Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Primitive Skills => Topic started by: Marc St Louis on July 20, 2008, 11:22:26 am
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I was thinking about life up here and how nearly all the natives hunt with compounds or rifles, mostly rifles. The idea of hunting with their traditional gear just does not interest them. Why? Because they are not playing at survival. When they go hunting it's because they need food and they use the tool that will do the best and quickest job possible, usually a gun. The only ones that may consider using traditional hunting gear are the ones that are fairly comfortable and not living on the edge of survival. I have had many locals look at my bows and arrows but never has one of them expressed any interest in using one for hunting. Some have bought some for decorative purposes but that is it. There are the odd ones that use compounds for hunting but those are pretty rare.
What do you all think?
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It's funny, but most people make fun of someone who has "gone primitive"....or at least we get funny looks. I can just imagine the looks I would get if I dressed myself dressed myself up like Otzi and ventured onto a hunting lease with the "camo crowd". ::)
Same thing for people with NA heritage? It's probably due to embarrassment and social acceptance more than anything. It's a shame really.
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that's a good question , , like one said you get funny looks when you tell someone your building and using a primitive bow . The compounds they make today are in thick woods as lethal as a gun out to 50 yds and at the high end cost more . If it's easier in this modern world - that's what people do - most are too busy with the way they live - so if it's relatively easy -that's perfect for most - technology & the cutting edge . But hopefully when there in it long enough their ideas on how to hunt will change . It's not always all about the harvest - but the quality of the hunt. :)
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I wonder how many people actually hunt to survive (these days)? Hunting is time consuming and expensive....not to mention the time it takes to process the meat. And if you don't have a source where you can buy the meat, I wonder if you would have the ability to refrigerate?
If it's a matter of survival, you're right Marc, using anything but a rifle would be silly....and more difficult.
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It's funny you brought this up. Somebody on this site, I forgot who, sorry. Was impressed that I have killed 21 hogs since the end of December. But when I hunt hogs to put tender meat in the freezer, I use a 30-06, 3 1/2" 12gauge or my 44mag pistol. I can shoot 3 or 4 nice small sows in a day or more. When I hunt with my bow for hogs, it's for fun. I still kill hogs with a bow, but I can't be as selective when it comes to playing God. ;D
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It's funny you brought this up. Somebody on this site, I forgot who, sorry. Was impressed that I have killed 21 hogs since the end of December. But when I hunt hogs to put tender meat in the freezer, I use a 30-06, 3 1/2" 12gauge or my 44mag pistol. I can shoot 3 or 4 nice small sows in a day or more. When I hunt with my bow for hogs, it's for fun. I still kill hogs with a bow, but I can't be as selective when it comes to playing God. ;D
Exactly
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Hunting for survival is fortunately not something most of us will ever have to experience..But testing our skills and our ability to survive with primitive weapons and ancient gear sure does bring about an awareness of who we truly are and what we as individuals are made of.. besides brother it sure is fun! Hawk a/ho
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I've thought on the matter of survival, and how the bow plays into that, for a while now. Here are my thoughts so far.
The bow is actually a very advanced weapon. It requires tuning, proper construction, and care in practicing. It really would be the most efficient weapon for survival- it's made from the materials at hand, easily rixed, quiet, deadly, accurate, and replaceable- but requires alot of devotion. A rifle does not. Also, you owuld have to make compromises in design. Though recurves are great, you won't want one for survival- and no handles, rests, silencers, terrific casts (like Marc's reflexed statics), or fancy colors. You'll pretty much get a bent stick, a few crude, pointy arrows, and nothing fancy. Along with these compromises though, you also have to work ,much harder at actually developing the skills necessary- which means other skills (like pottery, tanning, shelter construction, cooking, and medicinal plants) will likely get the back burner. Meaning your life would probably be more rough and hrader than otherwise, with pretty much no downtime. You would be living very much like a wolf, which menas you have to go a while without a food frequnetly and will be travelling/hunting alot.
