Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bjrogg on January 20, 2017, 12:54:25 pm
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Yesterday I cleaned up the back of a Elm stave Pnewton gifted me this summer. It worked great. The power washer has a burner to heat the water but I did try it with cool and it did work but slower. This morning I got out 18 HHB staves that I harvested feb 27, 2016. They all had the bark on and I did zero prep work. I peeled the bark and cambium off perfectly exposing a pristine 1st ring. I took me just over 2 hours to do 18 staves and they are clean. I really don't think the wood took on any real amount of water they already feel dry. I know it's not primitive but a very effective way to get a clean back on winter harvested HHB.
Bjrogg
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Cool who'd of thunk it
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I never would have expected it to work that well. That's aweskme! It looks like a worth while method.
Kyle
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Could you post a picture of the power washer?
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Thanks Dbar, I guess somebody that's not very good at taking it off any other way.lol.
Thanks Kyle, I thought it might work, but not nearly as good as it does. The Elm I took Bark was from with draw knife, not sure if I'd of had to. I got a hickory I might give a wirl.
Bjrogg
I'll get one for you DC
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Im going to bring a stave to work next week but the power washer here is set really high , we use it to wash heavy equipment its set just shy of taking paint off and water is scalding hot do you think thats to much ? Mr Bjrogg
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You just saved me hours of work thank you bjrogg
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My dad takes the bark of burls for bowl carving with a power washer. Works great for getting in all the nooks and crannies.
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I do the same things! Works really well on juniper
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DC here a picture of power washer. It's a pretty good power washer we use it a lot for cleaning up our equipment. I think a smaller one would probably work.
Stick Bender this is just like your work one I'd say. I can't see where it did any damage to wood it looks perfect. It seemed good on HHB and Elm not sure of other types. I just did this so if your thinking of trying it might not want to experiment with your favorite stave first. If you do let me know how it works
MulchMaker glad to help but even more exciting to me is the condition of the back.
Bjrogg
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My mind is blown. Definitely adopting this method!! Thank you for sharing.
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Thanks Bryce, Thanks Pat M glad to here someone else has tried it. If anyone has had any bad results please let me know. I just went all in on the bunch of staves.
Your very welcome make-n-break
Bjrogg
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My local car wash place isn't gonna like me.....
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My local car wash place isn't gonna like me.....
just take lots of quarters lol. Was wondering when someone was going to say that
Actually if your took Bark off it probably save quarters and mess.
Bjrogg
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Ahh man, if I buy a power washer I can see my honeydo list stretching. And that's all I need is one more of those dern noisy things in the neighbourhood. Some guys get addicted to them. I saw one guy spraying one spot on his chimney for over an hour.
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Thanks for posting this BJ. I'm going to try this out sometime.
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Believe me D.C. I'm no fan of power washing or making a longer honey do list.
Glad to share it Osage hope it works good for you.
Bjrogg
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My local car wash place isn't gonna like me.....
just take lots of quarters lol. Was wondering when someone was going to say that
Actually if your took Bark off it probably save quarters and mess.
Bjrogg
Lol good idea... This is going to be awesome for cleaning out all the little nooks and crannies : )
I love the way the surface of the wood looks in you pics, that would make for a pretty awesome bow back!
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Very cool, thanks for posting bj
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That is a great tip. I just got a power washer for Christmas and I have some wither cut stave to clean up. Thanks for posting this.
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Thanks for the tip. I use one all the time to de flesh animal skins, never thought to use it on a stave
steve
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Good post bjrogg.Love the look of those backs.
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Pretty sure you started a new trend here that will become a staple of bow making. Good job. Be interesting to find out how many different woods it works on. I hate removing bark from hickory more than anything.
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I need one now! :o
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bjrogg, the backs of your stave's look real good. Brillant idea 8). Bob
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Wow just got back from the movies with kids and grandkids. Thanks for all the replies, guess I'm not the only one that doesn't like trying to get winter bark and cambium off.lol. Most of all though I just really like how good the back looks. If there's anything wrong with them it's not visible to me.
