Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: stuckinthemud on October 06, 2015, 08:12:55 am
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Hi All,
I don't know where to post this so if a moderator wants to move the post that's fine by me. OK, so when, one day, I produce a bow that is of a professional standard and I want to sell it, how will I know what to sell it for? Please, I do not want the 'how much is your time worth', or 'add a premium if you are a reputable maker' or any of the other how long is a piece of string platitudes. I have been a wood-worker for long enough to have heard all those answers that ultimatley are meaningless. A yew longbow of a good quality and a draw-weight of, say 50# will have a ball-park price it generally sells for; a pyramid selfbow in osage would also have a price they are generally sold for but while I can find a price for the longbow, I cant find prices for the less main-stream offerings - like a character short-bow, or a hazel flat-bow, for instance. So what are the different types of bow generally worth, assuming the quality is of a professional level but sold privately, i.e. without the mark-up a shop must add?
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It's only worth what the buyer is willing to spend on it. I've seen bows by big name guys that sell for over $1,000 and I wouldn't give you a nickel for em. I think value is based on the maker and the reputation. And plenty of times reputation supersedes the quality. And on the other hand there's a lot of skills guys that have a hard time getting minimum price.
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A high quality, well built, and VERY well finished osage self bow will go for 400-600. Any more from anybody and your getting robbed. I've seen a lot of junkers go for $150-200. I've also seen wayyyy too many junkers go for $1200. But, if some fool wants to give me $1200 for any bow, I'll gladly build it.
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+1's @girlypearly and st pauly boy :laugh:
I think your getting waaaaay ahead of yourself and shouldnt even be worrying/thinking about it.
Go make over a 100 bows,and by then you wont have to ask this question. I see way too many trying to sell after a year or so of doing this and have no business selling them imho. How do you know you can make durable bows that last years when you've only made a couple dozen in a year or two and have no clue if theyll last or not?
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I agree with Chris, for a base price (extras are extra,) but I have found this to be one of the more difficult things to get folks to agree on. Your biggest issue will be finding the right market. Your local crowd may not be willing to pay $200 while the same bow may be worth $600 in a different area.
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Do what most other businesses do. Weigh up the costs of producing said item. Look at what the competition is charging and then decide upon what margin you want to remain competitive. Pretty simple really. IF you are too expensive or not depends on your brand, costs and what everyone else charges.
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Unless you make better bows than Marc St Louis, don't charge more than he does. ;)
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Wont work Pat. I shot, handled and looked at a $1200 bow from a well know bowyer and it seriously looked like a 3rd grade class art project. Guys are lined up to buy them, why is beyond me. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
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I know I am waaay ahead of myself which is why I started the post the way I did - one day, far from now, I will make a bow to a professional standard - but this topic is the elephant in my house - I get to learn a new skill while avoiding The List on the understanding that one day there might be a return on the investment of the time spent learning the skill. Knowing what a base price might be would be useful, no? Finding out what that base price is is really not straightforward. I do not want to know what specific bowyers charge for specific products as I know there are many variables, just a ball-park figure, so that when my other half huffs 'messing about with bows again?!' I can at least defend why I am not painting the spare room!.
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Enjoy the process and you are making more than money. With the number of people who build bows, the market is flooded. I'm sure you could make a living at it, but it wouldn't be worth the risk to me. I just make them to get better at making them.
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so that when my other half huffs 'messing about with bows again?!' I can at least defend why I am not painting the spare room!.
Now that! is FUnny! lol thanks for the laugh. i'll use this too!
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HAHA, The same thing came out of my mouth last night. My wife asked what I had to do last night. I said "take the trash to the road and some other stuff". She said "What other stuff" I could only smile. I "Had" to work on reducing some staves!
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Sounds like yall need to get a better understanding with you better half. ;) :)Miss Joanie just says he could be doing a lot worse things. ;) Like was said 4 to 6 hundred is about the going price if you are building a good durable bow from what I have seen. :) Some get more and some less depending on who's building it. :) The name means a lot to some and I will say I have seen some well know names that the bows didn't look like much to me but have also seen others that are beautiful/sleek works of art and very nice shooters. :)
Pappy
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I agree with Pappy, the name doesn't really mean much about the quality of a bow but it does help to fetch a bigger price tag. Because I have written in the traditional bowyers bibles and been around for a while and been vocal I have established a little bit of a name. I don't have any delusions about myself. I have never been a great craftsman, I have never had much interest in that aspect of bow building. I like to experiment and look for tecniques that might help the performance of the bow. If I am lucky enough to stumble across something worthwhile and I pass that on then it is no longer a unique skill set. Most all of us have passed on everything we have leaned building bows so we have lots of good bow builders out there right now. The profile of the bow will usually tell the story assuming the bow is ballanced and lined up properly.