It's not the life most would want to pursue, because it requires much more than we're used ot giving up. However, for some this life would be the best choice in tmers of actual survival. You would worry about less, make and carry less, and would be able to spend almost all your time hunting.
Of course, survival with a rifle always makes me wonder, "what will you do when you run out of bullets?" If you're able to buy them, is it really the same sort of survival? Anyway...
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Kegan, you raise some interesting points. But I have to disagree with you on the crude weapons for survival theory.
For many of us, our hobby is something that essential to the survival or our sanity. Would crude, basic, and "ugly" bows and arrows be worthy of the vital role they play in preserving our sanity? I think not. Only the best will truly satisfy...a only the best weapons will truly be reliable when it matters most. ;D
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This is not a recent thought that I have had but a recurring one that has comes back to mind over the years.
I know that having the knowledge to make your own bows and arrows gives one a certain freedom. So does having the ability and knowledge to make your own bullets
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Marc, you are right . I've had this discussion with quite a few people that don't hunt. They know that I chip points, start fire with "sticks" and make bows and Atlatl's. Along with play with making cordage and pottery. If the world goes down the Tube they all said that they would like to come stay with me.
I also hunt Blackpowder and recently got into Flintlock. It's not hard to make bullets or shoot rocks if you had too with those guns.
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Well, being a native that lives on "or really close to" the reservation, I can tell you that most of the people I know don't want to use anything less than a firearm. The reason being that it requires more effort to use, with less chance of success. Its not so much about the hunt anymore as it is about the trophy or bringing home a lot of meat. Those that I have shared my love of making bows just look at me strangely, and say "Oh interesting", with a strange look on their faces. Then of course I always got that strange look, so don't blame the primitive archery. ???
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Marc, you are right . I've had this discussion with quite a few people that don't hunt. They know that I chip points, start fire with "sticks" and make bows and Atlatl's. Along with play with making cordage and pottery. If the world goes down the Tube they all said that they would like to come stay with me.
I also hunt Blackpowder and recently got into Flintlock. It's not hard to make bullets or shoot rocks if you had too with those guns.
Not that hard to make gunpowder either
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You are right there Marc. Charcoal, Sulfur, and saltpeter. But from talking with older friends of mine that grew up doing it. The hard part is getting a consistant, ground ,size.
Badbill, It seems like Native american, or Joeblow redneck; It doesn't sound much different. There are only so many "Romantics" to go around . Or if it makes everybody feel better , Kids that won't grow up.
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Mullet, I don't mind being either of those.
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I believe the bow and arrow to be a perfect survival tool. Even though you can make your own gun powder you still have to have all 3 ingredients. For a bow and arrow, the components are all around most of us. Points can be made from found materials and objects. They are relatively easy to make and are quite effective.
Most of us will never have to deal with a survival situation but if push came to shove, I believe I could hold my own. I don't knap but if I had to I could make an assortment of stone tools...if we had decent rock here! ::)
Today's society wants everything handed to them on a platter. The easy way out! The 8 guys that I have been hunting with for 25 years, all very good friends, consider me the "token" primitive guy. They all hunt with wheels and as soon as possible get the 270s, 30 06s and 308s out for the rest of the season. They just don't get it. None of them "need" the meat for survival, although they all enjoy it for dinner. ;D They think what I do is cool and each loves the "primitive" arrow hanging on their office wall... but they don't get it.
