Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Flight Bows => Topic started by: JNystrom on August 29, 2016, 06:09:57 pm
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I want to know everything about these laminated wood arrows. I've been searching information, but have only read couple of lines here and there. There are offcourse info about the bamboo laminated arrows, but not wood laminates from spruce/larch for example.
I suppose the basic idea is the same, laminate strips of some stiff wood to a hex shape? Or just laminated strips of wood on top of itself, without the 8 piece hex shape. What are the best combinations? Do you get any good arrow out of spruce by heat treated strips laminated just on top of each other without working it to an more complicated hex shape?
Well soon i'm going to try by myself, but before that i though i might just get some tips from here...
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If you can find 100# western larch in 11/32 shafts I believe it will give you an optimum weight and diameter without laminating. Laminating to itself might even improve it.
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There is a build along on paleoplanet where Alan Case shows how to make the hex cane shafts. I've followed it and made a few dozen, it's not too hard and you'll work it out as you go.
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Thanks!
Indeed i need to find stiff material for testing. Here in finland i can find spruce and pine easily, and because of that maybe find some special pieces of extra stiff wood. Larch is a bit harder to find, well not that hard either, but some.
mikekeswick: Im looking for the wood only shafts, not cane of bamboo. But actually i found some tips about wooden laminated arrows under the topic of hex cane shafts.
I think the user redhawk55 here has done some experiments with wood laminated arrows.
What i understood, was that the shaft can be made by just laminating strips on top of each other and then later on worked to a shaft. So you dont need the hex shape for wood laminated arrows. Its good news, cause the making of these arrows plainly by laminating strips is a lot easier...
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I have been playing with this lately. I have made some 2 ply birch, 3 ply cedar, 4 ply birch, and a 5 layer birch and cedar. As with any lamination, your glue line is of the utmost importance. The more glue lines, the larger margin for error. The 3 ply cedar at 3/8 spines out pretty heavy. The Birch a bit lower. The cedar spines out at almost the same as a solid hard maple shaft, but is much lighter.
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I had some old pine skirting board that was V tight grain and made nice flight arrows. I made one up from two thin off cuts glued together with the grain running at angles. ////\\\\, it seemed V good, stiff and straight.
Del
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I have made them == and ll and lll and =l= . Perhaps its time to try \\//. And maybe one day //oo\\
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I suppose the glue line creates some added weight, so best suited wood would be light, and stiff of course. Something like pine/larch/spruce.
Playing with the grain angles is interesting. Is wood stiffer with specific grain angle?
One thing that was tested at paleoplanet was some inserts of stiffer wood at the middle of arrow shaft. By getting weight at the middle, the arrow would straighten much easier. Could you insert even some horn strips or such? That would be interesting, getting more the barreled effect without real dimensional barreling.
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Are you looking for minimal mass per stiffness?
much of the stiffness is determined by the outside diameter at the middle of the shaft. Hollowing of the core can reduce mass without affecting stiffness too much, but a heavier core might be not be effective if low mass is important.
I would think that grain orientation would have it's greatest effect when the grain is coarser, and with woods that have large density differences between early and late woods. (ash, doug fir etc.) , but it might be difficult to utilize any advantages.
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Does the glue joint orientation affect the stiffness in that direction? I'm not even sure I understand that question but I'll hope for the best ;D
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Does the glue joint orientation affect the stiffness in that direction? I'm not even sure I understand that question but I'll hope for the best ;D
It seems to, that is why I tried to make some with a joint going both up and down, and side to side. So =l=
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The way to make the cane arrows is how to make wooden arrows like this...just the wooden arrows are easier!
What is your goal? The best flight arrows? Tonkin is better than wood for this application.
Yes wood has different stiffness in different grain orientations. It is stiffest when bent at 90degs to 1/4 sawn. Horn has low bending resistance compared to wood and is 1.3s.g. so would be a poor choice to go inside a hollow shaft. You would want highest stiffness for density. Something like purpleheart or b.locust.
Also remember that all the 'modern' laminated wood shafts are made that way simply so they can use less than perfect stock and still get a pretty strong, resistant to breakage arrow. The gluelines in themselves don't help much to increase stiffness per se.
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I think the glue line does increase spine a bit, But I am sure that it does increase the elasticity of the wood.
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Mike
just curious, but doesn't something like spruce have the highest stiffness per density?
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Willie, I think with flight arrows we actually need to use denser woods, stiffness is always an issue. I have had the best luck with purple heart and larch so far. Some doug fir I have found is dense and stiff as well.
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Willie, I think with flight arrows we actually need to use denser woods, stiffness is always an issue. I have had the best luck with purple heart and larch so far. Some doug fir I have found is dense and stiff as well.
Did you mean "....we actually need to use denser woods, stiffness ISN't always an issue"?
With spruce you get really stiff and light arrows, even though they seem to come quite thick (at least my rookie arrows). Last quite "ok" spruce arrow, 23" long, with ~63-65 pound draw was 7,7mm thick.
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Willie, I think with flight arrows we actually need to use denser woods, stiffness is always an issue. I have had the best luck with purple heart and larch so far. Some doug fir I have found is dense and stiff as well.
Did you mean "....we actually need to use denser woods, stiffness ISN't always an issue"?
With spruce you get really stiff and light arrows, even though they seem to come quite thick (at least my rookie arrows). Last quite "ok" spruce arrow, 23" long, with ~63-65 pound draw was 7,7mm thick.