I believe a well made bow should fetch a good hourly rate based on how long it should take to build a quality bow not how long it does take. If you say it should take 12 hours to make a nice well finsihed bow and a fair hourly rate is 40.00 per hour than about $500.00 would not be a high price. Out of that $40.00 you figure you have expenses that lower it down considerably. I also believe that if a bow builder has established himself as a bowyer who sells very high quality bows he should be able to ask a premium price especially if he has a somewhat unique style.
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every bow I make is priceless !!!!!
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Just paint the spare room, it's a quicker road to peace ;) ;)
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Just paint the spare room, it's a quicker road to peace ;) ;)
My way of life is just do what she says. it is simpler than fighting about not doing it, and generally faster.
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Never sold or bought a bow, ...but a little internet research should answer your questions fairly easily. Find someone that is doing basically what you want/hope to do one day and check out what they are charging.
OneBow
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I've never tried to sell a bow, but people ask me from time to time and I've sold about 9 or 10 bows.
I ask for 300-500, and I always include a matched set of arrows.
Like pearly I've handled some well known bowyers bows priced around 1000 and they were nothing special. Nice finish, but I could just feel the taper was off
If your getting into bow building with the idea that you'll eventually make money, well, your in for a rude awakening!
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If that's Canadian money, your alright goat. If not, you should get no less than $500 USD for any of your bows, without arrows.
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Well 500 CAD is 380$ USD. I've only been makin bows for not even 2 years, so I still consider myself a noob. Like Blackhawk stated, none of my bows are over 2 years old so haven't gone through the test of time. Most people shooting my bows are friends, and I have a decent day job some no pressure to try a recoup costs in bow building. It's an obsessive hobby, and more than anything it's therapy for me. My wife fully understands, never busts my balls for spending most my spare time in the shop, and some of you have seen, makes awesome bows herself. I sometimes consider making some polished yew longbows or warbows to sell, 1000$ for a bow? Sure why not
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Enjoy the process and you are making more than money.
A bit of good advice I wish I had heard before I ruined a few good hobbies, by trying to turn them into money makers. Enjoy what you do, give a way a few, put a few out on consignment. You will know when it is time to quit your day job.
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I always enjoy what I do, if it's not fun it's not worth doing and certainly won't be done well. The question was posed not to turn bow-building into a day-job but once I build all I need I cannot mentally bring myself to build anymore -what would I do with them? There is a limit to how many I can gift, or trade, so then what? I certainly don't want to turn bow-making into a job; experience suggests that once something fun becomes work then its not so much fun anymore but making a few fun-notes out of the hobby beats hanging 125 bows on a shelf............... :)
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but this topic is the elephant in my house - I get to learn a new skill while avoiding The List on the understanding that one day there might be a return on the investment of the time spent
sorry if there was too much presumption in my response. careers/money can be big elephants for many houseolds.
Charity contributions for raffles and benefits may let you write off a few.
consider diversifying your hobby somehow.....new directions......specializing....
We have never met so these suggestions are, of course, presumptuous.
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Good advice above. If you want to know what your bows are worth, keep track of the hours and materials cost for your first fifty bows. Decide what your time is worth and add it all up.......plus your overhead. You may be shocked.
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I always enjoy what I do, if it's not fun it's not worth doing and certainly won't be done well. The question was posed not to turn bow-building into a day-job but once I build all I need I cannot mentally bring myself to build anymore -what would I do with them? There is a limit to how many I can gift, or trade, so then what? I certainly don't want to turn bow-making into a job; experience suggests that once something fun becomes work then its not so much fun anymore but making a few fun-notes out of the hobby beats hanging 125 bows on a shelf............... :)
Now your talking my language. I can tell you for certain you will know when and for how much. Step one: Give away a few dozen, swap a dozen, donate a dozen, keep a few dozen and see how you feel. If this same question still lingers in your mind? Repeat step one.
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^^ it's remarkable how closely my journey over the last dozen years resembles this recipe.
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If you want to know how much to charge for a bow work out how much the materials are, labour, tools machinery, general insurance(fire, theft etc), rental/ workshop space, electricity, council rates for running a business, advertising, miscellaneous overheads, paperwork, taxes.