I have rim fire and center fire long and hand guns. I have a black powder gun. I have lots of bows and bow making materials, arrows and arrow making materials, I have knives and hatchets and steel and stone for blades and points, plants for cordage, glue and dyes and clay for pottery...if I need it! The road I am traveling is going towards simple but effective! ;)...but I, we, are of a different mindset than most. I think we would all use what we had available, in the order of its ease, to survive. Hopefully it will be use by choice and not necessity!...and until then, "I'll do it my way!" ;D Pat
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I use a bow for hunting for convience. Here in Oregon rifle season is about a month for deer and for days for elk where I hunt. With archery I get amonth of deer, elk, and bear in the month of September. As far as survival say you are in a plane crash where would you get a gun in the woods. If you have been on this site long enough just from reading the posts you have the head knowleage to make a bow from stone. Joel
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Another survival aspect concerning bow over gun( not against guns own many) is the fact that guns make alot of noise. If you are hungry you can bet theres a dozen other hungry folks within earshot of that rifle going off. They come creepin in while you are gutting that much needed deer , incapacitate(or kill) you and take it to feed their family. The bow allows you to take game wherever you want without alerting others to your presence.You could even hunt parks and reserves if it was TEOTWAWKI.
That being said I'd probably just shoot it with a 22 that had a plastic pop bottle taped to the end of the barrel. , bottom cut off obviously. That or I'd just shoot it with whatever and take my brother or wife armed with my AR-15 style longbow to cover my back . :)
Lotta folks are gonna come to their senses too late. They will come to our doors knowing we had our heads on straight all the time and ask us to help them. I'll help all I can but after a while we'll not have much for 'em but they'll still ask for something , some kinda weapon to defend themselves. All they'll get from me is a butterknife out of the drawer. They can sharpen it on a stone, lash it to a stick and make their own meat. Guy I saw once called them " the butterknife brigade" they'll consist of all the anti gun folks you know now after the defecation hits the air accelerator. :o
Any survival plan that doesn't take into consideration how you are gonna deal with folks trying to kill you to take what they need to survive isn't a very good one in my opinion. :o Now as I think about it, well we won't go there I don't wanna get everybody's undershorts all to chafin'.......
Well I guess I will.A crossbow would make a good survival weapon as they are much easier for an untrained person to use. .A ten year old kid could save your but with one with very little training.They are also much more intimidating than a stick and string. Looking deadly is important in those sort of situations
My rant is over sorry if I hijacked the thread.
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Don't forget snares they are working for you while you sleep or get other chores done, I have spoken to old timers that say they had caught critters up to small deer in snares.
The "woodcraft" skills we practice as a hobby or "as a just in case the modern world may come to a end" should help point out how blessed in many respects we have it today.
However just like any skill you use it or loose it !
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i feel i hunt the deer and other animals here for meat...i enjoy hunting and love being in the woods, but for me the meat is what feeds my family and we save money on gas to run to the store to spend money on the meat....i dont honestly think i could hunt with a scoped rifle or compound bow...instead ill shoot stickbows and my flintlock, its just the way i feel i am to shoot, my friends wonder why i do that and i just say its what feels correct, but as was being said, no we dont hunt to just survive, but in a way if a deer is not taken our freezer is empty...
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You are absolutely right, Jack. A snare made from the aircraft style cable you have in your garage connected to the lift springs will make a dandy snare for a deer. Learn how to make a snare lock from a fender washer now while you have the internet!
Huntertrapper I think if you and your family hadn't eaten in a week you would carry the best rifle you had to the woods and kill the first animal you saw to put food in your belly. Your priorities change when theres four hungry mouths to feed and you gotta do it or they don't eat! Its easy to look at it and think you know how you'd react, but in my opinion only a fool would continue hunting with a primitive bow when their survival depended on it. Unless of course thats all they had or military action in the area precluded the unwanted attention firearms might bring.
I know that around my neck of the woods the deer population is gonna be hurtin in a serious fashion if food ever gets short at the grocery. Buncha folks around here kill 'em year round already whenever they need the meat.I can see the BP rifle being awful handy. But only after other bullets had been used up or in the interest of conserving ammunition stores. You'd be carrying an AR-15 ( or SKS better yet) over your shoulder for the two legged varmints of course.
I ain't trying to start a shovin match, just stating my opinion and I WAS NOT calling anyone a fool.
Surprised no one addressed my x-bow commen...
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This has been said....but if you are really concerned about survival.....learn to trap. Period.
Learn to snare, learn to set commercial traps and learn to set deadfalls and twitch up traps.
