Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: nclonghunter on October 16, 2013, 11:11:18 pm
-
Do you use port cedar arrows and what is your opinion of them?
-
Do you use port cedar arrows and what is your opinion of them?
1) They have a natural tendency to stay straight
2) Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, smells better when they break
3) And they break easy so you don't have to wait long between smellin' 'em
Sitka spruce are typically about 5-10% heavier for a given spine weight but take far more abuse. If you like heavier arrows, I can't recommend ash shafting enough. But the trade off is that you better get good at straightening. I have typically straightened a set of ash shafts at least 5 x over the course of a couple weeks before they will stay straight. Maybe I am too shy about applying heat or too tentative in bending, but they chap my britches until I get 'em where they need to be.
Your mileage may vary.
-
nclonghunter, I have used them and they easily straighten and hold. Kind of a light shaft and probably back in the day it was the most popular shaft. They are excellent choice...They stain well and smell good to. What are you looking for? Hunting shafts and or target shafts?
-
JW pretty much summed it up, but I do like them and use them quite a bit,I do prefer Sitka tho. :)
Pappy
-
Thanks for the responses. I will be using them for hunting and I like heavy arrows. I just hate to use a self bow then shoot a carbon shaft but my expierience with natural cedar arrows is that they warp or bow easily. I will look at the Sitka shafts rather than cedar.
Who sells the ash shafts and are they as durable and heavy as Sitka shafts?
Thanks
-
Surewood shafts (available at Echo Archery) are old growth douglas fir, and they have been able to hold up to my crappy shooting. I only got a couple weeks of shooting out of the cedar shafts.
-
Try ash shafts. They are finicky in the straightness dept, but it can be done. They weight up real nice. 600 grains plus.
-
Pretty much use cedar exclusively. Cheap, good quality for the most part (straight grain and weight matched), and readily available.
-
nothing compares to river cane for weight and strength they are somewhat hard to straighten but once you get em straight they stay straight, i have no use for cedar as i shoot 75#+ and they just aren't anywhere near heavy enough, but back when i shot 50-60# i got some sitka spruce and they were pretty good, i also had some other POC from 3rivers that was awful they looked good and the grain was straight and tight but they would break if you blew on them, they did smell nice though. if your going to use a lighter wood i would suggest lodgepole pine (chundoo) i've had good luck with the stuff from 3rivers. i also use hickory quite a bit it's great if you like 650gn+ shaft. just my 2 cents worth, Duck
-
I learned to make arrows with cedars. Their downfall IMO is their brittleness and they are a bit light. Cedar arrows have probably killed more game than any other modern wood shafting(last 75 years).
-
No question Pat. There are plenty of hunters who still dont know they make other wood shafts than cedar!
-
I had a dozen cedar shafts, blew threw them in about two weeks target shooting. they do smell fantastic but the cost to use factor steered me towards making my own. between drying some shoots I tried making a few out of oak and poplar dowels from Lowes and was very pleased with results from both. I also used the old cedar shafts that broke near the tip to practice making footed arrows. they seem to be more durrable and I think look better with a walnut footing.
-
I started with cedar and it was a great learning experience. They were cheap then ( many years ago ) and in a premium grade required little work to straighten and keep them that way. I learned however to appreciate a heavier arrow and experimented with ramin, birch, laminated birch, hickory, ash, sitka spruce, Douglas fir and even maple. Dogwood shoots and cane arrows soon followed. I like the cane because generally the shafts are thinner for a given weight and heavier at the point end ( natural taper ). Those dogwood shafts are sturdy but to get a matched set might take a lifetime of work. After all the years and the natural progression of things, if I had to settle for one shaft now at this moment it would likely be the sitka spruce. There is certainly nothing wrong with cedar, but I think it is more difficult now to get the heavier weight and heavier spined cedar unless you increase the arrow diameter. My own choice would be sitka spruce or laminated birch in a 5/16 or 11/32 shaft tapered at the nock end.
-
I have about 200 that were given to me, matched 50-55 so I shoot them. Like everybody said they break easy. I prefer to hunt with Tonkin shafts or my pretty arrows made by Mr. Butner.
