Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: Keenan on February 14, 2009, 12:06:24 am
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Well hope our elk and deer herds don't take to big of hit. >:( >:( :'(
http://www.nuggetnews.com/main.asp?SectionID=5&SubSectionID=5&ArticleID=15438&TM=75367.03
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We've had wolves here in the UP now for a number of years so i feel your pain >:(
The antis and animal lovers will be all over this, Keenan just remember they only kill the weak and sick animals ::) :P :-*
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So many lies and denials about the wolves. Same thing happend out of Casper, Wyo. with all the "experts" tossing in with their bias opinions. I laugh when they say a wolf would not be in that good of condition this time of year. Well, I can show you pictures of dead ones killed by the US Wildlife people that weight over 170 lbs. and in prime condition. Beautiful as they are, it is a very big mistake to reintroduce them. So very many millions have already been spent on them in times when we have people out of work and on the dole! Watcher
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Once they get established your elk herds will begin an immediate decline. The feds will deny it to the end, claiming that the herds are stronger and healthier.. around here wherever the wolves hunt, the herds are in a rapid decline and the wolves ae on a perpetual upswing. A recent trip into Yellowstone this winter showed atleast half last years number of elk and bison where three wolf packs hunt during the winter. As usual the droves of wolf observers along the roadways say that the herds are smaller now but much healtheir. ::) While they watch a healthy three year old cow be eaten near Mammoth hot springs, I glassed all the open hillsides along the south facing slopes and counted only fifty elk. Last year at the same time of year I counted three hundred :( :( :( Hawk
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300 to 50 eh Mike probably global warming not the wolves or it could be ______ fault ;) :D :o
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Probably they were abducted by aliens for some experiment to better all of mankind ;D ;) Hawk
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Yep,, All the writing is on the wall as they say. I was hesitant to post this because of the feelings that some have towards wolves and I do respect that but I know the damage that we are headed for. >:( :'( :'( :'(
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Keenan they won't eat all the game, heck I saw two deer last year bow hunting and man were they healhty ::) ;) :D
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I wonder how the animal numbers faired before wolves left these areas? Even here in Kentucky their were wolves at one time (red wolves) now all we got is yotes. I would love to go elk hunting one of these days so I hope the wolves don't eat em all first.
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Even though I like Wolves a large number of them worry me as well. If left uncontrolled they will decimate a herd. My wife and I watched a couple of Grey Wolves feed on a carcass on the other side of the river a couple days ago
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I hunted elk every year on Bear Creek just outside the north end of Yellowstone for years untill the wolves showed up. I always saw elk. Now you would be lucky to find a track of one.
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I don't live in wolf country so take this for what it is worth ;D...I think we have a need for our large native predators. They managed the herds well before we came along...but their numbers need to be controlled also. We are now in control of nature anymore so we have the responsibility to maintain healthy numbers of all our native species, predator and prey alike.
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Pat your absolutely right, I now live in wolf country and their are no controls on them and likely never will be.
They delisted them last year and within a month the antis had sued and put them right back on the E.S. list.
DNR estimates over 500 wolves here in the UP so I'm thinking the number is a lot higher than that as the DNR
has never been able to count right. I have no problem with wolves being here as they were a native species,
but you can't get all romantic about them they need control as in trapping and or hunting but the citified liberals
down in the cities get all misty eyed when you talk about killing them. Hmmmm wonder how they would feel if they
had em there hunting their little pampered pets!