Also learn to snare brids.
A Day setting traps.....can lead to a week of eating...do that math......traps and snares are force multipliers.......you have many doing the work for you......
Now, that being said....except for a few times a year, I always hunt with a bow and arra.....just cause I love it......
But if I had to feed the family...trap the small (up to about beaver size) critters and kill and preserve (dry, smoke and jerk) the bigguns.....
Also....learn to run a trot line...and seine......
Oh yeah....get a book about wild edibles in you area......
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Mmmmm....some beans, squash and tobacco would go good with all the meat being harvested here....
I agree with the trapping idea....especially fish traps. The supply of land critters dries up quickly (no pun intended). ;D
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I'm glad Florida has more cows per acre than Texas or any other state. I like hunting dumb animals.
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So far we make the assumption we will continue to live where we are now but if there is much of a calamity unless you are "VERY" rural / remote, relocating out of the mainstream of those who haven't the skills to survive and the ones who would prey upon them will be necessary.
In this case what can you carry with you for how far.
No fuel at the station or Groceries in the local market for just 30 days would put many into panic mode another 30days would require the National Guard be called in for sure!
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Jack I think you give too many people too much credit. 2 weeks of the grocery stores being shut down would turn every major metropolitan center in America into a dog eat dog, kill or be killed fight for survival for those that didn't see it coming. :'(
Mullet has a valid point as well, killin a cow is not difficult and a feller with a bow and 3 buddies could have it dead , cut up and hauled off in less than an hour if the threat of imminent death hung over their heads. But things would be a bit different at that point. I doubt any farmer is gonna leave his cattle out away from the house where he can't keep an eye on 'em . They'll probably post guards in fact I know I would.
Hope it never comes to any of this stuff but I'd rather have my head around it before it gets here than to have to GET my head around it while its happening. :)
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Hope it never comes to any of this stuff but I'd rather have my head around it before it gets here than to have to GET my head around it while its happening. :)
Not just you but every one you are responsible for as well no on the job training here.
I figure the 1st 2 weeks they will huddle around the relief shelters and sports stadiums still believing the Government is going to take care of them giving the smart folks time to go the opposite direction as fast as you can
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I'm glad Florida has more cows per acre than Texas or any other state. I like hunting dumb animals.
Yeah! Eddie. But what happens when all the gas dries up for your mechanical joisting horse???? ;D
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Do you mean my jeep?, I make meat with it for fun. The first thing I would do is head for the least populated areas I know. Packing a Glass bow and arrows and a 22 rifle and as much ammo I could carry. Oh, my 22 would be my 10-22 with 30 round clips, for the reasons Steve brought up. one shot for game and a whole bunch for vultures. Plus if push came to shove, no small farms down here, just huge ranches. It would be easier to sneak and turkey hunt ranch hands protecting cattle with a 22 and bow.
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The trouble I see with traps, and there is only one, is that you ned alot of decent cordage for the traps I prefer (Paitue and variants thereof). Other than that, it would be the way to go.
As for crossbows and what not being mroe effective- my brother and I were at a buddy's place, and we wondered what a blunt arrow from a 20# kid bow would do (under drawn, about ten yards away). He missed my back and hit my elbow, which immediately smarted and began to bleed. Put a pointy stone flake on that and some one's gonna get it.
And then you eat them >:D!!!!
As was said, if it were to feed your family, we'd use the gun (if we had it). However, for me, the gun would definately be back up. Everywhere I've been that has game, one loud noise and they're all outta there. With a bow, they're outta there, just not so two or three hundred yards off. I'd rahter have a miss every once in a while and get a few more shots at them rather than getting one almost-certain kill for a few hours. Especially if they're small critters :P.
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If you are shooting 22's, head shots are usually a 1 shot deal. One shot is hard to locate from the noise, trust me , I know, thank goodness. Ahh,, fantasy is fun, We're all going to drown from Global Warming anyway.