Bjrogg
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I like!
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IMHO this is clearly much messier than programming a robot to do it. ;)
It's much easier to leave the bark on and bring the stave close to the finished front profile. Then it would take five minutes with a drawknife to remove bark.
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IMHO this is clearly much messier than programming a robot to do it. ;)
It's much easier to leave the bark on and bring the stave close to the finished front profile. Then it would take five minutes with a drawknife to remove bark.
I think I would have a hard time drawing my bow outline on the bark...
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I think I would have a hard time drawing my bow outline on the bark...
I just eyeball it. You can simply use a chalk or glue on a paper pattern.
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IMHO this is clearly much messier than programming a robot to do it. ;)
It's much easier to leave the bark on and bring the stave close to the finished front profile. Then it would take five minutes with a drawknife to remove bark.
Show us your pristine drawknifed backs with every ripple perfectly intact. You must have a special drawknife. ;)
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Show us your pristine drawknifed backs with every ripple perfectly intact. You must have a special drawknife. ;)
If I want such a thing, I just cut it during the growing season. Otherwise I simply leave the cambium on and wait for it to come off eventually. I basically never finish any bow once I made them shootable. Not even one after fifty shootable bows. Sorry.
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These guys probably want to finish bows they cut in the winter. ;)
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These guys probably want to finish bows they cut in the winter. ;)
I have no idea where most people would get the powerful enough power washer that can use hot water and where in their home they can use such a thing without making too much mess. Anyhow, there are many expert bowyers here who want to make marketable bows with reasonable effort. Nothing's wrong with that.
But most hobby people are better off just using hand tools. I enjoy making just bow blanks and "you-finish" bows, even if I might sell them eventually. Just my bias.
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lol. This is for the people who do and have a place known as "outside".
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Cool idea. I will be trying this out soon.
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Thanks again for all the replies guys.
spc I understand your concerns. The Elm stave I did was a very large stave. I first removed Bark with draw knife. I then took Cambium off as carefully as I could with draw knife. I did very slightly violate, scrap,scuff whatever a person wants to call it in about a dozen places. I really wish I would have thought of this first but I didn't. It literally took less than two minutes to power wash this stave perfectly clean with zero violations of any kind that I'm aware of, other than the ones I did with draw knife. The mess was way less than washing my pickup after driving our muddy gravel roads. I'm sure many people don't have high pressure washer with burner and others that wouldn't do this even if they did and I totally understand and respect that. When I first started harvesting HHB I didn't know the difference between winter and summer harvest. I had seen on you tube somewhere that you where suppose to harvest in winter so that's what I did. I have made several bows from these staves leaving some cambium on and knicking ring in places. I even used one of them for hunting this year and haven't had a problem with any of them. Anyone who uses summer harvested HHB soon realizes that this wood has many dips, bumps, ravines and ripples that make removing cambium a real challenge. I also like a perfectly clean back for laying out my bows. I like to follow the grain, it may not be totally necessary but I like the wiggles anyway. When I did the Elm I was concerned about powder post beetle holes and wanted a clean back before I continued. It was really out of nothing to lose that I tried this. Having said all this I'm not totally 100 percent sure I'm not doing something completely invisible to my eyes to this wood that could possibly effect it in a negative way. I was however with my draw knife. In all honesty I expected to get a lot of negative feedback that this isn't primitive and I understand that. It's not meant for those bowyers I respect their view point. This is for the ones who are sharing the same problems I am. I also would advise anyone trying this that so far it looks fantastic, but I haven't made a bow from one of these staves and possibly there could be a negative I haven't yet noticed. Thanks again for all replies + or -
Bjrogg
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bjrogg, 99.9% of self bows being made today are not primitive , unless you are using a sharp rock for a scraper and a stone axe to cut trees, Where is the line being drawn for primitive, stone tools, hand steel tools , chainsaws and power tools, aersol spray finishes. Don't worry about it just keep making bows ;D Just my .02 worth. Bob
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The way I see it bjrogg making wooden bows many times is an evoloution of problem solving 101 class.Seems your brain gets set into survival mode wanting to make a bow shootable.Being a farmer I'm sure you blended into this mode easily.Just another day at the office so to speak.Taking chances.Trying this and that to get the job done.Especially the undulating lumpy backs of ironwood.Might work great on black cherry too which can have the same type of back along with others I'm sure.More power to ya.In the future though there's nothing written in stone to harvest these staves in the winter.I like to pull the bark off my hickory when the sap is flowing myself.