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Pat B: People that don't live here have no idea what these huge Canadian wolves do to those of us that have to submit to Government control. Private property rights and state's rights have no meaning. They have had a devastating effect on our moose populations. I have been lucky so far as have been able to chase them off my horses. Can send you pictures of them in my yard. A two year old male weights 175 pounds. The neighbors have lost several steers to them after hunting season this year. They have made tremendous changes to the elk dynamics and don't even begin to eat what they kill. We don't want to eradicate them, only control their numbers to balance the effect they have on livestock and wildlife populations. Watcher
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Well it seems we are all on the same page but from a different perspective. ;)
Dana, I am one of those certified liberals and have been for over 40 years but I don't live in a city. Maybe that's the difference! ;D ;)
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Well it seems we are all on the same page but from a different perspective. ;)
Dana, I am one of those certified liberals and have been for over 40 years but I don't live in a city. Maybe that's the difference! ;D ;)
Yup I know Pat ;) :D
Me I'm just a stubborn old Yooper :D
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Your a Liberal Pat?? ....I guess I am one in a way too....and I too believe that the Wolf should be here...just like the Moose. Deer, Bear, Coyote, Raptors....and the List goes on and on....It is up to Us to balance Nature to the Point that All Species can coexist again....We are the cause for it's imbalance to begin with....We are the ones taking away all of their natural range....and encroaching on them....not them on Us And as we will not quit encroaching....We need to find ways to ensure that no One Species takes the Brunt of Our advancements...they were all here first....and it would surely be a shame if they were decimated just for Us to build more Sub Divisions and Subburbs....I ain't getting all Misty Eyed either Dana.....I love to see Squirrels as much as I do Eagles when I am out in the Wilderness....and I think it would be a shame to lose any of them as a Species.....We owe it to the future generations to protect and to ensure that they are still here in a couple hundred years....and this will not just take Protection Laws....it will also take Harvesting some of these beautiful Creatures to keep everything in check.....JMHO
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There are plenty of deer and elk and moose to go around. Considering most of us hunt for pleasure and the wolves hunt because they have no choice I think they might be entitled to a couple more than us. I would bet less deer go to waste due to wolves than hunters...I am sure all of us "pure" archery hunters never waste anything from the animals we kill, right?? Manage the wolf population...I am all for it just remember we are not the center of the world so lets be good neighbors and share.
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Once again people who don't live here (Northwest Wyoming) have no clue as to the problems the planting of a non native species of wolves has caused people who make their living raising cattle for market! We can't go back to the days where we as humans did not encroach on the territories of the wildlife. If there was a small area for the wolves to live in the forests and national parks it would be different, but there are millions of acres of wild country for the wolves and grizzlies to habitate. The problem is they kill livestock on private ground and with the present laws there is little to nothing the owners can do about it. You are mistaken about the number of animals the wolves vs hunters waste in OUR area. Send me your email address and I will send you some pictures that show the real story. We are willing to live with outsiders planting non essential, non native wolves in Yellowstone, just give us the right to defend our livestock and wildlife by controlling the numbers of wolves and grizzlies! None of you fellows love nature, its beauty and balance more than I do. Watcher
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See we all basically agree that wolves and all animals need protection but they also need to have control.
What the PETA and Humane Society of America want is to ban all hunting and let nature take its course,
right up till the deer are in their yards eating their landscaped yards, then ya call in a professional to make the
problem go away, under cover of darkness of course so they can pretend it didn't happen.
The problem with getting a season on wolves is mostly political and not tied to management principles in any way.
The end result is people will take it upon themselves to manage the wolf population :o Here in the UP in the area I hunt we had
a bad winter last year which resulted in many deer deaths, throw in the fawns taken by bobcat, bear, and yotes and the adult deer
that the wolves take, the car/deer deaths, crop damage permits, violators, etc and their aren't many left for us hunters.
One other point and thats, we as sportsman pay through our license fees and taxes to maintain the wildlife population, the antis and
other so called animal rightests folk pay nothing but their voices apparently carry more weight with the politicians than anyone elses.
Your hunting rights are more in peril now than at any other point in history all hunters had best put their differences aside and band
together if we are going to continue to enjoy the right to hunt. If you don't believe me on this than you really need to get your head
out of the sand and open your eyes to the reality before you. The enemy is about to surround us and cut off all the escape routes at
that point ya might as well jump off the cliff as it will be less painful ;)
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I spend more time in the wilderness than most, so feel I can offer up a realistic account of OUR wolf problem.. I must admit that seeing or hearing one of these majestic creatures while in the back country does stir a feeling of being truly wild. Nothing is so beautiful as the call of a wolf on a cold fall morning, nor to lock eyes with a fellow predator in deep timber. But the romance ends there. You can't leave your dog or horses while you stalk elk , the wolves will kill a dog or horse and leave it lay. The packs around here are not wild, they are monitored constantly. Still they kill more livestock than Grizzlies, black bears and Mountain lions combined. I have personally found dozens of elk and moose kills where the animal was only partly consumed. the rest was left to waste >:( management of our wolves, consists of letting a pack grow, kill for a few years, then when they kill enough livestock.. The feds kill the wolves, and then let them rot >:( >:( this is not management, this is waste.... we as sportsmen have to decide, do we want to hunt elk, deer sheep moose, etc. or do we want wolves in our ecosystem.. we can not have both... too many super predators hunting the same area and the herds will, and have suffered signifficent loss. we hunt about three months around here.. the wolves have to hunt 365.. that adds up to a lot of dead elk... the grizz hunt and kill elk calves as they hit the ground in the spring.. wolves hunt the calves very efficiently through the summer months.. by fall it is not uncommon to see herds of fifty or more with few or no calves... my opinion on this subject is just that, my opinin... but there is no exception for experiences lived and seen in the high lands... if something is not done soon we could easily see an end to or hunting heritage in our childrens future... Hawk
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To all reading this thread: I will pull this thread if it goes into a right or wrong debate! I know how I feel as do others may have differing views and I respect that. But this thread was meant as an informative warning about changes in Oregon.
