Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bigcountry on January 28, 2009, 07:09:27 pm
-
I have done a search on hide glue on this page, and my head hurts. Should I just use Knox for sinewing my bow? Or should I go buy a 1/2 pound from a music instrument place like frets.com?
-
If you have never used music instrument hide glue, then you might be better off using knox. There is also a liquid hide glue available in a squeeze bottle from Titebond (mail order might be faster than trying to find it locally). Ebay is the best place to find cheap hide glue, IMO, or you can trade for it here.
If I were you I would not use music instrument hide glue unless you have a proper hide glue warming set-up (hide glue pot)...and are working in a warm, humid shop.
Might wanna take a pill for the headache too. ;D
-
Big Country
You can buy hide glue from Three rivers archery.They are an advertiser in P.A. magazine.Ron
-
3 Rivers has it as well as Pine Hollow Longbows, both sponsors of PA.
Tracy
-
I was going to use the hide glue from titebond, but was reading Jim's Hamm's book and he said he had several bows break using it. Seems there are several sources
Is knox good?
-
Has anyone here used the stuff from 3r's? Is it any good?
-
Hi, I have the impression that most hide and fish glues are pretty close to the same thing...except for the liquid kind which has been chemically treated to prevent gelling. The varieties of collogen glues vary mainly in how long they take to gel. Knox gels quite quickly. The hide glues from the archery suppliers ( or many woodworking caalogs) takes slightly longer. Fish bladder glues take longer yet. The longer it takes to gel, the easier it is to use. A warm humid workroom also helps to slow the gelling. To get a neat sinewing job it really helps to have time to lay the sinew on and smooth it out before the glue gels. I've never tried the liquid glue, but I too have read Hamm's warnings against it. An electric glue pot helps a lot. Ron
-
Granulated hide glue comes in many grades. I use mostly rabbit, the strongest. I have used 3R glue for years in my violin shop. It is hoofed-glue, i.e. horse/cow. Good stuff. Prep is easy, not rocket science. No electric glue pot needed. Go to Goodwill and buy an electric soup /tea pot......i go through one every other year and they cost a couple of bucks. Get one with the adjustable heat level, knob on the bottom. Or, buy new at the store, for about $18. A good GLUE POT will set you back most of $100. The key is to soak the glue properly, heat no higher than 150 degrees, thin the glue properly with clean water, and make sure your work is warm. For large or complex glueings in our shop we warm up the contact faces with a hair dryer or alchohol lamp first. Work in small, controllable zones and you will be successful, e.g. don't coat the entire back of the bow and then reach for the backing. Good hide glue has a gell time of about 15 seconds. Bottled hide glue is good for sealing envelopes, period. Don't trust any wood work made or repaired with that junk......it never gells, it only dries.
KNOX is a low strength compound. Yes it works, but it works best in the kitchen.
Questions? PM me or post here or phone me at work.
piper http://www.kdavisviolins.com (nearly 30-years running of using hide glue every dang day)
-
If you haven't gotten the idea already--do not use Liquid Hide glue in bottle form to sinew back a bow. I have seen people have success with Knox, and I have also seen people that didn't. The best bet it to buy or trade for a bag of the real thing.
-
This very intereting topic comes around every so often and I'm glad it does. I was a woodworker before I started making bows seriously and I brought many woodworking skills into my bowmaking hobby....including using glues of various sorts.
I never used hide glue in my woodwork because I was told it was a hassle, it had a very short shelf life, and it was outdated. I was told it was best used on restorations, glass etching, crackle finishes, musical instruments, and application of gold leaf and such. And, of course, envelopes. Anyway, I began using hide glue when I started sinewing bows. I bought only the best grade stuff, invested money in a glue pot (not the expensive type), and read as much on the subject as possible. Then I used it on a bow. Boy, was that a shocker. I think it took me 6 hours to sinew my first bow....not including processing the sinew, soaking the hide glue granules, and setting up a work area. The biggest differences between working with sinew and working on wood joinery is the fact that you get the glue all over the place, you don't need to apply clamping pressure, and you're working with stuff (glue-soaked sinew) that will stick to you better than it sticks to the wood.
Point is, applying sinew is not like gluing up a joint. And the strength needed to keep sinew attached to the back of a bow is not the same as the strength needed for woodworking. I've never used liquid hide glue or knox, but I've heard they work fine. The liquid hide glue has a limited shelf life, so it's risky to use unless you know the manufacture date. I don't think they print it on the bottle.
-
I would highly suggest making your own glue.
Throw some hide in a pot of the back of the stove and simmer it for 2 days, turning it off at night. If there are any chunks left, take them out and pour it into a shallow pie pan and put it in the fridge.