I love the look of the backs of those kind of bows.It looks like they are just plucked right out of the tree.Just like my hickory.
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Innovative thinking bj. Thanks for sharing.
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Thanks Outback I wasn't going to let it bother me if I did get negative feedback and really surprisingly to me it been really positive.
Thanks Ed I do believe being a farmer almost my whole life has helped me in many of life battles. You learn to get along with what you have at the time wherever you are. You learn at a young age to cobble stuff together when you have to and fix it right when you can. I also lived in Detroit area went to electronics school for five years and learned many of life's lessons from that experience to. My dad said I'd could come back to farm but I had to do something else for a couple years first. I'm glad he did.
Thanks Pnewton and thanks for the Elm stave. Might not have ever tried this without it. Hopefully I'll get a bow made out of it.
Bjrogg
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Did you seal the entire back so it would not check or leave it to dry without sealing? Arvin
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Arvin I did seal the Elm the next day so far I didn't seal the HHB but was thinking I might do it today. I'm not sure if it's necessary since they have been harvested and stored inside climate controlled shop for 11 months. That was one question I had to. I might seal them but leave a couple bare just to see what happens. Was curious what others thought about this.
Bjrogg
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Seal those beauties up BJ. It's a good idea to seal a stave anytime you expose the backs. A coat or two of polyurethane is cheap insurance against losing a stave. I have worked osage cut in the early 90's and I still sealed the backs after I chased a ring.
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Thanks Osage it would be a shame to lose them now. I was planning on doing it yesterday but got sidetracked. Guess it must be a Sunday job. Probably gonna have some more skinning to do and a 4-H meeting traps to check could be a busy day.
Bjrogg
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If they were dry first I wouldn't worry about sealing them. Then you're just adding a layer of stuff that you might not want as your final finish. Be a shame to have pristine backs and then have to scrape off poly. That would be the end off all those swirls and ridges that you were trying to preserve in the first place.
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I just eyeball it. You can simply use a chalk or glue on a paper pattern.
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AWESOME! I did this just like that once, except I used pushpins to hold on a paper pattern while I band-sawed! I got the idea from those pump[kin carving patterns you see these days. I still usually remove the bark, though.
You got it right Pat. I usually remove elm and whatever bark that is stuck on pretty good by the shower method, scraping the wet bits off with dull tools is I have to like a butterknife. But, those close ups of the ropey grain on the BACKS of those HHB staves, especially are some of the most character I've ever seen on a back. Looks really cool, and I'd hate to lose that, myself.
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I have a power washer and tried it a few years ago on some firewood to see how it stripped the bark off. I have two settings on my washer, seems like I used the higher one (2500psi) and it would cut the wood like a knife leaving a splintery mess. I don't think I tried the low setting because it is pretty weak.
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Shellac would probably be a better option than polyurethane. If I had to choose between dealing with a sealer and drying cracks, I'd take the sealer.
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+1 about shellac.Anything will stick to it.In fact I've alcohol dyed the backs of hickory with like type backs shellaced then lightly sanded the high ridges off leaving a cool looking camoflauged back.Then put any type finish on it to seal it.
Shellac is all I ever use to seal backs and ends.Excellent success with it.Dries quick too.This time of year into the winter wood will dry rather slowly on its' own too.You should'nt end up with any drying checks at all on your staves.
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I meant more that already dried whitewood isn't prone to cracking if allowed to get externally wet and then dry again. Not soaked through mind you.
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Wsy good info here#!! I love this idea!!!