They are here, that is the fact, be it right or wrong.
Please lets leave it at that and not start a discusion about Peta or animal vs. human rights Thank you. Keenan
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PETA....who brought that screwed up Bunch into this???
To me this is what PETA stands for...... >:D
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well said brother, sorry I got off on a rant... O:) Hawk
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You can pull this thread if you please! I guess you are not interested in learning the truth about the wolf situation we live with! Watcher
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Hey Wolf Watcher, that is the wrong attitude to have. If the conversation can stay civil it won't be pulled.
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I brought PETA into this, guilty as charged but ya can't talk about one without talking about the other now can ya.
In my opinion this has been a very civil debate, those of you without wolves in your area can't really understand the impact they have.
One of the downsides of this forum is that we can't really discuss what affects our shared interest in hunting and the future of the same >:(
I really think we need to be able to share our views and opinions on this issue as it affects all of us whether you hunt with selfbows, compounds or guns.
How about we start a thread in the Anything Else section on hunting rights or the lack thereof, after all fiberglass is allowed there why not allow hunting
issues and the threat to hunting posed by the antis? As long as it is kept civil whats the problem eh :)
Moderators I'm not trying to be a rabble rouser but it really is a big issue and a healthy debate never hurt anyone.
Just my humble opinion :)
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We are getting a healthy Wolf population up here and a lot of livestock are being killed. It's a pity that PETA can't be made to foot the bill for all the domestic animals that are killed by Wolves. Maybe then they would think twice about sticking their noses where it doesn't belong. :)
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Marc that is one of the best idea I've ever heard :)
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Wolf watcher gets a little on top of this issue... He has been out in the mountains for the last weeks personally dealing with livestock kills and predation on his neighbors cattle and livestock by a pack of rogue wolves... the feds killed another pack that was slaying cattle a few weeks ago... all males, so much for the wolf family groups and natural hierarchy...any how I will let this issue go, it is hard to not get personal about an issue we have to live with out here.... everyone is allowed their personal views, but it is just too easy for others to get their feelings hurt with issues like the wolves... Happy hunting brothers, Hawk
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Florida is not far behind. They have been breeding the Red Wolf on the down low, nice and quiet in the swamp north of town. I live in the largest county in Florida also famous for cattle ranches. I've heard that if they are released in the wild and spotted they will not last long, law or no law. I've already seen some 'Yotes?, that I thought was way to big. Also the panther(couger from Texas), is making a come back. We have been spotting them more recently.
Also, if you like PETA, do some research on the Humane Society.
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Very well stated Hawk. Good point Eddie.
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Keenan, you run out of cascade elk Thereis plenty in NW Oregon ;D. This is the air museum in Tillamook.
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Sorry the pics are fuzzy. We were parked on the side of Highway 101 to get these pics. Joel
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Joel, Did you have a Tillamook Ice Cream while you were watching the elk?
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Pat That was going into town so we hadnt been there yet. But we did stop at the cheese factery on our way through. Joel
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Last I knew wolves were native to the entire continental US so there is no basis to claim they are an introduced or non native species. They were extripated from virtually their entire range by european americans who thought they had a higher claim to the land. Should farmers/ranchers be compensated for damage to their herds?...I think so. And it should be paid for by every citizen as these wolves belong to all of us.
But this idea that the wolves are evil or somehow out of place or where they should not be is just a really difficult idea for me to accept. Life is full of risks every day, whether we live in the city and have to worry about other humans targeting us, or the forest and we may have to deal directly with a wolf, bear,venomous snake, or weak ice and falling trees...No one, especially the gov't has promised, or should promise us, a life in a rose garden. Know the risks of whatever activity you choose to pursue and either accept them or choose something else to do with your time.
