an opinion, because I thought I needed to remove a lot from the inner 1/3rd!
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Looking awesome Ben...Be careful though, bendy's can be become addictive....You will find that the design is efficient and fast...Rich is a master, he's made hundreds...Really lucky to have him around here...Can't wait to see full circle on this one...
Don
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Thanks Don. It has been a fun build so far. I can tell what Rich was saying about the power coming from the handle area on these bows. You can just feel it when you draw knowing that too much bend would be bad, but just a little bit give will launch an arrow.
That being said I don't feel much bend in the handle/fade area. I did a little more last night. Came to full brace and pulled a couple inches more and tried to work that area Rich pointed out.
Something still doesn't look just right with the left limb. I can't put my finger on it though. Here it is at 22" ~ 52#'s. It is leaning a little in the cradle, but it feels pretty balanced when I draw in hand, and I have room to fix any of that later.
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Is the left limb bending a bit more than the right? Maybe that one should be the top limb. Can you post a photo of you drawing it by hand? It's looking really close! (I hate that part, 'cause I don't want to mess everything up!)
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Ben, It's looking really good ....a small tweek on the right limb and your balance and arc will be spot on. I marked the right limb and here is what I would do.
The right tip area SEEMS too stiff but ya jsut need it come around a bit more.....so scrape/sand the green area first a littlle at a time untill that limb bend evens out and looks smooth ....All we are doing is making that limb a smooth bend so dont even look left. once that bend looks smooth then compare it to the left one....if ya still feel the "off-balance" then sand the red area untill the right limb matches the left and the balance feels perfect.
I forgot to say that when I scrape or sand a problem "spot" I DO NOT work just that spot. For example if you have a 2" area that is the problem I'll work that but the actual work area will be 2-4 inches both sides of the area so I'm working 6-8 inches to correct a 2" problem.....it is all about "smooth and even". You are exactly on track so once you have the limbs pretty "even" all around draw it back untill it starts to bend in your hand or you feel it start to "stack". I doubt that it will stack on you because you do have the tips working some....just ease it back and if something doesn't "feel" right then give her a good "once over" and correct.
If the bend looks good, and it draws smooth but it's too heavy then we will start on the pesky middle of the bow. Also be aware of the tips because you dont want them too stiff or you will overstrain the mid-limb.
It is looking real good sir.
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Looking good Ben, want to see that full circle pop out at full draw buddy...
Don
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Ben, looking forward to seeing this one all done. I have several ipe boards and thought that you could make a boo backed D bow under 1” wide with it, this will prove the thought. I think it looks real good so far! Everyone is different, but I have half a dozen bows I’ve kept for myself and there are two that I grab 90% of the time when I want to stump or target shoot, both are bend through the handle bows, one being an eastern woodlands style. This build may be the start of a stack of D bows on your rack lol.
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I was thinking the same thing Tim. I need to get an in the hand pic, because it looks a little different than on the tree, but I may be out of pic favors from the wife at the moment after my last bow photo session a few days ago, (lol)
Morgan, you can definitely make a bendy under 1" wide with ipe, go for it. If this bow doesn't make it, it will be 100% my fault. ;D
I worked the spots that Rich highlighted just a little. I thought it looked good and pulled it a couple more inches. It's @ 24" and 52#'s. It seems to have balanced back out. Is it close enough where I can just reduce a little weight out to full draw?
I don't have anything to reference it to, but it doesn't seem to bend much in the hand at this point. I can barely feel it.
*And I am a little nervous about it stacking, that's why I wanted to keep the tips stiff. It doesn't seem to stack yet though
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Ben, It looks good sir....before ya go to taking weight off draw it to 26 in your hand. If you can "just feel" the tension (bend) then STAY AWAY FROM THE MIDDLE. The only reason for this +2" draw is to make sure you are not "whip tillered" and the tips are still working if they look stiff thats OK but it will change how you final sand the belly.
You are that close to done....just a few sanding strokes and you will be ready for finish....stay away from the middle 6-7 inches......dont make me turn the car around 8) you are very near to done bud.
Check those 2 things "feel" and a pic of your tips at 26"....and I'll post ya a pic of how to house-break this puppy.
rich
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Check those 2 things "feel" and a pic of your tips at 26"....and I'll post ya a pic of how to house-break this puppy.
rich
Lol. Sounds like a plan!