Sure there are guys selling bows but I don't think there are many people relying on it for a full time income as they would go out of business in a heartbeat. Their business model just doesn't add up, wouldn't even allow them to break even, let alone make a profit. Most guys are using their regular job(or are retired) to subsidise their bowmaking. This results in people being accustomed to unfeasibly low priced bows, with great finishes, great performance and top materials. Totally unsustainable.
Mix this in with a lot of very low level bowyers flogging bows on ebay for little more than the price of materials(the occasional one is actually a very talented bowyer, but still insists on undercharging just to get a bit of cash in the hand right now), the general person gets the idea that a bow should be cheap, and is not worth much money.
The $400-600 for a well made osage bow has been the same for the last 19 years that I have been involved in the craft. Back then a full length osage stave(seasoned but with bark on) retailed for $ 65-$120, then add shipping. Now 20 odd years on, with ebay you can get an osage bowstave, with a lot of work already done, taken down to one growth ring, for $20-$60.
The very nature of making wood bows, at the top end of the spectrum means that so much skill and time is in the tillering, quality of materials. They are factors that are not suited well to methods of mass production, and high volume turnover in sales with a small margin for profit( how most manufacturers plan).
There is no shortage of talented bowyers. If I wasn't a bowyer myself I would have no hesitation in buying a bow off them(I actually do occasionally, either because of admiration of their individual talent, or just to see how my own work stacks up). I have also observed that many talented bowyers that try to make a go of it professionally stop making bows for sale after a year or two.
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My day job does in fact subsidise my hobby - I do, occasionally, find the chance to make my way with my tools, albeit as artist in residence, or instructor, it is the one big advantage of working to a University calendar - but the situation where skilled artisans sell their work at a huge loss means that the normal formula of time+overheads=costs is a nonsense - a lovespoon, hand carved, takes between 4 and 150 hours to make but competes with factories, automated cnc-carving machines, and retirees meaning its retail price is a joke - I once calculated that my commission rate is a maximum of £1 per hour - competing would mean tooling up in the same way as the competition, not somewhere I want to go. Because of this, I primarily make lovespoons as gifts or as technical challenges: so that the value is in the improvement to my skill, not the financial reward. I am not bitter about this, it is the way of the things, but is also why knowing what the base price of units is always one of the questions I feel the need to ask, its all about establishing the ground-rules.
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I charge according to how they shoot . A dog is a dog I don't care what color you paint it. $500-600 is what I get. Some Bowyers are better and mine are better than others. I don't make money at it though. I would have to charge $1000 to make it profitable. I just hope to make enough to pay for the hobby that it is. Arvin
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I don't sell bows anymore but never tried to make a killing on one. I started out selling them for $150, as my skills improved I raised my price to $300 and never went higher. If the buyer wanted snake skins I charged the actual cost of the skins and $50 to put then on.
I bet there are a bunch of folk who would jump on one of my $300 bows now if I sold them.
I only made them when I felt like it, topping out at about 15 bows a year in my heyday. I was turning down up to a dozen people a month when I was selling them. I refused to keep a backlog which would have turned my hobby into a job.
Another thing; for every bow I sold I gave away two, always to close friends and special people who I felt deserved some sort of recognition for going above and beyond in whatever field they were in be it in support of archery, the Catch-a-Dream Foundation or service to our country.
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I hear a faint tooting sound on this thread now. lol :laugh:
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I thought I heard it too,, but my hearing is bad,, :)
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Easy Pat. Funny thing about high horses... :-[.
;)
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I raised a lot of money for worthy causes buy donating my bows. I donated at least one or two a year to an auction to raise money for the Alabama Children's Hospital put on by the ASTB, I lost track of how many I donated, I did it for years. A bunch went to raise money for the Catch a Dream Foundation at shoots over in Mississippi.
I am proud of what I accomplished, if that is horn tooting to you guys, so be it.
The one I am most proud of was making one for Gil Magallanes. A badly wounded Special Forces vet who with one other guy were the only survivors of a horrible friendly fire accident when A 5K bunker buster bomb was dropped on their position in Afghanistan by mistake. Most of these guys in the picture are dead,. Gil is the guy behind Hamid Karsi.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/special%20bows/Gilsteam.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/special%20bows/Gilsteam.jpg.html)
Here is Gil with his bow. His injuries are too many to mention, he is legally blind, can see in patches and can outshoot most selfbow shooters in spite of his condition.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/tournament%20pics/DSC00297.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/tournament%20pics/DSC00297.jpg.html)
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Gil was a good friend when I lived in Tenn,, he was a great shot,,,glad he is doing well,, please say hello to him next time you see him,,B
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Sometimes a little horn toot serves to set a good example. I never have a problem with setting a good example.