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I don't think anyone is contending that the wolves don't have a place, but what I'm saying is
that control measures need to be in place to keep the population at reasonable number, same as they do for the deer herd,
But when it comes to wolves they are hands off, not even the state has the right to kill em. If you shoot one it had better be gnawing on your leg
when you pull the trigger or your going to jail and will pay a huge fine. This is Michigan I'm talking about. No one will ever convince me that a wolf is a great and noble animal, they are just another of Gods creations, they are what they are and that is a top rung predator!
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Can't see much in your post DanaM to argue with...If a wolf was chewing on my leg I would shoot it in a heart beat. But to shoot it just because it eats/wastes deer/cows is just silly.
I would argue that wolves are high and noble same as human hunters. In my mind they are the epitome of freedom and should be treated with the respect any of us would claim for ourselves. And yeah, their population should be managed based on good science, not on us fearing there won't be any deer or moose for us. FWIW
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Sorry, brother I a not willing to give up my hunt to the wolves... there is only enough habitat left for a certain amount of elk and deer.. unfortunately there can't be a balance between wolves and human hunters... they are just too efficient of hunters...as are we.. when we compete for the same prey as wolves in such a small ecosystem eventually the herds will decline to a point where the wolves and we hunters will be hard pressed to find prey to hunt at all...We as humans have laws to protect the herds from dying off through selective harvest and controll, wolves don't have the same luxury.. They hunt every day for survival, when the herds decline , so do the wolves.. I guess my point is are we willing to trade wolves for deer, elk, moose and sheep, only to lose the wolves in te end to starvation.. I love to see wolves in the high country, the problem is they won't stay there.. cows are just too easy to catch. We can't blame the wolves for being introduced.. these wolves are a whole different critter than the historic wolves of the plains... these brutes can weigh in at one eighty plus ,compared to the prairie wolves at seventy pounds or so.. i am not trying to argue with you bro, just educate on the true nature of OUR problem out here in Wyoming.. as a hunter, conservationist and nature lover, I believe it is my responsabiliy to shed some light on the real dangers facing our elk.. I am sure many of the bowhunters on this site would love to come out to the west and hunt an elk someday. Unfortunately with the wolves at the numbers they are, that dream hunt may not be a reality for much longer...I do hunt elk right along side grizz , mountain lions and wolves and have for twenty plus years.. I have been bit by a ratter, and charged by a sow grizz wih cubs...and have the scars on my arm to prove it.. have had to follow my horses for miles in the wilderness after a wolf pack chased them from my camp.. haven't been hit by a faling tree of fell through the ice yet ;D so I guess I can say I accept the wildrness on her terms... but not very accepting of losing my right to hunt to a felow predator.. stay cool and keep your chin to the wind .. Hawk
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And therin lies the problem, we have a stable reproducing population of wolves here in the UP but the state has no ability
to control them because they are listed as a Edangered Species ??? They were delisted by the feds but PETA and The Hunmane Society of America
to name a few, immediately sued and they were placed back on the list. So once again the States hands are tied. This reminds me of the Cormorant issue
all over again, they ate our lakes and rivers clean of fish all the while enjoying state and fereral protection and the experts claiming they only ate rough fish
not the perch and walleye. Feds finally removed their protection and the state has been reducing their numbers. Now its the wolves turn!
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Boy.....Am I Biting a Hole in My Lip right now............... :-X
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Boy.....Am I Biting a Hole in My Lip right now............... :-X
Why Mike as long as its kept civil there is no reason not to have a healty debate :)
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I have been following this thread with interest that is until now ! Look at the title of the thread foks ! Look real hard it says oregon NOT michigan, wyoming or other places. Its about a sighting NOT about wolves will run off yer horses, eat em and yer dog ifn ya leave em in camp while yer out hunting. Its NOT about their control, cattle, livestock ,blm and their restrictions, peta er humane soceity of america er your personal opinions or who has more right ta the game , elk etc. Its about a sighting in Oregon. Kennan said that their may be changes coming in oregon. Some of ya seem ta like ta stir the pot. READ THE TITLE OF THE THREAD !!!!
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Well hope our elk and deer herds don't take to big of hit. >:( >:( :'(
Actually bob Keenans statement leads one to believe that the topic is open for discussion. Its been kept civil and no harm has been done.
