Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: burtonridr on August 04, 2016, 10:42:33 am
-
Hey everyone,
I’m working on laying out a modoc/paddle/hupa/shorty bow(is there a difference, they all look about the same) and I’m hoping a few people with experience building these types of bows can chime in. I’ve been doing a lot of searching trying to find the right starting dimensions for these types of bows. I think I’ve got a good set of layout dimensions for around a 44” bow, but I would like to make one at 54” long. So my thought is to basically scale things up, and make the limbs a little wider, so proportionally it looks about the same. But here is my big unknown that I’m trying to figure out. If I go with lets say 2.5” wide limbs at 54” n2n, I’m guessing my limbs are going to start getting pretty thin as I tiller it down. Is there a point where too thin will start hurting the bow performance? I should also mention that I plan to back this with Jute and TBIII. I plan to build this from a 4-5” round maple or elm stave, maybe from locust….
Next question I have deals with the tillering, I read somewhere that it’s a good idea to tiller to 10”. Then do your recurve, backing, etc before final tiller. I also read that during final tiller it’s a good idea to focus on the inner limb and fades to get the handle working towards the end of the draw? Can someone explain their tiller process on these bows? I’ve never built a bow with a working handle.
When you recurve the tips, what is a good radius? I don’t want to push things to the max, just give it a nice recurve. If I’m going to boil the tips, how long should I boil?
-
Making these bows is tough, to go as wide as some of the originals, yes your bow will get quite thin.
The thinner it gets the harder it gets to tiller. These are by no means a beginner bow style.
I don't have any experience with jute backing, I'd recommend just making a self bow to start.
Get the limbs bending nice and even, enough so you can get the bow braced. I usually recurve when my bows are 5-6" shy of my intended length. Then you can slowly start to bring your handle in the bend. Bend at whatever radius you want, lots of guys use paint cans for templates
-
Tillering these bows is very tough.
I have made some of this type, here are two with some info:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=40103.0
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,37246.0.html
Recently loefflerchuck had a nice one here, also search legionaire archery (cesars website)
-
Check out lofflerchuck bows on this site lots of examples
-
@Wizardgoat
Thanks that’s very helpful, I will work it down to near 5 inch of full draw and try putting in a recurve at that point.
Why try a self bow first? Do you mean build it as a self bow, then back it when its done being tillered?
@bubby
I will try searching for lofflerchuck and his bows.
@simson
The bows on those links are just AWESOME! I hope I can get mine to come out that nice.
-
absolutely stunning work simson!
Good luck burtonridr. I hope I'll try one after making a few D bows and pyramid bows..
-
Cutting your profile wider isn't necessarily a bad thing. You can always take more off, and since most paddle bows are lenticular in cross section if you end up getting really thin you will likely lose some width keeping your edges from becoming real sharp. When you rough it out leave the edges of the lentil? thick, 1/4" or so and let that be part of the final shaping. Establish a back, regardless of rings but preferably just decrowning. I like to get to brace, and at least out 10-15" before recurving. Your handle will be a bit thicker, and the taper from there through the widest part is usually where I end up scraping. There and through the handle, and near the tips. I use a 3" radius for short 35" bows and it looks about right, just keep trying paint cans like wizard goat said. Make sure everything is even before you apply your backing, and you'll have an easy time scraping it to final tiller. Hope this helps somewhat you're in the best of hands with the bowyers who commented above.
-
Just wanted to give a quick update on this bow. I set the bow aside for awhile, but picked it up again the other day. I did put in a deflex(?) at the tips, but as I tillered out, the set has pretty much eliminated the deflex. The bow seems to take a set after I unstring it, the will relax back to being straight after a few hours.
I've got it out to full tiller at 24" draw and about 40# of weight. However, there is nasty little crack that developed on the back just outside the fades. So I filled it with super glue and hoped for the best. Now that I'm at full tiller, the little crack stopped with the fix, but just outside the crack it started again. So now I'm considering backing it with a few layers of silk.
Any thoughts on the behavior of the wood taking set and then relaxing or backing it to save it?
-
what about pics??? >:D
-
what about pics??? >:D
It kind of looks like it just got out of bed.... Its not very pretty, I still need to finish it.
But hey, if you want to see some pics I will put a few up ;)
-
BTW simson,
The link to your bows above are some of my favorite bows, I'm trying to model the style after them. They are just awesome little bows and the reason I wanted to build one.
-
Here are a few picks of the tiller.