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Sure, as long as it's on a thread along those lines. Guys just want to know what a bow is worth not that they should feel inadequate if they're not giving away more than they sell and underselling them as well.
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Easy Pat. Funny thing about high horses... :-[.
;)
I never ride anything bigger than a large pony. ;)
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I think this is turning into a sewing circle. >:D Too much crap getting tossed around, leave that to the bow trade thread! >:D
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I think this is turning into a sewing circle. >:D Too much crap getting tossed around, leave that to the bow trade thread! >:D
I don't know what that means, so I guess I'll take your word as the sewing circle expert .... Lol
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Good advice above. If you want to know what your bows are worth, keep track of the hours and materials cost for your first fifty bows. Decide what your time is worth and add it all up.......plus your overhead. You may be shocked.
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Good advice above. If you want to know what your bows are worth, keep track of the hours and materials cost for your first fifty bows. Decide what your time is worth and add it all up.......plus your overhead. You may be shocked.
Yup, and then good luck finding someone willing to pay that price for a wooden bow when you can buy a fiberglass takedown for 100 bucks + free shipping.
Edit: I think as a business model your doomed trying to sell wooden bows you make yourself, mostly because of the nature of this little addiction. You put so much into the bow you make, it becomes personal, you become attached. It is priceless, to you anyway. That's no way to run a business. Manufacturers make and sell products, products that usually are made in bulk, usually as efficiently as possible, for usually as little cost as possible, in order to create a product that can be priced competitively and still marked up and turn a profit. If you wanna manufacture a higher end product, and charge a higher price, you still need to find an efficient way produce enough of these products to get your return on investment. One man just doesn't make wooden bows by the skid. The only guy I know of doing that is Jim from Ruddersbows, but he has a warehouse and a staff helping him. Forgive me if this is getting a little off topic.
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I bet there are a bunch of folk who would jump on one of my $300 bows now if I sold them.
If I had 300 dollars I would! ;D Don't you sell yew staves too? I'd love to pick me up one of those too sometime..
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Put a price on the bow what you think it's worth. If it doesn't sell and you keep lowering the price until you do, ought to give you an idea what someone would pay for one of your bows.
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Thanks guys, back on track. ;) :) and by the way Brad, Gil is still a good shot and great guy. ;)
Pappy
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I often wondered why the hell some guys pay 700 bucks for a f/g bow, made within 6 or 7 hours and otherwise do not want to pay more than 300 for a well made selfbow with 30 hours of work in it.
>:D >:D >:D
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Let's face it, most of us would be making bows with or without customers.
The odd one I sell is just icing on the cake. Some bowyers I highly respect
sell their bows online for less than 400$, and to me that's an honest price.
Even John Strunks bows were around this mark.
I've seen some wood bows, mostly yew, go for over 900$ online, and to me that's a little high.
Don't people know that stuff grows on trees??? ;)
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I would rather see many bowyers selling unfinished but quite shootable bows below $100. As soon as their customers realize that they can scrape all wood bows to their taste, they would be hooked.
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the wood bows do not have the wide audience or appreciation that the fiberglass bows get,, whatever the reasons,, it is complicated,, but the economy and peoples perception determine what they will pay,, not what the bowyer thinks they should pay in most cases,, I wouldnt pay much for a fiberglass bow cause I dont want to shoot one,, but I am not representative of that markets buyer,, if I was going to buy a wood bow,, each one is a unique work of art that is functional, I would pay the price the bowyer wanted to get the bow I wanted,, 50 hours times 50 per hour for a highly skilled craft, ,would be 2500,,, reasonable???
I think so,, but most people dont appreciate the skill and time it takes to make a really great beautiful bow,, :)
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I guess each bowyer will find different styles easier or harder to build. I find the English Longbows to be the hardest, just because they have such a long bending area and so much area that needs to be worked. I don't think $900.00 for a well tillered war bow from a yew stave would be a high price at all. We have a guy here in So cal who is getting about $1200.00 for a war bow, he does a nice job on them and I imagine he spends some time doing it.