Yes, denser woods. How much did your spruce arrow weigh? 65# spine at 7.7 mm is very good
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when comparing designs of equal stiffness, I am guessing that the extra drag created with the larger diameter spruce would negate the initial speed gained when using the lighter wood.
drag being "what it is" at typical flight arrow velocity (300 fps?), could the woods mentioned as preferred be considered a good compromise stiffness/ mass?
Btw, purpleheart is often listed at .85 S.G.
Does the better fine grained doug fir / western larch seem to have similar densities?
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I think the glue line does increase spine a bit, But I am sure that it does increase the elasticity of the wood.
Static spine maybe a little but arrows spin ;) I was talking about dynamic spine.
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On a 23" arrow I seldom go below about 170 grains usually closer to 200 grains. I can do that with purpleheart, doug fir, po cedar and many other woods. The larch, Purple heart and doug fir seem to give me better diameters. The speeds from the 50# bows are usually in the 240 fps range with 200 grain arrows.
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Willie, I think with flight arrows we actually need to use denser woods, stiffness is always an issue. I have had the best luck with purple heart and larch so far. Some doug fir I have found is dense and stiff as well.
Did you mean "....we actually need to use denser woods, stiffness ISN't always an issue"?
With spruce you get really stiff and light arrows, even though they seem to come quite thick (at least my rookie arrows). Last quite "ok" spruce arrow, 23" long, with ~63-65 pound draw was 7,7mm thick.
Yes, denser woods. How much did your spruce arrow weigh? 65# spine at 7.7 mm is very good
It weighted 188gr. I dont think the shaft was even that specially stiff for spruce.
Well nice to hear, of course while trying these laminated arrows im going to try make smaller and stiffer spruce arrows, and maybe find purpleheart.
Actually im afraid the 188gr spruce arrow was under spined... Well see after some testing. I happen to have a good 330+ yard field to test shoot some.
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I should have left purple heart out of that group. Even though I have gotten some great arrows from purple heart the grain is hard to read and it is prone to splintering, same with ipe.
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This is soon coming to an -all arrows- thread, but what ever. :D Theres never enough information about flight arrows!
About the purpleheart arrows... Here in Finland, many records are made with purpleheart arrows. I don't know if the active shooters just copied others and never actually experimented different species enough, or that purpleheart is actually very good wood for flight arrows.
What i have heard atleast, is that it makes very thin arrows, atleast compared to the common spruce.
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I'm back working with laminated flight arrows. Because of a very torturing exchange period in Crete :laugh: and a period of no-bow-making, my laminated arrows haven't proceeded that much. I have some test strips glued together that i'm looking forward to spinning into shafts. As the snow starts to melt down, there will be furious tests with laminated arrows also!
Just got me thinking of these arrows, is the heat treating. Throw it in there too. Possibly get the weight down, stiffness up, moisture barrier, shrink - what is it, but try atleast.
Has anyone done any resent experiments with laminated arrows?
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Has anyone done any resent experiments with laminated arrows?
No, but I am drying some spruce for projects this coming winter.
Any updates on how your laminated arrows are working out?
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Actually nothing special. I heat treated the spruce slats and then glued. Ended up nice straight, but not stiffer than normal 1 piece arrow without heat treatment- i think... They were made from quite bad spruce, so i have some interest to try it again.
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I tried some black spruce with very high ring count with disappointing results.
After reading this I have decides to look at other factors to find some stiffer boards
https://spruce2015.ualberta.ca/Portals/15/SpruceDocuments/Presentations/b1-sattler.pdf?ver=2015-10-26-161149-583
http://timber.ce.wsu.edu/resources/papers/9-5-2.pdf
TDLR: higher cambrial age, lower growth rate, lower stand elevation, and wood taken from lower in tree all increase odds for higher stiffness.
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>:D be glad to send out some super well aged (like40 years)cedar fence slats! >:D Actually it is probably to brittle, I can snap most of it by hand. Just trying to figure out what to do with it, besides firewood, burns real fast. Can't cook with it or smoke hides! Does have a nice smell when burning, though. Right now, I am staying with red osier dogwood shoots and maybe some Sitka spruce. Haven't found a straight cedar long enough to do anything with! Good info, everybody.
Hawkdancer
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I made hunting arrows out of Black Spruce a long time ago, just gave one of the last ones I had left to a young Cree from Moose Factory. The wood is quite stiff for it's density but it can be a bit brittle.
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Would that be Western Red cedar? I guess the most important thing is how stiff is it?
I think that most spruces are fairly similar in stiffness, given the same growing conditions. The Black I tried was weak most likely on account of being overmature and stunted, it can grow in some rather wet locations and the extremely high ring count did not count for much. Black spruce around here, if growing in a drier than typical location are quite similar to White spruce and the local White spruce hybridizes with Sitka spruce.
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Every Black Spruce tree I have ever cut was dense and hard. Practically all Black Spruce trees around here growth in swampy conditions. There is quite a difference in the bending strength of the different Spruce trees with Black, Sitka and Red being close to the same
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Mark,
Other data I have reviewed also shows a highly variable range of MOE's for white spruce. I am not surprised that many regard it as a weaker species. Latewood density is said to be a factor, but good luck trying to differentiate the early/late ratio with the spruce I have seen around here. Don't know if some of the other species are as variable
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While we are on the subject, I do have some lengths of Purple Heart long enough for arrow shafts - I would make about a 28" shaft for my draw, assuming I can get a straight grain, what diameter for a 45# - 50# bow at My draw of 26-27"? A serious inquiry as I am trying to relearn old skills.
Hawkdancer
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I was going to try using shoots for flight arrows years ago but never got around to doing so.
You would be better off asking that question on the arrow forum Hawk.
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Marc,
Thanks, I'll open a thread there.
Hawkdancer