Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: M2A on February 03, 2022, 10:24:40 pm
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Hi folks. My goal as of late has been to be able to make a finished point to a pre determined size to be more consistent. Like many folks I suppose I started to knap with the intentions to make hunting points for myself. Looking at posts here and watching videos has given me the understanding most make points between 1-1.5 inches wide. Minimum legal width for me is 7/8". That's all good however I seem to miss is where anyone suggests a good lenght for points. Maybe its too simple of a question.
With all that in mind I decided to make a few just for fun at what seemed right for me. The 3 in the middle of the pic below turned out 1" wide and within an 1/8" of 2" long. Then I decided to try for more extreme lenghts. Point on the left is 15/16" equal on all sides, Looks tiny but legal and I was pretty amazed on how small a flake I needed to make it. Seems to be a real good way to conserve on resources. So then I figured I'd go big. Point on the right is just shy of 4" and 1-1/8" at the base. Its too long, I know, but was a good challenge. However It did end up a bit thicker than I wanted. Glad I tried tho because I can look at it and think yup thats overkill in lenght.
So my question any of you folks that make points to hunt with, What lenght do you try and achieve with your points? And Does it make a big difference?
thanks, Mike
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51861125619_cabb82f0fc_w.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/47GwiZ)IMG_4500 (2) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/47GwiZ) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
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I believe it was Howard Hill that expressed the 3 to 1 style broadhead, also read the Ashby reports on arrow head penetration studys and he also came to the 3 to 1 ratio worked the best for his self. Personally for myself I like mine just a narrow as legal possible 7/8" in Pa. but to me more important is your transiting from shaft to point, needs to be very smooth no great big lumps of hafting or glue blobs, and very very sharp. Just my .02 :D Bob
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I’m pretty much in the same camp as outback. I think narrow is probably better than wider. Smooth transition, neat wrap.
One other thing is good flight.
The straighter they fly, the better they penetrate.
Not sure how much stock to put in what I said. Since I haven’t ever taken anything with a stone point yet, but I have shot a lot of them at my targets.
Bjrogg
PS I like the three in the middle. I might even narrow them up just a tad.
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What they said, also with a very sharp tip.
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Thanks Bob! So 2 5/8 long it is. Longer than I expected. :OK
Your a few steps ahead of me BJ. I have not hafted a point to a shaft yet. Sometimes if I make extreme examples it gives me a better understanding than just thinking about it, so thats why the end 2 examples.
Thanks folks,
Mike
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Did you happen to weigh any of them and see how many grains they are
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The weight doesn't really matter. You will probably find that they will be light compared to steel broadheads.
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It matters if he has a weight goal and in matching points
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Never looked at the weight of any point I tried to make yet, so went down and checked it out this morning. Didnt know what to expect to be honest. From my understanding stone should be lighter, just like Mullet said. From left to right in pic 31,113,116,90,370 grains. A little heavier than I had hoped but I know they are not as thin as they maybe should be.
I'll have to try again with some different dimensions, but I agree Allyn that weight should be consistent with in a few(maybe 5-10 grains?) Lots to consider.
Mike
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If your using trad type bows and 20 yds and under for hunting distances 50 grain differences in weight is nothing to worry about, 99% of shooters can't tell the difference in accuracy at that distance, Precision wts. and FOC and speed are a wheely mentality thing, Haft them up and see which ones shoot best for you, resharpen and use, make real sure on the sharpness. Shot placement is crucial with all types of points, If hit in the ass with a stone point or latest new fangled head It is still an ass hit. Bob
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You are better off to match your weight by total weight of arrow. That way you can match lighter heads with heavier shafts. Like Bob said shooting the shorter distances and self bows, weight forward and shot placement are more important. I've always found a shaft that would match up with as point.
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Thanks for the information Bob and Mullet. Much appreciated.
Mike
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I try to keep mine at 7/8 wide 2" long for stone.. most important is trued up.. and sharp.. gut
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Thanks for the input Gut!
Mike
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Little late to the party but I’ll chime in. I go for an inch by 2-2 1/4 inches long which seems to make a good weight. You’ve gotta remember Ashby reports are for penetrating bone. The first rule is structural integrity which bone beats stone every time so we immediately accept that none of the rest matter. You have to accept that with stone we can only take the close, broadside, quartering away hopefully shot. And I hunt with literally everything, super modern to literal sticks and stones, I’m a numbers and math nerd though and a realist.
So a 2 to 1 gets me almost 80-90 grains with obsidian, I use pine pitch glue and sinew to hold the point and taper the glue down the point so that there’s no “shelf”. It adds another 15-20 grains. I use ocean spray shoot shafts which are naturally tapered and help with FOC (which helps with stabilizing the arrow) and that combo I’ve hunted elk with. The natives probably didn’t realize the science behind what they used but they used what worked better and it ends up the science backs it up. Those “bird points” are great at penetrating and allow the use of smaller shafts like todays micro diameter arrows which are more forgiving, add penetration, buck the wind better, and all sorts of benefits. Also uses less precious resources(knappable stone!).
