Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: PAHunter on March 07, 2012, 07:14:36 pm
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I am a good compound bow shooter and I consider my compound form to be quite good. I’m now shooting traditional bows for the first time and have a lot of trouble finding form that sound and accurate. A big question of mine is good anchor position and how it relates to overall form and accuracy. Here are notes and pics from my practice today with an elm I made and am breaking in.
Position 1: One finger over 2 under. Middle finger comes back past my mouth.
Pros: Feels fantastic and closest to my compound form. From what I can see this is a common position.
Cons: My aim point at 20 yards is 4-5 feet low and a foot right! That’s crazy! I’m very inaccurate when aiming so far below my target.
(http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small63747248.JPG)
Position 2: 3 fingers under. Middle finger comes back past my mouth.
Pros: Feels almost as good as position 1.
Cons: Same as pos 1 but my aim point is a foot or two higher. Still way too low to be very accurate.
(http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small64002099.JPG)
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx5pJzh_FZ0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx5pJzh_FZ0)
Position 3: 3 fingers under. I bring the arrow to right below my eye; and my eye toward the arrow a bit. I kind of think of it as a dart
Pros: This was instantly the most accurate position by far. I was shooting point on at 12 and about a foot low at 20. 10-20 is my hunting distance so this is perfect.
Cons: It feels horrible. I fell as though I’m all scrunched up. It is way off of my compound form.
(http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small47661421.JPG)
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ABmteIRup8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ABmteIRup8)
Ugh!! Your advice is greatly welcome and needed! Thanks!
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Pick the position you feel most comfortable with and can consistently his without any one brain cell having to talk to another. AND QUIT AIMING!!!
I know it sounds counter-intuitive. Just spend your time perfecting the smooth nocking of an arrow, effortless draw to anchor point, hesitate a half-heartbeat, and exhale as the arrow slips from your fingers. Keep staring at the center of the target with a "head of a pin" focus and let the arrows go where ever they bloody well feel like going. Eventually they will figure out where you want them to fly and where you look they will go.
Getting into the zen of perfect form and effortless release will allow your subconscious to do all the alignment to getting in the kill zone. My natural point of impact with a new bow is low and left about 4 inches off center. A few dozen shots with the bow concentrating on getting perfect form and I start grouping around the center of the target.
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DON'T THINK!!Just concentrate,draw anchor,focus and release...If you try to think or "aim" you will miss
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I practice the way JW describes, but if you're trying to "aim", you're going to be shooting low probably all the way out to about 60 or 70 yards, depending on the bow. Self bows don't have the near-flat trajectory of those 300+ fps wheelie bows. They really lob 'em out ;D
I'd say your anchor point looks perfect myself.
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wow. Well that's not what I expected... Realize you guys are telling the overly analytical Dell computer guy not to think right? :) I'm not good at that. seriously. haha But I will try. I'll go shoot another 100 arrows and consentrate on my aim point. Well, this should be interesting! Thanks for the advice!!!
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I use the split finger ,middle finger corner of my mouth.I also want the arrow right at the top of my hand,I use a shelf but the arrow is right over my hand,not set hight like on a rest. I pick a spot swing arm up,set draw to anchor and shoot, It is kind of like pointing your finger at closer range,shoot like this for a while and you will train your eye/brain where to point. Start close 10 yards or so. Some use point of aim,tip or down the tube and it does work well with practice but really hard on selfbows to draw and hold that long. :)
Pappy
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THINKING? What the hell...aiming ? Gotta Be kidding. Shoot another hundred? my, my, my.
Work your way through your form in controlled practice with reasonable attention and thought.
But when you actually start on that next 1000,000 arrows let it go to lizard brain and muscle memory.
Trust your brain to act without your conscious direction. It ain't like you are being graded.Just shoot that thang.
Lane
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I gap too, and shoot 3 under with my middle finger anchored to my eye tooth and my index finger in the ridge at my gum line. Fairly close to your "position 2". Looks like you're shooting an aluminum arrow there, is it spine matched to your bow? Self bows typically have a larger handle the arrow needs to wrap around, so you'll typically shoot a lower spined arrow. That could be the reason you're having to adjust horizontally for aiming.
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@Pappy thanks Pappy! I'm anxious to try this instinctive shooting method. It's like the martial arts, for years I traind to punch and kick at the right time. But now I've been doing it for 25 years and I just punch when it's time to punch and kick when it's time to kick. reaching this kind of simplicity in technique is what we call mastering the art.
@Lane that sounds like a solid plan! I am a bit of a perfectionist and I hate wounding animals. I pass up shots all the time becuase there are not "good enough". I just want to know I can put it where it counts come hunting season. 1000,000, not a problem! I LOVE shooting and have a lifetime to do it!
@Jonathan I am shooting aluminum arrows spined for 40-45 and my bow is 47ish. I think I may end up doing basically that position but with middle finger in corner of my mouth so that my hand is low enough to get my thumb under my big jaw bone (it's really big :laugh:). This elm I'm shooting in the vid is almost exactly center shot, which should help. I'm really hoping this instinctive thing works for me because the gap is just too large, again perhaps because of my big head. I can't be aiming 4 feet below the deer, thats crazy. :) Though my mathmtical brain would be more comfortable with gap initially 4 sure. thanks much!!
@Cameroo: thanks much man. 65 yards?! wow
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There is a lot of good info here PA. Think of instictive shooting like throwing a ball. You don't aim your throwing arm, you look @ the target and your mind takes over and you hit the target. Instictive shooting comes from hours of shooting. It becomes second nature. No need to get too serious now, hunting season is over, have fun and like you said, you love to shoot, so go do it.