I recently tried dehydrating the glue to preserve it, and while drying in a glass pyrex pie plate, the glue shrinks and actually pulled two splinters of glass up. Now that is immense pressure.
give it a try, you'll learn alot, and it is very satisfying to use glue you've made yourself, from an animal you know.
-
I was reading the glue section of TB vol1 and it said knox gelatin was the strongest of the bunch. I was shocked. Evens stronger than fish glue or rabbit glue.
-
I was reading the glue section of TB vol1 and it said knox gelatin was the strongest of the bunch. I was shocked. Evens stronger than fish glue or rabbit glue.
I read an article in a scientific magazine that said knox isn't. The problem is that when you purchase hide glue you could be getting anything so there is no telling what strength you will get. Read islandpipers info about various grades. :D Buy from a source that will tell you what grade it is.
-
Use Knox. It works very well for sinewing bows. I have sinewed bows with granulated hide glue from various sorces all very good, I have used TB2, TB3 and Knox. I now use Knox exclusivley for all of my sinew, rawhide, snake skin, fletching wraps etc.....It works very good. . The point I think most people miss when talking of sinew and glue is that the "bestest hardest strongest highest quality works on other aplications" is not nessecary for sinewing bows. Knox is a very high grade hide glue and I cannot recomend it enough and I have sinewed a lot of bows. It works great.
On another use for knox: I just built a Yumi in the traditional way.....bamboo and wood core rope and wedges. The core and back is glued with knox and its been shot well over 1000 times with no trouble. Its a glue that works very well for all bow making aplications. This last yumi one I did the belly with TB2 so that I could remove if nessecary with heat......otherwise its all knox. I am starting another Yumi in the AM and this one will be 100% knoxed.
Steve
-
Knox is not hide glue its bone glue. Therefore the proteins are not as strong as animal hides. Knox works like said depends on the quality of strength ya want. Ta each his own huh ? ............bob
-
Where do you get that it is bone glue?
Steve
-
The History Channel series 'Modern Marvels' toured the knox plant in thier episode about acids.It shows them recieving truck loads of 1" pieces of cow bone ,disolving them them in acid ,them chemicaly extracting the protiens .
Ralph
-
Well now that I didnt know that it was on tv on a program. The cats outta the bag huh ? Steve.....my info came from talkin' directly with them. They had no BONES about tellin' me (Pun intended ) ;D Its food grade so the bone protein is more digestible.........bob
-
Someone pass da popcorn eh ;) :D
-
Thats ok....It still works great. I think that a better way to say it though is to say that it has bone in it.....that I will believe.
Either way you look at it its a great glue. I use it a lot. I am not a spokesmen for Knox so could really care less what you all use. I will keep using it because I like it.
Steve
-
Knox works great. Hide glue works great. Home-brew hide glue works great. The point is- no matter which is what, they all work. I haven't made a lot of sinewed bows, but I have sinewed three bows with Knox over the years and didn't have any problems. I sinewed one bow with homemade hide glue and didn't have any problems. Hide glue maybe has more mojo, but it's all good.Go forth and sinew.
-
Hillbilly, Yes thats the best way to put it. Remeber the "Wood Wars"??
lol....this is on the same lines.
It all works.
-
Thats ok....It still works great. I think that a better way to say it though is to say that it has bone in it.....that I will believe.
Either way you look at it its a great glue. I use it a lot. I am not a spokesmen for Knox so could really care less what you all use. I will keep using it because I like it.
Steve
The name of the thread is "Sinew and Hide glue ". Knox is bone glue NOT hide glue. Ifn ya wanna use semantics here ta say it has bone glue in it thats fine with me. Like you dont care what foks use. This is not the same as the white wood wars. White wood there was being said as good as osage and disputed by the osage foks. There is no dispute here, the facts are out in the open fer all ta see. Knox is bone glue period its NOT hide glue as I said. That bein' said "keep on keepin' on " and "whatever floats yer boat ." No axe ta grind here.........bob
-
Take a deep breath there. It will help you out tremendously.
-
Steve...........your the one that needs ta take a deep breath and look at the title of the thread. ;)........bob
-
I dont think so....
Opening question of the thred:
"I have done a search on hide glue on this page, and my head hurts. Should I just use Knox for sinewing my bow? Or should I go buy a 1/2 pound from a music instrument place like frets.com? "
You can look at the title of the thred all you want. I am answering the question posted. And now I remeber why I have not been posting here :-\
Steve
-
ok then to answer the original question .
Hide glue is sold by the manufacturer (can't name them ) by it's strength measured in jelly grams .Weaker glue is cheaper .The weakest glue they sell is listed at 80 jelly grams ,the strongest at 512 jelly grams .I have no idea if anyone lists the jelly gram numbers for knox , but I do know archery supply places don't post the batch strength of the glue they resell .