I cut the tree sometime in early spring, before the buds started to open. So it started as a hunk of tree about 4" diameter. I obviously could not use the outer ring for a flat bow, so the bow was made from wood near the center of the log. I made a little mistake when I was roughing it out, I basically roughed it out in a propeller twist. The twist wasnt to bad, just slightly, I didnt even notice until I was about half way through tillering which really showed the twisting action. Luckily I still had enough thickness to somewhat correct the problem. The handle is a little large, around 5.5"long (lol second time I made this mistake)... and possibly a little stiff(I thought it would be a bend through handle, but that didnt happen). The fades are not perfect, probably a little on the stiff side. The only other challenge I ran into while tillering (on the right limb)were the knots in the wood. Between the knots mid limb and the stiff fade, I had a bit of an issue and a slight hinge that developed at one point right between the end of the fades and the first knot(which I believe it what created the crack).
A few big things I learned with this bow, first it is super important to start the tillering process with even limbs, taking good measurements was important on this build. Also I cant say enough good things about a tillering jig, I feel like I have a pretty good eye for getting an even bend, but the jig doesnt lie or play tricks. Between the jig and measuring the limbs from the ground on the tillering tree, it helped locate the hinge developing that I couldnt see.
So thats a short summary of the build so far, I will keep posting my progress as I finish.
Specs,
Species: Not sure(I cut in the winter) but I'm pretty sure it is a maple or elm.
length ntn: 44"
braceheight: 5“
drawlength: 22”
drawweight: 40 lbs
w/d at handle: 1-5/16" by 5/8"
w/d at fade: 2-1/16" by 5/16"
w/d at midlimb: 2-1/16" by 1/4"
w/d at tip: 1" by 1/4"
-
Few more picks of the progress
First one is the crack that has formed on the back(on the right limb in the tillering pics)
Second one is the back
Third one is the belly
-
The plan at the moment is to call it good on tillering and put a silk back on the bow. It might be wishful thinking that I can save this, but I'm going to give it a shot and see how long it lasts. The bow will be for a 12yr old kid to grow into, so I figure it should last a while : )
-
I had a splinter raise up on the back of my bow like that. I thought it was done for like you but that was shortly after I got it braced, Not nearly as far as you got. I backed it with paper and it held up and I finished tillering it. Your bow might still live. Back it and you should be good.
-
Thanks for the encouragement gfugal, I'm feeling a little un sure how long it will last. I really hope all the work finishing isnt for nothing.
I got the bow backed today with black linen rayon blend material with TBIII. I dont know if I like the fabric look, I'm really considering painting over it.... I prefer the natural wood look, I'm wishing I would have just wrapped the area with string and super glue. But Oh well, learned a new skill and the backing appears to be in good shape. I just need to dream up a good design for finishing it.
-
Sorry about the split! The issue is the wood I think. If it is maple, it will probably be unable to handle the compression of a short bow. You may even want to consider getting a wood that is good in compression, flattening the belly and laminating it on there. That with a backing material will take care of any issues it is having, but the amount of work will essentially be like starting from scratch....so... I'd soak it with superglue, bind the area tightly with some nylon thread or sinew and shoot it like it doesn't have any problems. If the binding throws off your balance, make a mirror binding on the opposite limb. It'll make it safe, looks nice and ought to hold it together just fine.
-
The bending on the f/d looks very nice!
But to be honest I cannot see those pics when bows are drawn that extreme and sticking on a tree for long time till the pic is done. It makes way more sense to to f/d pics with a arrow on and drawn by hand. And hold the fulldraw only a short time, make a couple of pics and sort the best out for your post.
Looking at the last f/d pic, I would say you are asking a lot for an unbacked little stick!
-
@Simson,
Lol no kidding I made it real quick... and only drew it back to 21" instead of 22".... But I still noticed the limbs got a little weak after that, they dropped 10lbs. I was very disappointed and it freaked me out, but the full 40# draw weight came back the next day after the limbs had a chance to relax. Question for you, the fur at the knocks on your bow, does it help with sound when you shoot the bow?
@Limbit,
I agree, laminating seems like a lot of work, and not something I have had success with in the past when doing a handle. I ended up backing the bow a few days ago with Linen/Rayon cloth and TBIII. I almost tried binding with thread, but the other night on the tiller tree it made a few cracking sounds out of the blue, so I went ahead and backed it instead.
Just an update in general; got lucky and got a squirrel today and skinned it out, I plan to use it for the fluff around the handle, and maybe at each knock. I also have some leather to use for the handle. I will post up pics as I make more progress.