Some guys stand 5-10 yards back from the target, close their eyes and draw working more on form than accuracy. I use three under on short bows to spare my fingers the pintch, but my new self bow didn't have a nock stop on it for awhile and I have been shooting split finger again w/ it.
Good luck and have fun, dpgratz
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I am by no means the best out there but I like to try to hold my bow a bit on a angle when I shoot. I have never had any luck shooting my bow vertically. ( I can not tell but it looks that way in the pic). I like one up two down. Also unlike compound shooting I do not hold my anchor point. As soon as i hit it ,I release. Like everyone else said, start at 5 yards and do not move back until you master it. Also the more bows you make the more you realize everyone is different! I think most of the reason I am not a good shot is I never stay with one, always looking to shoot my next one!
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I second what JW said... Do not compare shooting a self bow to shooting a compound.... They are completely different! It sounds like your accuracy woes are caused by focusing on he tip of your arrow... don't! Focus on your target only, then release.. And practice, practice, practice!
Jon
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I shot compound bows about twenty years ago, but I never used a bow sight or peep tubes, pins or any of that stuff, so it made my transition much easier. That said, i still have to say that shooting a long bow is a much different activity.... Someone mentioned canting the bow a little.... I started shooting much straighter after I started canting the bow. I shoot one over and two under and knock point is my thumb knuckle under my cheekbone, which puts my middle finger close to the corner of my mouth. Everyone has a different take on what it takes to put an arrow on target. For me, it has to be trying to become a consistent machine that does the same thing everytime. Like a golfer with a grooved swing or big league pitcher's wind up and throw. Add in the variables that hunting throws at you and a complicated routine just won't get it. After a few thousand million hundred shots.... muscle memory will take over the draw and release of an arrow. Accuracy is what I have to concentrate on. If you have spent much time shooting a rifle or pistol with iron sights, you learn that you focus on the front sight. You see it clearly. Your target somewhat hazy. Your rear sight hazy. But that front sight is clear as a bell... You can only see one part of your sight picture absolutely clear. Take that info to a longbow..... This is my way of doing it and it works for me... See the target, focus on the absolute smallest part of what you want to hit and try to burn a hole in it with your eyes. When I draw, there is a somewhat blurry vision of the arrow coming back to full draw and pointing at my target. Both eyes are open. See target clear. My bow is canted enough and my anchor is below my eye enough that I see the arrow come back and go forward on the release... The arrow is blurry... like the rear sight of pistol. I think of my arrow as riding on a kind of rail between my eyes and the target.... The rythym is what I strive for... a half a second at full draw and will it to the bullseye with a good smooth release.... If one misses... I tell myself it was a freak accident, a bad release, or some other deviation from what I usually do. It is a bow and not a laser guided space age weapon. I can group in a place as big as my hand out to about 25 yards - and I have huge hands... lol. straight enough for hunting though. Sorry to ramble, but I hope this helps.
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It is a bow and not a laser guided space age weapon. I can group in a place as big as my hand out to about 25 yards - and I have huge hands... lol. straight enough for hunting though.
That's something the spot shooters have the hardest time wrapping their heads around. If you can perforate a paper plate on a hay bale all day long from every distance and angle that your mind can imagine, you are plenty good enough to hunt. I got friends that strive for 1 hole at 100 yds with their rifles, when I want to hit something the size of an orange at the same range with my rifle. The difference when shooting deer at 100 yds is dead vs dead. I practice shooting from al kinds of kneeling positions, standing up and leaning against a tree, shooting uphill and down, thru bushes, everything but hanging from my ankles, while the spot shooters practice from a bench. I'll be field dressing my deer while they are still looking for a bench to shoot from!!
Guns and bows are apples and oranges. But the philosophy between stick bows and wheel bows carries over. While you are practicing your archery, aim for the smallest possible grouping of arrows you can get, but just before hunting season shoot paper plates and celebrate everything that hits paper!
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Thanks everyone! All of your advice is helping tremendously! I went stump shooting with Hickory Bill and did better than I thought I would (better than ever before) while trying instinctive shooting. For now I'm going 3 fingers under and thumb knuckle under my chin because that aligns the arrow with my eye best and I shoot straight. From there I just need to get the distance right.
hrhodes, really summed up my goal of getting consistent. That is key at so many sports (I golfed as well). It matters more that you are consistent than if you have textbook form. I want a solid and comfortable shooting position that I can replicate. Then it should just be a matter of practice and paitence. Bill suggested only practing with my hunting bow for a few months before season, so I don't screw myself up shooting several different bows. That sounds like good advice to me as well.
I'll let you guys know how my arrows are flying after a few practice sessions. Thanks again for your suggestions, they are much appreciated!
Rob
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Once you get comfortable shooting, work on getting some arrows matched to that bow. It makes a world of difference. and as others pointed out, self bows are generally touchier to arrow spine. As for anchor, do what feels most comfortable, but it sounds as though you still want to get that arrow up near your eye, which tempts the aiming down the arrow syndrome. When you golf, do you aim? When you shoot a basketball, do you aim? When you move your mouse, do you aim? The answer is no. You just look where you want it to go. Practice does the rest.
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I agree with CMB about getting your arrows properly spined to match your bow. Throw in a proper brace height and string nock position and you are well on your way. I was seeking something simpler to tune when I went traditional but, actually there are some fundamentals that can't be overlooked. I was surfing the web a while back and came across a fantastic article on bow tuning which I think you might find useful... I know I did. OL Adcock's Custom Bows website and click on "bow tuning". There is a lot of good info there.