Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ibex on January 24, 2021, 09:22:12 am
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I have had the pleasure receiving bows from Marc and Steve G. that were tip top performers. Now that I can manage somewhat to build one that holds it's own for my needs, I would be very concerned that it might blow up and hurt someone else. How many others out there have achieved the level of confidently marketing these bows that are built entirely with natural materials?
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A few have but not too many people want to put in the level of work needed versus the return they get.
Insurance is for the unforeseen blow ups.
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Being a professional artisan is tough. I started making pottery several years ago and only got to the point where I could sell a lot in late 2018. I only made a decent profit in 2019.
The setup cost is always more than you expect. Between materials, outfitting a shop with enough production capacity, developing selling venues, and simply learning the trade you will have to be very committed if you want to make enough money to call it a successful business.
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This question haunted me when I was made redundant a while back and saw me really appraise my approach. For me it comes down to this. If you are selling something then it has to be of the same quality, or better, than something you can buy from a shop, so, fully a professionally made product. If you can make a professional standard bow then it blowing up wont be an issue. I have not produced many I would be happy taking to a shop to ask them to sell for me.
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People have been making bows for thousands of years without needing insurance. How many instances have there actually been with a known bowyer selling bows and then having them break, causing lasting injuries? I can't think of a single one.
"If you can make a professional standard bow then it blowing up wont be an issue." Totally agree, Stuck.
Now if you are someone that sells a product, like a bow full of chrysals, or other uncompensated weak points it and blows soon after purchase, then that's a different matter, even if no injury is acquired.
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Business-wise, it might make more sense to sell bow staves, blanks, or u-finish kits to city people. But that would turn into a rather tedious trade pretty soon.
If you are capable of producing top-dollar high-performance custom bows, you can probably get a liability insurance. If not, at least get a liability waiver signed by the buyer. It appears that the real money is in bow making classes. If you are not into teaching, you would probably become just another starving artisan. Anyhow you need to have a website first. Good luck.
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That make sense about the staves, kits, and lessons. That is what works for the established companies like Pine Hollow Longbows.
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I've sold plenty, even managed to pay the bills for a few consecutive months. But man, I put way more time into them than I do at any regular job. I'm about convinced the only way to make money is to price them so high, most folks can't afford them. And in order to do that, you got to make top quality. Im thinking about giving it another go myself, im trying to build up more name recognition with my bow style though first.
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A Pine Hollow custom is a cool $1200
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A Pine Hollow custom is a cool $1200
And honestly, thats pretty close to what im thinking of going up towards. 50 hrs into a bow and countless hours of marketing, yeah, thats probably an honest price, assuming good quality. Im thinking of going from 800-1200 but im going for a few more flight records to prove my bows performance and quality.
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Good feedback. I'm not at all interested in selling bows, I'm mainly interested in knowing how many of you are currently selling them.
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Quite a few guys seem to sell them here and there. Only a couple of guys only sell bows.
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Dave mead's simple designed Bamboo horse bows seems to be doing alright for him.. You can buy his kit bow, and put together, at a reasonable price, and they do perform. No bling just a good functional bow to hunt ,and shoot target with. Easy to construct time wise. He also makes pricier sinew backed snake skin bows ,and recurves if you want one. More time consuming to make, and costs more.
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Either do a quicky, cheap bow like those bamboo things or charge a fortune and make something you are proud of. Sleek you have the right idea....go straight in with a top money price tag and don't give discounts to anybody.....your work had better be flawless tho....everytime....good luck if you decide to persue it. Some unique touches/a strong recognizable style will help.
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I sell very few now, and mostly only fairly locally.
The problem high performance is that it brings with it decreased reliability.
There a lot of people wanting heavy (100# and over) bows, but these tend to have a limited lifespan unless the user (or the person standing next to them) keeps an eye on them.
I've saved several warbows for people by noticing the tiller had gone off and it needed re-working... they were not made by me (my bows just explode ;) )
The other thing is I only make what interests me... churning out endless mid weight ELBs would be rather dull work.
Follow your own path, but beware sometimes bows fail, most people are reasonable and will allow you to make good any problems, but it only needs one mouthy idiot to potentially spoil your reputation.
Case in point:-
I had one guy who wanted me to make a bow from his, not very good Yew stave... I said all the usual about how I'd maintain it if necessary. Well he said it was great and I never hear from him again... until ... a couple of years later. He was asking about flight arrows on FB...