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Thanks Orrum, I stained a sealed backs. They look really nice but I haven't made a bow from one yet. I still don't see any damage just a bit of cambium threads here and there I missed
Bjrogg
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Bjrogg when you do wind up making A bow out of one of those staves if you remember could you mention it was one of the pressure washed staves? I'd like to see how it turns out.
Thanks -Zach
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Just a quick update. I got 2 bows shooting from that winter harvested HHB I removed Bark and cambium from with power washer. I can't tell difference between them and summer harvested HHB that cambium slips off of. Here some pictures. Just got them shooting nothing fancy but at least something to look at.
Bjrogg
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Great looking bows & squeaky clean to boot congrats !
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great looking bows BJ....
DBar
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Thanks Stick, thanks Dbar, They around 50@25. I think the one is gonna be for my daughter in law and other for my buddy.
Bjrogg
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Nice looking bows
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Looks great. How about a photo of front profile? Thank you.
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Scp, I'll try get one up soon. I'm finishing up the bows right now. Working on handles and tips.
Bjrogg
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That's a very nice looking pair of bows bjrogg.Whoever gets those should be happy for sure.I believe your getting the hang of this bow making.
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Thanks Ed, I'm improving but still have a lot to learn yet. That's ok though keeps it interesting.
Here's some pictures of one of the backs. It looks rougher than it is. I removed shellac with denatured alcohol and scoffed lightly with steel wool. I'll try to remember to post pictures when it's done
Bjrogg
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Pictures
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That's really nice.Love the look of that.Just like plucking it right out of the tree.
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That is very cool. I need to try this method soon
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That is awesome. Nothing is more American than finding new use for a power washer.
Heads up BTW, power washer is also the ultimate tool for FLESHING HIDES. No more scraping for hours.
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I wonder if a car wash might work... :)
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That is awesome. Nothing is more American than finding new use for a power washer.
Heads up BTW, power washer is also the ultimate tool for FLESHING HIDES. No more scraping for hours.
I hear ya.More than once I've used a power washer from a car wash to clean beef and buffalo hides that were hair on before lacing them into a frame.The hair smelled great...lol.I did'nt wax it though...lol.
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I wonder if a car wash might work... :)
I was wondering the same thing Bob, someone needs to try this out and report back to us
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Heads up BTW, power washer is also the ultimate tool for FLESHING HIDES. No more scraping for hours.
Little Ben I saw that on you tube. My brother and I did a couple cow and calf hides with power washer well over 30 years ago. Guess we didn't have YouTube then just some messy hides. Like Ed said cleaned them up good both hair and leather side.
Bjrogg
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Nice looking bows bj.
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Thanks Paul maybe one of these days I'll start working on that Elm stave you gave me. Wish I had tried the power washer on it right away. I did scrape a bit of the first ring although I'm sure it will still make a bow, maybe even two.
Bjrogg
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I wonder about other woods, like thick barked black walnut and hackberry. One could peel off the outer bark with a drawknife and knock the rest off with a power washer? Cant wait to try this.
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Your bow looks great, BJ.I wonder if I can knock the bark and cambium off some curly sticks I cut for walking sticks. I'mm going to give it a try with the bad @$$ one we have at work.
By the way, that's what the commercial gator hide places use to deflesh the hides down here.
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Whoa, how come I never saw the bows on here before? They look awesome. Slickest looking backs on HHB I've ever seen.
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Thanks Jeff, I updated it awhile back just to let people know that I finished 2 bows from the power washed staves. Yes I would say it was a complete success 😊
Bjrogg
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Sorry alcot and Eddie, didn't see you guys back a page.
alcot that's what I did with the Elm. I removed the thick bark and started to remove cambium but it was to wavy and I would have violated back. Figured nothing ventured nothing gain. The power washer peeled off the cambium so fast I thought I'd try it on my winter HHB.
Thanks Eddie, I don't see any reason it wouldn't work on your walking sticks and the more bad a$$ the washer the better especially if it can heat water. Ours you can bypass water from tip for less pressure but I just turn it all the way up.