In conclusion, those middle 3 look like money!! Get em sharp, put them in the vitals and they’ll kill for ya.
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I really like this one. It just looks like it wants to slice thru something.
It’s 2 3/4” tip to end of steam
1” wide and thin but with spine up the center.
It’s also very sharp
Bjrogg
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Not late at all Tracker, thanks for the input. I'm still working on this and suppose I will be for a good long while. Its just too easy to carry a few flakes in my jacket and work on them during the day. Finished one over the weekend at 2 3/8 in length final weight came in at 133g.That did seem a bit long but still think I'll eventually haft it and try out for experience. But got me thinking that 2 "+ or - is a good lenght so set that as my goal. So was good to see you and Gutpile are in that general ballpark. For whatever reason I have liked to make simple triangle points but figured it would be in my best interest for now is to side notch them. Worked on 2 yesterday but need to notch yet. Hope to get a few more pics on here later in the week. I suppose this is old hat to many folks here, if so ignore my ramblings. Im just having fun, It has been my goal to hunt with equipment I made, never thought it would take as long as has but I keep adding things to the list. Maybe this year, maybe next who knows. For now the hunt is making the best equipment I can. Need to re watch a Ryan Gill video again on sharpening also Im pretty sure Jackcrafty has one as well.
Thats a good point BJ. looks razor sharp. I broke a couple obsidian pieces over the weekend pressure flaking :). I need a little lighter hand when working on that stuff.
Mike
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I'm in the same boat, I thought I'd be hunting with stone points this year but that didn't happen. Need to get my flintknapping good enough to make hunting points and then I need to make another bow that is a little better than my first one. I'm too heavy handed with obsidian as well, I think I've hit too much chert.
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I was one of the ones that responded when Ryan Gill was looking for knappers to make him preforms, he gets overwhelmed with bow/arrow/knife/point orders so he buys sets of preforms at times and then finishes them himself, and he sent me a casting of his preforms before sharpening so I use that as my go to size. It’s a little over the 2 to 1 ratio, which my knapping stuff is covered and under a foot of snow currently though or i’d gladly send it to ya! It’s nice having a 3D reference. Once it melts out I could send it to ya though if you’d like!
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Mike I don’t mind the rambling at all. Nice to see some one besides myself rambling on. I really like seeing as many on here as we can get. It feels kinda lonely around here at times.
Obsidian is definitely a different critter than chert. I struggled for a long time making sharp points. It isn’t all the same either. I can do percussion good on it, but I’ve had a lot of trouble with my edge not being strong enough and crumbling with pressure flaking. I generally get pretty close now with percussion and then abrade lightly but enough to remove weak lose stuff. Then I use either pressure or indirect to sharpen them up good try to take a nice flake that doesn’t crumble leaving a good sharp edge.
Bjrogg
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Thanks for the offer Tracker! That would be cool to see that preform cast. Would not want to interfere with any business venture you have with my hobby. But that would be interesting to size up bifaces or even spalls and flakes to see if they have the size at the start. Let me know when the snow melts. Thanks!
I hear ya Allyn. I don't have a time table anymore. Only when I feel good about my equipment is when Ill take it out. Learning/perfecting the skills has been alot of fun over the years.
BJ, hope to try a few flakes of obsidian again soon. I would like to make an antler pressure flaker 1st or spend the few minutes to sharpen up a tine. I have had my best success with that stuff with an antler billet I made but have not made the time to make a quality tine flaker so was putting too much pressure an breaking things in half. But been using copper on any other stone so far. Have yet to get indirect down, worked at it a few weeks ago and think I determined I needed to change the angle of contact but have not got back to that yet. I can see how it would be a useful skill to have.
Mike
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Mike I like antler and stone for obsidian to. The antler seems a grip the edge better and I have less crumbling.
It took me a while to get comfortable with indirect. It looks so easy, but it’s hard to get comfortable. I find I do better if I put the point to the tip of my flaker rather than put my flaker to my point. I also have better flakes when I put inward pressure with my legs to drive a longer flake. That’s why I put the point where the flaker is. If I put pressure against my edge I don’t slip off it as bad that way. I’ve more than once slipped off edge to center of point just as baton was coming down. Ruined my points
Bjrogg
PS it seems to help if I strike flaker close to its end and not in just in the middle of it
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Appreciate all the information from everyone in this thread. Going to keep working at it. Here's what I come up with to this point.
Thx, Mike
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51909615044_27a935b48b_w.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/3N0U14)IMG_4509 (2) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158435722@N02/3N0U14) by Mike Allridge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158435722@N02/), on Flickr
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those look nice.. deep big serration are hit or miss .. some tend to grab hide and hinder penetration.. I try to keep mine micro serrated.. but those look nice.. ratio looks good too... for pressure flaking obsidian it is critical to abrade well..I use a callahan pad or a pad that has built up edges with notch cut out of center.. really helps with a well abraded edge to put enough pressure on the edge and drive a long flake to center with out the edge crumbling.. once a good straight trued edge is set I can come back with a horseshoe nail of tiny point antler to do micro serrating and keep that trued up edge straight.. congrats on your heads.. gut