-
Only been in this primitive stuff a little over a year. But here is my experience
Cedar, great target arrow but doesn't tolerate stumping well at all.
Red osier dog wood, nearly indestructible but not as accurate.
Douglas fir, a good shaft that is somewhere between the two mentioned from my experience. They will warp a little tho. I really like them for hunting/stumping arrows. Kinda heavy as well which I like. full length 50-55 w 125 head weigh in around 530-580. I made up a dozen tree rat arras that were heavy and they go 590-620 with 145 gr blunts. They stop a tree rat in their tracks when shot out of my 69 lb wampanog paddle bow. :)
-
Cedars are a great arrow shaft but as stated above they aren't tough enough to withstand rough usage. Years ago I switched to aluminum's, then tried carbons for about a year. After returning to woods I tried sitka spruce, hex shafts, douglas fir, and settled on tapered poplar as the best shaft material for me. I still use the old barrel tapered poplar shafts made by Don Stokes, trade name "Superceders" that he marketed back in the 90's. If I'm not shooting them it's good bamboo or cane which is a tough shaft material for any occasion.
-
What are you guys shooting your cedar shafts at?? I don't find them fragile at all, even for stumping. I rarely break an arrow... much more prone to losing them!
-
What are you guys shooting your cedar shafts at?? I don't find them fragile at all, even for stumping. I rarely break an arrow... much more prone to losing them!
elk, deer, jackrabbits, cottontails, stumps, weeds, grass, sticks, pheasants, sharptail, geese, ducks, hay bales, bag targets and 3d targets
-
What are you guys shooting your cedar shafts at?? I don't find them fragile at all, even for stumping. I rarely break an arrow... much more prone to losing them!
Adam; we hunt in a jungle down here. Hit a wrist size grape vine, then richocet off the oak next to it and then bounce off of the hickory tree and watch it explode. Hit a hog, watch him reach back and bite it off wile it is sticking in him or, fall over dead and you have another broke one. I can start a 3-D tournament with a dozen and on a bad day have six broke. That's why I shoot carbons and tonkin out of my glass bows and cane, tonkin mostly except for the cedars given to me out of my wood bows.
-
It's hard to beat a well made bamboo arrow out of a self bow. There a PITA to build but well worth the time and effort. I rarely ever brake one, they are way more durable than Cedar
-
I agree Cain is tougher but I have no real problem with POC as long as you get quality shafts,I have seen some that would break with just a mild hit ,but the good compressed ones hold up good for me, Eddie I do loose one on most deer but that goes for most shafts if they stay with the animal and he falls on it. ;) :)I will trade a shaft for a deer any day. :) That being said I do like Poplar and Hickory for the weight ,just more trouble to straighten and keep that way. Siska spruce is really shafting also that I really like. :)
Pappy
-
Douglas firs work for me along with the tonkin bamboo.The thing I like about surewood shafts is when you order from them directly they've given me hand selected douglas firs.Very little variance in the weight you order in spine and mass.Makes for a more consistent batch of arrows.
-
I've had real good results with Chudoo shafts. Some of the first,"custom" shafts I bought from a man in Alabama, last name was Breed, Breeden? Don't remember it was about 15 years ago. Good weight, barrel tapered and I still shoot the last half dozen I have left.
-
I will second what JW said.
-
I got a hold of some old Acme POC shafts, they are definitely tougher and harder than the newer POC shafts.
I have yet to find a more durable shaft than Hill Cane, stuff is incredible. I have had the same 4 arrows since March. I have bounced them off more targets and tree's than I care to remember, they still look new.
-
I was turned off to cedar arrows very quickly. They were some of my very first arrows that I made myself, and I had put a lot of time into them. Then of course I broke nearly all of them within 24 hours of finishing them. It might have been poor craftsmanship, but most of the next set that I made from ash shafts is still around over a year later. They do need more straightening, but I enjoy that part so its no hassle for me.