Bjrogg
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Wow! Learn something new every day! What psi range are these that you're using? Thanks to everyone who posted. I have some pronghorn hides waiting for me to find the roundtuit and flesh them. Got to rehydrate them first, though. Are you guys stretching the hides first or just weighting them down. The first thought I had was hides flying all over😀👹😂! BJ, good idea for stripping staves, etc. I will be using it when I need to strip bark.
Hawkdancer
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Decided to give this's one a bump. Hope it helps some more people. I have made a bunch of bows from these staves with zero negative effects. Still not sure about all wood types but I wouldn't be afraid to try any. Might still want to experiment on scrap pieces first.
Bjrogg
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Just gotta do it like this
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I did two more staves today but I pissed off a few people, shoulda snapped a pic of the line up. Note to self dont pressure wash staves on a nice sunny afternoon at the only spray wash in town. bjrogg the staves I washed were cut in August and reduced to a rough board, stored in dry basement over the winter with my dehumidifier on all fall, winter and at present. They were dry enough before pressure wash, so now how long do you think I should wait before working them?
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Swamp Thang, that's a great way to prepare a back but it doesn't work on winter harvested staves from around here. The cambium is tight and won't slip.
Clewis, when I did mine with washer it didn't take more than two minutes a stave. They didn't take on much moisture if any. I guess you could monitor weight on them. Mine weren't roughed out either which may or may not make a difference.
Bjrogg
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I was only joking just the tree type
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Bjrogg, whats the psi on your washer? Ive been looking online at the smaller washers around 1800-2000 psi but I cant imagine they would work very well. Also Ive already looked around to rent one but no tool rentals here but Im going to try the next town over, see if that helps. The car wash takes a while and is pretty inefficient for the cost but For curiositys sake it turned out pretty good.
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Clewis, I'm not sure what the psi is on this washer. It's probably out of your price range to buy but if you could rent might work out good. It's a commercial power washer with hot water burner. We use it all the time and I can tell you your arm gets sore after using it for several hours from holding the wand. It's a Landa 4-2000. It has electric motor I see some have gas. I know my son bought one a few years back reconditioned for $1900. Another one of those necessary expenses around here. I'm really not sure what's available and what a person could get by with. I know if we didn't have this one for the farm I would be out of luck.
Bjrogg
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I decided to bump this thread again. Might help some new guys out.
Bjrogg
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Thanks, Bjrogg...Did you ever try hickory?
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Nsherve I haven't ever tried it on hickory. It seems to me someone may have replied that they did with good results, but that's just something in this old farts memory. It may or may not have happened. Might try reading through all the replies, it might be in there.
Bjrogg
I've seen absolutely no problems using this method. All the bows are still shooting.
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I'll go through it again...I may have just missed it
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Lol like I said it might not be there. Does seem to be in my memory though.
Bjrogg
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If it works w/ HHB I would assume it would work with hickory. Both have very small ridges just under the cambium that are easy to violate if you try to remove it w/ a draw knife or something. (learned that from PatM by the way)
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I know it’s been a few years since I posted this thread but I thought it might help some newbies. I’m still using this method very successfully. I know everyone doesn’t have access to a power washer and may not want to even if they did. But I love the way it cleans up a back.
Bjrogg
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Just to be clear on the method, do you hit the bark directly with the pressure washer or do you first roughly de-bark first with a drawknife? My wife has a painting business and she has a heavy duty pressure washer that she uses to prep wooden decks and fences and l think it may be ideal.
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Redhills I do both. On HHB I have removed everything with power washer. I have also removed most of the bark with knife and then cleaned up with power washer. On elm which has a much thicker bark I usually remove most of the big stuff with drawknife and then clean up with washer.
As for the process. I start from one end and try to get between the bark and back with my wash water. Then I chase it from one end to the other. It’s kinda like eating corn on the cob. Some people might go around the cob from one end to the other and some people might take it a pass from one end to the other and then come back.
Bjrogg
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I like to take random bites all over just to make it weird
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I like to take random bites all over just to make it weird
Yup more than one way to eat a cob of corn.
Bjrogg