The only post I see that even remotely stirs the pot is yours! With that said I'm done with this topic :-X
My apologies Keenan.
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All I will say Hawkbow is these wolves are not an introduced species...they were here long before europeans first set foot on this continent and are an integral part of the natural system. It is mankind and our sprawling agriculture and homes(second and third in some cases) and misguided claim to exclusive rights to the dirt under our feet that is the root of the problem. Managment of the wolf population is absolutely necessary just as the elk and deer need to be managed.
I for one will not advocate shooting wolves for simply being wolves until I see actual evidence that they are about to or have overwhelmed the deer and elk populations. In spite of the Feds being feds I don't think they will allow the wolves to destroy the game animals we all pay taxes hunt...no hunting no taxes and we all know how the feds love their taxes.
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Paul...ya need to read up on this Subjest some before going off....these are not Native Species....these are Canadian Grey Timber Wolves that are three times the size of our Native Red Wolves....Not from here introduced into Yellowstone and other National Parks along with various States they were brought in from areas deep in the Northwest territories of Canada...These Wolves live primarily on Moose...Elk and Whitetail deer....hell they even take down Bison...and kill for the sake of killing.... they will even drive out or kill Coyote Packs...they dont take any guff from any Species including Bears
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Dana you brought up PETA so I guess I can add my two cents worth, for what they are worth. PETA was the main reason that the spring bear hunt in Ontario was cancelled, now we are overrun with black bears and when you have a problem, you can't shoot them leagally, and the Ministry hasn't got time for you. Go figure
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timber wolves of some flavor or another are native to pretty much the entire north american continent, red wolves are native to the southeast. So with that in mind wolves are native to pretty much all of north america. I have never heard of anyone suggesting timber wolves for anywhere in the south east but if someone could show me evidence to support that timber wolves had a historic range here in GA I would not have a problem with them being reintroduced into wilderness areas here in GA or somewhere else in the south east. There is definitely a difference between a red wolf and a timber wolf but to try and claim a meaningful difference between a canandian timber wolf and a wolf from montana or oregon or minnesota is invalid.
wolves will definitely kill a coyote if given the opportunity because they compete for similar resources. that is how it works and to wring our hands about that suggests a lack of understanding about how the natural world works. We might as well get upset when a pike eats the yellow perch we were trying to catch. It sucks for that coyote or perch for sure but that is how the system is set up. and to apply moral values and judgements to what an animal does is up to you but I can't see any validity to it. Only humans are capable of immoral or abhorrent behavior because we (hopefully) have an opportunity to learn right from wrong. Animals have no way of learning under what circumstances it is okay to kill. If we can morally kill animals then animals can morally kill animals. The attempt to claim that our killing is somehow more moral or defensible does not stand up to critical thought.
And yeah, el destructo I do have a background in this stuff as I have spent the last 15yrs of my life working in the natural science and education field. My views may not be yours but that does not mean I just blowing hot air
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Paulc, around here the coyotes actually follow the wolves around.. they have learned to capitalize on the wolfs tendancy to only eat a small portion of the kill before moving on... easy food for the song dogs.. let the wolves do the work and then eat your fill... Hawk
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If there were wolves eating my livelyhood or decimating the deer herds, I would shoot it and not say anything.
Having wolves here would put the big IL outfitters out of bussiness though::)
Having all of your livestock eaten is a huge loss and none of us that do not live where wolves do or ranch were there are wolves really don't know much about this topic to say much, and I am one of them
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I'm glad to see this turn into an interesting and informative discussion. It has to be one of the most controversial topics around. The best out come would be that we all learn what the straight out facts are and land on a balance that meets in the middle. I think most of us agree that wolves are as much of the food chain as humans but left unchecked can cause allot of harm.
As some would see humans as controlling and manipulating everything in creation. There must also be the understanding that we have intelligence, and with that have a responsibility to manage. This is what has brought our elk and deer herds to flourish and grow.
We can argue about strains and genetics and who has more right then the other but that doesn't accomplish much good or bring balance. If we can somehow meet in the middle, let wolves exist yet numbers be controlled, it may be that as hunters we can have more voice in the matter and make a bigger difference for the benefit of everything.
Also there has to be some care and coverage to compensate those affected by wolf predation.