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Only those that live in Florida! ;D
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A 22 CB short has just enough power to brain a deer and drop it where it stands, I have done it a couple of times and it is more quiet than most high powered air rifles. One thing is for sure, the barter system would be alive and kickin. I reload my center fires except fpr the SKS and usually keep enough bullets, powder, and primers to load several thousand rounds. I even have stuff for a few calibers that I no longer own. If push comes to shove, I would use the best that I had, whether it is a rifle, bow or butcher knife.
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Their way of looking at the sitation is no different than their forfathers 1000 years ago. Primitive skills is a matter of perspective. Man has never been primitive, He has always uesd the cutting edge technology of his time.
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A 22 CB short has just enough power to brain a deer and drop it where it stands, I have done it a couple of times and it is more quiet than most high powered air rifles.
Really? I can believe it though. How far away would it be effective? If you had a good steady .22 and knew how to stalk, you could probabaly be better off (you could still hear more deer after a few months of hunting ;) :D) than anyone else. Except for a shotgun, there aren't alot of guns that can kill all sizes of game without wasteing alot of meat.
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I was in one of those places where you don't want to draw attention to yourself. I could literally see the parking lot for the city police dept from where I was at. It was 100 yards away. I dropped one with a direct brain shot one day at twenty yards and the next day I dropped another at twenty eight yards with a shot to the corner of the eye. I did not want to risk the bullet not penetrating the skull. The second day there was two cops in the parking lot talking when I shot. They never even looked my way.
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Were you doin depredation for a municipality ? Or are you just some kinda suburban deer slayin ninja redneck feller? ???
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I will have to say the later, but only because I understood it.
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i would eat my little sister first....
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Hmmm. That is interesting... }I would have never imagined that, but yall do havce a point...
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WE HAVE A POINT? WHERE? ???
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I suspect cannibalism in the general population would start with in the first month or so. Vegies would probably begin eating people first, claiming they were doing their part to lower the population and save the earth or some other equally absurd environmental claim.
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I suspect cannibalism in the general population would start with in the first month or so. Vegies would probably begin eating people first, claiming they were doing their part to lower the population and save the earth or some other equally absurd environmental claim.
Doesn't sound absurd. Let them eat people. Means more tree rat for me >:D!!!
I think cannibalism would be a good thing. All the stupid people would eat each other and leave the necessary resources to the people who got a clue :D.
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You mean y'all don't already eat tourists? Fat, tender, and plentiful- perfect food source. ;D
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You GUYS are Sick!!! ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) HA
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We actually have a tourist season out here in MN. ;D
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Same here but...they're a bit stringy! :o ;D
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You mean y'all don't already eat tourists? Fat, tender, and plentiful- perfect food source. ;D
Depends on their diet...I've seen some big ol' fat greasy ones I'd have to pass on. They'd feed you for a while, but it would take too long to get to the lean meat.
Back O.T. for a minute, I used to work in a sports shop and there was no telling how many guys would come in the store the night before the opening day of deer season and want to buy a rifle, have me mount a scope on it, and intend to hunt with a bore sighted rifle the next morning. After a few of those, I flat out told the customer they were going to have to get someone else to mount the scope. They complained to the manager, but I stood my ground and the manager (also a hunter) sided with me. Deer season didn't come up as a surprise to anyone, a little forethought and a little respect toward the game you pursue is not too much to ask. Those fools are a danger to everything else living in & around the woods.
Archers can't get away with that kind of B.S....even the compound guys.
Making a lethal shot with an arrow takes skill and a lot of dedication & practice, much more so with traditional tackle.
Snares will fill your belly for sure, but you'd better be ready to defend your catch when you get there.