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And forgot to ask, how do you normally setup where you will place your hand vs the physical center of the bow?
I'm pretty set on this one already, but for next time I would like to know what's the best way to set it up.
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Okay, got the wife to snap a quick pic for lunch, and she didn't even complain about it :)
26" and 56#'s in the pic. I'm not worried about weight at this point. I'll just fix what needs fixing, and let the weight come out where it is.
I feel a slight bit of tension at draw, but my gut feeling is it could bend more. Balance wise, the top limb could use a couple scrapes.
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Ben, you are there buddy. Your imbalance is coming from the area I have marked in red. That spot is not bending quite enough....This is a very small adjustment so work the area lightly. The reason I say that is this: your upper limb has a 90 degree angle and the lower limb is just slightly less so only work that area till your angle's are even and your imbalance will go away....this last little thing qualifies as nit-pickin that is how small the amount is off.
The area I marked is where you should work a limb to "bring it around" in every case so never work the actual last 3" or so.
I did not see your question before so as to where to grip your bow...I use the geometric 4 inches of the bow because I want to be able to just grap it and shoot it. You now have a bow that does not necessarily have a "top" limb ya can shoot either one "up" I can tell from your pic that you are used to shooting bows with regular grips. You are using the the entire palmer surface of the bowhand. I use a high wrist where only the wed of the thumb and index finger is on the bow and shoot off the hand. This is where the 4" comes in, I grab the bow so that either of the 4" lines are the arrow rest that puts my Mediterranean release nearly centered in the bow.
The reason for the high wrist is mostly because I got in the habit of having a couple of spare arrows in my bow hand....so....with a full hand grip you tend to mash those arrows hard against the bow and high wrist allows me to cradle those arrous away from the bow.
Ya get those angles a little closer and you got a bow....irregardless of weight I expect you find the draw smooth with no stack....and I'm pretty sure you will like the way it spanks an arrow
rich
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Thanks so much Rich for your help. Hopefully others are learning too from all of your great advice.
On my last few bows I have been measuring the string angles with a protractor on the picture. Not very accurate but it gives you a good idea of where you are. I show top at 78 degrees and the bottom is 74 degrees.
I'll work the spot you mentioned an try and even them up.
So I shouldn't be concerned about stacking when drawing it these last 2 inches to 28"?
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Ben, by what I see your bow should not stack at 28. My advice would be to draw the bow by hand to see if it stacks....I doubt that it will. Remember that you need to sand it overall for finishing etc. I'm guessing you will wind up somewhere around 60#. Please advise on your thoughts about it's suitability for your hunting trips.
rich
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Will do my friend.
I'm loving the simplicity of it. It weighs 13 oz. I can't wait to put some arrows through it (SH)
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Geez i love the bend on that ,that circular look is eye candy.
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Spot on advice Rich. 3 sessions on the spot you highlighted and the angles now match....
BUT, in the process of exercising the limbs, the bamboo developed a slit of broken fibers. It didn’t lift yet but it will. I’m going to shave it all off and replace it with a new strip. I’ll post updates of the progress.
Man, I was looking forward to slinging some arrows this weekend :-\
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what do you attribute the fiber problem to? I dont see any problem with your tiller.....is the failure running the length of the bow or across the limb?
rich
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It was a defect in the boo. I saw it when I glued it up, but didn’t think it would develop into a problem. Should’ve known better.
I have it removed now. Used a little heat since it was TB3 and it came up in one piece.
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Ahhhhh the perils of wood bow making.
that bow was looking so good ,hope it works out for you.
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An update on this build:
I got the backing off with a little heat. I remember PatB mentioning that heat will lift TB3 glue, and it worked well if anyone needs to do it.
I glued on another boo backing and started retillering. There is a weak spot on one of the limbs due to node spacing differences between the 2 backings, and I have to reduce too much weight to fix it. It will end up being less than 50 lbs so I'm putting it on the side for now.
I did gain a bunch of experience with this build, so much thanks to Rich and others who helped me.
I'm moving back to the osage stave originally posted. It's roughed out to the dimensions that Rich suggested.
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