This leads me to believe most suppliers carry glue much closer to the 80 jelly gram rating ,than the much higher 512 jelly gram rating .This could easily explain knox's current good reputation as glue. I have bought the 512 jelly gram glue direct myself (he told me he sold very little of it) and it is much stronger than most hide glue I've used .The batch of 512 jelly gram glue I got is very close to well made ,homemade hide glue ,and will crackle glass.
Ralph
-
Steve...........your the one that needs ta take a deep breath and look at the title of the thread. ;)........bob
Well, since I was the thread starter, let me explain my wants. I wanted to basically know about sinewing and what to use. I am a newbie. And knox is obviously a choice for some. So I appreciate the info on all of it. Even TB3. But the idea of using TB3 doens't make sense to me. I thought the idea was to use a protien animal glue with a protein animal product and they would meld into a beatiuful good back of a bow. And add wieght.
Thanks for all's contribution. They are all appreciated.
-
ok then to answer the original question .
Hide glue is sold by the manufacturer (can't name them ) by it's strength measured in jelly grams .Weaker glue is cheaper .The weakest glue they sell is listed at 80 jelly grams ,the strongest at 512 jelly grams .I have no idea if anyone lists the jelly gram numbers for knox , but I do know archery supply places don't post the batch strength of the glue they resell .
This leads me to believe most suppliers carry glue much closer to the 80 jelly gram rating ,than the much higher 512 jelly gram rating .This could easily explain knox's current good reputation as glue. I have bought the 512 jelly gram glue direct myself (he told me he sold very little of it) and it is much stronger than most hide glue I've used .The batch of 512 jelly gram glue I got is very close to well made ,homemade hide glue ,and will crackle glass.
Ralph
Knox claims a gel strength around 350 grams, but it does weaken as it dries. Hide glue is usually about 20% higher dried than as a gel. Hide glue purchased for woodworking averages around 250. That explains the tests in TBB I. If you make your own from hide you can get more strength. You can make liquid hide glue by adding urea to warm hide glue. The shelf life of liquid hide glue is about 6 months. After that the urea starts to degrade the glue.
bigcountry, I would take AKAPK up on the hide offer if I were you. You can even grind the dried chunks of hide and they dissolve faster.
-
I do like a good heated discussion, you cant buy knox over here so I dont have to worry about it, I'm about to try some fish bladder glue that I just made my self!! never used any animal glues so far , so wish me luck!! my plan is to do away with chemicals alltogether,
by the way I believe hide glue will be stronger than knox if it's made well, and of a higher grade ,
you can only buy one grade of hide glue here as well , which I believe is graded at 80 (80 what I dont know) , is this strong enough to gue backings on or should I make my own? and if I make my own how do I know what grade it is ???
-
.................This is ridiculous an I guess ya gotta agree with foks or they dont wanna post. Bigcountry..............good luck with yer project.....bob
-
[bigcountry, I would take AKAPK up on the hide offer if I were you. You can even grind the dried chunks of hide and they dissolve faster.
I didn't see the offer ???
-
This is a good thread, even with the snippin an snipin. I learned a lot, "gel strength" "rabbit strength" and even bone strength. Thanks for starting it and thanks to all for the good info. I have been ignorantly using bottled hide glue for fletching, knoxx for wrapping an musical grade stuff for backing. Then to make things worse I have even mix an matched those glues when I ran out of one or the other. I have had backing failures, but mostly from the sinew/hideglue team overpowering the wood and separating the fibers like a delamination.
Can't realy complain about the glue there tho just my choice of stave.
Oh well enuf of ramblin.
Thanks again for all the good info.
"Shoot low fellas, the bad guys are ridin ponies."
-
[bigcountry, I would take AKAPK up on the hide offer if I were you. You can even grind the dried chunks of hide and they dissolve faster.
I didn't see the offer ???
It was there for quite a while. He deleted it now, he must have changed his mind.
-
majsnuff, fish bladder is great glue. It is more flexable than hide or bone glue. You can glue leather with it for making quivers and such. Musical grade should be fine as long as you aren't making short high stress bows with wood backings. I don't see a problem with most animal glues as long as you aren't building hornbows. For that I would use nothing but the best hide glue. Justin
-
I've used both knox and Titebond hide glue for sinew. I must say, the TB hideglue works very well, and is sure a bunch easier.
-
One other thing. Knox is the secret to a good 8" mohawk. ;D It will keep a mohawk in place better than any hair gel but washes out with warm water. :o Only a bald guy would know that. ;)