He didn't like my advice and proceeded to say that I knew nothing and the bow I made him was rubbish and bent like a banana!??? (Had that been true, and if he'd sent it back, I'd have fixed it)
He was shut down pretty quickly by some other bowyers and it turned out that he'd gone from bowyer to bowyer with demands for some specific bow/draw weight, then complained (loudly to all and sundry) when they made what he wanted. (I think he was expecting to shoot 1/4 mile or something ::) )
He was a thoroughly nasty man who spouted racist opinions despite being married to an African woman and having 2 mixed race kids :'(
There are some idiots out there so beware.
Del
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I made a few for cost of material for family members and a dozen for free for kids as Christmas gifts. Reasonable policy might be to overbuilt them, then test draw them 2 inches more than recommended draw and even to back them, so they do not explode into pieces. Kids bows I tillered to 24 inch draw, even they pull barely 20.
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I also received a fantastic bow from Bryce (Pinecone) that turned out to be one last he built before his terrible accident I believe. I never had one of Ed Scott's Owl bows, but I've heard nothing but good about them. I've noticed that Waylon (sp?) is putting out some bows that are apparently high performance works of art. I know for a fact that Marc's bows will hold their own against synthetic recurves for many years because I've had several of them. Steve Gardner can build bows quicker than anybody I've seen and they are tip top shooters. I'm hoping there are many more successful builders and sellers that I'd really like to learn about doing the same thing.
Part of the reason I'm interested in successful self-bow builders is because I tried to market synthetic TD recurves for quite a few years. I ended up dealing with some of the same issues and problems that I'm hearing from you people. To me it's better just to tinker around in the garage anymore. I have to take my hat off to anybody that can develop a good reputation, deal with liability, difficult customers, performance/craftsmanship expectations, and bring in money to support a family or ones self over a long period of time.
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I quit selling bows because of liability concerns, I donate one to charity every now and them but that is about it. Once the bow leaves your hands and no matter how clear and concise instructions for caring for the bow you send with it, you have no control over it.
You can't prevent a buyer with a 26" draw from handing your bow to his 6'6" knuckle dragging cousin who will pull it back to 32", blow it up and put his eye out.
Too many "have a wreck get a check" lawyers out there now.
At 73 I worked too hard putting together a comfortable retirement to have some slick lawyer take it all away from me. The cost of liability insurance didn't add up for me.
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Unfortunately once your bows are out there that risk will always be there.
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A Pine Hollow custom is a cool $1200
Hummm I must be way to cheap.
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A Pine Hollow custom is a cool $1200
Hummm I must be way to cheap.
Id say, you always just give em away!
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Either do a quicky, cheap bow like those bamboo things or charge a fortune and make something you are proud of. Sleek you have the right idea....go straight in with a top money price tag and don't give discounts to anybody.....your work had better be flawless tho....everytime....good luck if you decide to persue it. Some unique touches/a strong recognizable style will help.
I'm hoping that my short recurve design kind of fits the bill of a strong recognizable style. I may end up doing something with the tips, fades or grip as well to further set my work apart, but my main hope is that my short bow design is soon recognized on its own.
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Like Pat said, I do have a lot of bows out there. One thing I found, if they are going to blow they do it in a short time span, two weeks or a month, I replaced all of the ones that did, no more problems.
If they get past that first break in period they are generally good for the long haul. The ones that failed down the road that I know about had in excess of 200K shots through them and gave the "tink" warning to let the owner know it was wall hanger time. I didn't replace any of the long term bows, fixed them if I could with a string wrap and glue but many were 10 years old or so.
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Eric that sounds like they where well past warranty. 😁Arvin
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I guess talented artisans of "primitive" bows need to form a co-op to help and protect each other. Can such a co-op provide product liability insurance to its members? Is there a corporate lawyer who loves "primitive" bows?
Cf. http://www.bowyersandfletchersguild.org/index.html -- Members are required to have their own insurance.
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I had no idea there was a guild.
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I've had to replace a few and made a few more than once when they didn't quite make it to the shooting stage. High performance bows are not fun to make for other people. They are too stressed for extensive target shooting, which people like to do. Better to make bows that are just one step down from high performance if you want to sell them, it's safer
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Bownarra , "Not a bamboo thing". The BOW is a high performance, smooth drawing, durable bow that shoots a 500 grain arrow with authority, and modestly priced in kit form, or sold as a complete bow, and their is a market out their for a bow like that. He is proving that with his sells.He can easily replace the limbs, riser,or siyahs with out out throwing the bow in the trash. You can easily take the bow down if need be. Well thought out even though it is out of the box thinking. Unique. I don't know or ever talked to the man, but give credit were credit is due.