-
Hunter, back in the 70's I use to buy 100 POC a year from Acme wood products. What these fellows say is all to true, they break too easy. Usually, in my experience, they break right behind the tip, or field point. outfitting my kids with the shorter shafts was no problem, but after a few years I had boxes of like new arrows that were about an inch too short, so I started putting a hardwood footing on them. It not only gives them an extra life but they are more durable.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,9724.195.html
As my primal urges grew, I found that for me, ash was the better arrow, heavier, stronger, more durable, and as the English used to say,"it hits with good stripe"! These I would make right from the tree, insuring that I had straight grain from nock to fore tip with no grain run out. My son is not interested in the shaping of the shafting and buys ash shafting in dowel form, I think from a place called Allegheny mountain hardwoods, or something like that. They seem to be good stuff, but not as good as mine. :D
Robby
-
I buy fine grained clear doug fir and find it stronger than POC. A little smaller average diameter for the spine I use (55#) they usually come in at 11/32. I like to finish mine at 500 grains with a 125 grain tip and don't have any problem hitting that. I also find the self nocks hold up much better than the plastic.
-
I think POC shafts are the best, BUT I have started to "foot" them because just hitting a straw 'Target Archery' target can fracture the wood where the pile ends. ( the arrow looks ok but when you grasp it to remove it from the target it breaks off leaving the pile in the target.I have had none break since footing.
-
It seems like a few people have commented on them breaking behind the point, as mine have done. I'm wondering if it has to do with using hot melt glue sticks and getting the wood too hot?
-
I think its the transition from wood to steel Eddie. Its an abrupt difference in strength, great place to break.
-
The Quality of POC that is sold today,aint what it used ta be.Wapiti still makes the same quality that Rogue river used to.
-
It seems like a few people have commented on them breaking behind the point, as mine have done. I'm wondering if it has to do with using hot melt glue sticks and getting the wood too hot?
No it's not the hotglue,I dont use any glue I use screw on piles, I think it is just the weakpoint of the shaft and if there is any side wind as the arrow hits the target the abrupt stopping of the arrow bends it sideways.
-
I have some of the screw on points also Bill,no tapering just run a sizing tool on the point end and screw it on,it does make them much less likely to break at the point,the problem is they are hard to fine and pretty pricey,I had a bunch give to me to try out and the tools to go with them.Still have several just not in the weight range I use. :)
Pappy
-
I think cedar arrows are one of the main reasons folks are wanting to go with carbons. Old growth is not a sustainable resource. Same with spruce. I found ash too heavy for the spine and tends to warp constantly. That's why I have chosen to branch out (no pun intended) and try different wood types.
-
Tonkin is tough as nails.i have some magnolia(yellow poplar)barrel tapered shafts from Don Stokes.i really like them.they are also tough.i like the smell of cedar.the problem is,with my poor shooting I get to smell it all to often.
-
Poplar is my favorite. If you can find good grain in the dowel rods at lowes, and you can steam straighten em, you will get some excellence shafts for super cheap. It is pretty darn durable too, I abuse the crap out of my arrows. The way I treat my arrows, I doubt cedar would hold up.
-
I generally shoot Port Orford Cedar, but I'm primarily a target archer, and even then they break all the freaking time. It's been driving me crazy. I broke three arrows at the National Traditional Target Archery Championships this year, and they were all hits on the target. It was just the bales that are built super-tight for skinny carbon arrows. The force of the arrow going in and coming out was too much for them. All the breaks are behind the head. It's brutal. I really want to find something that has the same consistency for target accuracy but that doesn't break if you look at it funny.
-
I got some poplar shafts from Charlie Jefferson last year and really like them. I made a tapering tool and tapered the rear 9" from 11/32" to 5/16" at the nock. Both parrallel and tapered poplar shafts fly well and they are quite durable. This is from someone that prefers sourwood shoots or hill cane; two of the toughest shaftings I know of.
I started with cedar. Bought most of it from 3Rivers. I would order the spine I wanted and make arrows. I guess ignorance is bliss because they always flew well for me. Back when I started making arrows there wasn't much to choose from and cedar was the most common. Today you can buy shafting from lots of different woods and you can even make your own with a small investment in tools and some well seasoned wood.