Jim
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If the markets went dry for 2 days, I wouldn't need meat yet...but I work on a dairy farm. If anybody has tried to clean, and then milk just one cow. They will get me. I always tell the cows, I got water I don't need milk. (Yes, I talk to cows)
I'd be down there in a minute to send a broadhead into a cows small brain! >:D
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Tourist? Too greasy and they all smell like coconut oil down here. I'm with madcrow, I've dropped a bunch of hogs with 22's with head shots. Some of the survivalist swear that the .410 shotgun with brass or steel cases are the ultimate survival gun. Cheap and easy to reload with modern or black powder. Either load with shot or .41 cal. round balls or buckshot.
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Mullet, I dont wanna hijack this thread, but what do you load up your 12ga with when hunting hogs, slugs or buckshot? Ive been wondering how effective buckshot is on hogs, and if buckshot where do you aim, the head or behind the shoulder?
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I read a few years ago on how to lower your dependance on three meals a day, or even a week. At first I was skeptical, but it turned out the woman's borther had just been really poor, working as a construction worker or something.
He slept somehting like 12 hours a day, at primarily meat (and lots of fats when he could). I think during off season he got away with two meals a week. I was suprised too, because he was a pretty fair sized guy. I think the idea was how to slow your metabolism down.
Anyway, thought it would be an interesting idea for TEOTWAWKI.
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kdub, I've never liked buckshot for hogs untill I started using a 3 1/2" Mag. When I'm using my shotgun and meat hunting, my first two loads are usually slugs and then the rest are buckshot. When you get in a bunch of them you stand a chance of dropping a couple real quick before all the running and crazy stuff starts happening.
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Kegan, wild animals basically do the same thing. When food is plentiful they eat and store body fat to line off of during the lean times. Fat people do the same now, unfortunately, food is plentiful and most people keep storing it up.
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Going back to the first post it's a lot like I am with bow building. I always said that if a native american had a bandsaw a other power tools (and power to run them) they would use them. When metal trade points came, they used them. When rifles became abundant, they used them. They were out to get meat for families, guns are efficient for that.
I love guns (gunsmith) and I always want more. But I also think about survival and a gun is more practical in that situation for defense rather than everyday hunting. Although I will agree on the .22 being great. Ammo is cheap to stock up on and lighter to carry. If Dumbacrats take our guns my solice is knowing I can always make more. They can't take my knowledge. So I learn to make archery tackle, trapping apparatus and which are edible plants. If it comes to TEOTWAWKI (I like that) I will take my family as far away as I need to to get away from the people that will likely panic and cause all sorts of problems. My guns will be used for defense and last resort meat getter. Need to keep ammo for when absolutely necessary.
possum
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kinda late jumpin in here but i have done many months of living off the land while still leading a normal life. work etc. if the crap hits the fan we are all screwed. even those of us with the most knowledge of living primitively. the first time i went a month living on wild plants and flesh opened my eyes to this. there are just too many people for the wild to support us. especially for those of us on the coasts with the densest populations.
as for your initial quandary marc. id take the gun if it really mattered any day over a primitive weapon, even a compound would do me well. once the projectiles ran out then i would use the knowledge ive attained over the years. survival is about expending the least amount of energy possible to gain the most comfort , be it calories or physical comfort. its already been said but traps outwork a bow everytime once your caloric needs and shelter are established then you can worry about getting a bow kill. peace
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In the survival mode,everything edible is utilized,the more knowledge you have of what is edible,the better you eat.Plants of course are essential,gotta know them and where to find them,proccess them.Meat turns out to be anything with flesh,from rats and small birds,fish and reptiles on up.I cannot get used to eating bugs no matter how many times except for bee larvae and ant larvae (those are tasty) the other deal is that you gotta keep moving,some places and some seasons,food is far between bites. The more mouths to feed,the tougher it is. Of course winter is always the toughest,but early spring can be skinny too. It is fun during warm weather though.Gotta watch for those game laws too ! Frank
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By the way, on the coasts with the densest populations, there won't be as many people after awhile because, sad to say, they will start killing each other to get what is left in those areas. :-[ And then, when those that don't know what they are doing and go into the wilderness and die, then the population will be closer to where the land can support it. It's Mother Nature's way of shrugging off the unnecessary and starting over.
possum