-
Today you can buy shafting from lots of different woods and you can even make your own with a small investment in tools and some well seasoned wood.
Soon as I get me some spare cash, I am gonna get me one of those veritas dowel cutter tools. It is only like 50 bucks for the whole 3/8" set up, which should give you up to 80 or 90 spine depending on how long you want you arrrows I'm guessin? Menards and lowes both goth plenty of straight grain poplar and pine for the pickin, I'm thinking this will be oodles cheaper than ordering already cut and spined shafts.
-
Cedar is good, they helped me learn the craft. I would only go back to them if I had to, because I had no shoot shafts left. Last few years I have making shoot shaft arrows from, wild rose, hazelnut, syringa, ocean spray, birch, red osier and just about anything else I can get my hands on. Shoot arrows are much more durable and I can make them just as straight " fairly often". I have had my syringa arrows blow through half inch plywood on several occasions and not brake, they only weigh in the 500 grain range I believe. I don't think cedar could handle that, I would start off with a dozen cedar shafts and in two weeks I would probably be down to less then half. My six shoot shafts I made in 2006 are still with me. I have not broke one yet "knock on wood", I just have shot the knocks off one or two.
-
I find the hobby pine boards spine around 55-70 on the tighter grained stuff. On the not as tight stuff I had trouble getting 55 spine after running through the doweller and sanding it smooth. That's 3/8ths. I really like how straight the shafts are and how you can pick your grain, but I find the pine breaks off at the point just like cedar. I've started footing my pine shafts for this reason. Have yet to try with the poplar. That's home depot pine hobby boards.
-
I still have sourwood arrows I made back in 2009. I can't say that for Port Orford Cedar.
-
I have made several dozen POC from old premium ACME stock and they do break easy. I have seen others shoot modern day POC and it breaks very easily. That said, Wapiti is making high quality POC. Sitka spruce is tougher and is a little heavier. Douglas fir is just as tough as sitka spruce, but is heavier. Sitka spruce gets a reputation for being tougher than fir only because it is technically stronger per mass, but in practice, fir is just as tough as sitka, it just makes a heavier arrow.
Surewood Shafts is a small company based here in Oregon. I have had the privilege of seeing their business grow tremendously over the last six years as my dad is one of the three partners. Like Beadman said, you get hand-selected shafts of very closely matched spine and mass. Their hunter grade is better than other suppliers premium grade in my opinion. Their premium grade shafts are now recognized as the highest quality wood shafts on the market. I truly admire their unwillingness to compromise.
-
+1 for Carson.
I used Sitka spruce off and on for a while. Always wanted to try Doug fir but wasn't sure where to get em. Met Carson at a shoot and I brought all my junk cedar arrows I had bought from 3rivers. All different spine and what not. shot the course horribly, all the shots went over the back of the target and broke, and sometimes even if they did hit they would break. By the end I had 2 junk arras left. Carson handed me a half dozen arrows from Doug fir. And I hit the course again....could not miss even if I tried! The weight was perfect! The arrows flew true and after that I've been buying surewood premium shafts ever since. I have a few dozen spruce shafts on the shelf. But I also have Doug fir on the shelf and I'll grab the fir 9 times out of 10.
If I had tapered and footed fir shafts....I would cry with joy.
-
You just sold me a dozen Carson! Ive been ho-humming for 3-4 years about getting some from those guys. Now that I know your dad is in it, I have a connection. I like supporting, in a round about way, my friends.
-
I am glad I could push you over the fence, Chris ;) I would like to hear what you think of them.
-
I never met an arrow material I didnt like! Some are just better. Ill give you my full report in a month or so Carson. I love a parallel wood shaft that weighs up just a bit more than cedar. I like a finished 29" arrow with 145 up front to come in around 570-600 if I cant help it.
-
PD, I don't think you will be disappointed. I have a 3/4" plywood backstop behind my target and when I was learning how to shoot I could only miss once with a cedar. With the Surewood shafts I have shot each arrow into the wood many times and I have only broken one arrow in hundreds and hundreds of shots. yes I was a pretty bad shot. ::)