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Well put David, I wish things were different for the wolves, they were put back into a habitat where the final outcome is certain destruction of them and the wildlife they hunt, if allowed to continue like it has been for the last fourteen years here in Wyoming...I feel for Keenan and other hunters in other states, the fed has been relocating some of our problem wolves to other states in hopes of a better outcome there... from experence i can say the final chapter in this story will be a sad one for the wolves and the habitat they are thrust into.. Hawk
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I don't think the problem is the wolves themselves, they have been part of the ecosystem here for thousands of years before we came along. We used to have both timber wolves and red wolves here in the Southern Appalachians, and they didn't decimate the deer or elk or buffalo herds. The last documented timber wolf in the Southeast was killed here in my county only a few miles from where I live in(I believe) the late 1920's. The difference is that in the old days, there were millions of square miles of wild land and an almost unlimited population of game animals living in it. We started killing everything off and settling the land in the 1700's here, and by the early 1800's, our elk and buffalo were completely wiped out, and the deer not far from it. The big predators like wolves and panthers were mostly gone by then too-a few hung on here in the wildest parts of the Smokies until the early 1900's. (The last documented mountain lions in the region were killed here in my immediate area at around the same time that the last wolf died.) Top-end predators are very important in a balanced and healthy system, but nowadays, wild land is fragmented and scattered in small patches here and there and there are basically no healthy and balanced ecosystems left. There is no longer unlimited space or unlimited prey for wolves. The problem is us. Wolves are fascinating, beautiful creatures, the very epitome of wilderness. I think the world is a better place with wolves in it. But the sad truth is, there are few places left that will support them. I wish wolves could live here again, but it's unlikely. The government tried reintroducing red wolves here in the Smoky Mountains National Park a few years ago. It didn't work, because the wolves didn't know how to read the signs along the park boundaries. Even in the biggest chunk of existing wilderness in the Southeast, there wasn't enough room for them. They kept going outside the park and killing livestock, and roaming wherever they took a notion to, which is just how wolves roll. But the land base just isn't there like it used to be, and there were too many conflicts, so the government people (supposedly) rounded them all up and took them away. They reintroduced more at the other end of NC in the Alligator River Wildlife Refuge, and so far, that seems to be working out, because there are a small amount of wolves in a large wild area with an overpopulated deer herd. At some point, the population of wolves will grow bigger than the area will support, and something will have to be done. I think wolves are a legitimate part of an ecosystem, but in today's conditions, any population of wolves would have to be managed to keep them from eating themselves out of a job-reintroducing wolves without keeping the population to the number that the area will support won't work. They are a vital part of the system, but so is everything else. Just like in Africa, protected elephant populations are limited to national parks surrrounded by human settlements, and they have nowhere else to go and soon overpopulate until they destroy the land to the point that nothing can live there unless they are culled back to a number that can live there without harming everything else. It's sad that we've gotten to that point, but it's just the way the world is-the only other solution is to reduce our numbers, but I don't see any politicians standing in line to suggest that. I would love to be able to hear a wild wolf howl here again, but I have also been in the situation of trying to raise livestock and keep them alive in an area full of coyotes and bears. I have seen what the coyotes (non-native to this area, but here in large numbers now, twice the size of western 'yotes, and hunt in large packs like wolves) have done to the deer herds here in the mountains. Nowadays, if you even see a deer in a season's hunting in this county, you've done well. I would agree with reintroducing predators that are native to an area, but I would also say that in a limited area with limited prey, the number of wolves would have to be kept extremely limited also for the whole thing to work.
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Vey well put Hillbilly. In fact I think that is hitting the nail on the head on the whole topic in general. ;)
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Nice post Hillbilly, not much to add to that.
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Well put Hillbilly, this has been a fun discussion.. it is cool to hear the opinions of other hunters from other areas..... although we may disagree concerning the reintroduction or what will fix the problem, it is always good to see fellow sportsmen standing up for what they believe in 8) Hawk
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Here's a link to the website that has been studying the wolf and moose population on Isle Royal in Lake Superiorfor 50 years.
Its a unique situation as its an island and the only major prey is the moose. I guess you could say its a static ecosystem.
http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/ann_rep/ann_rep/home.html
for more info just Googel "Isle Royal Wolves"
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I really think there are some more sinister motives to these re-introductions. Here in CO there has been a battle raging over what to do with the elk in Rocky Mountain National Park. A bill was passed and a plan put forward, but it was put on hold because a lawsuit was brought forward because the idea of wolf re-introduction was not brought up. Theres a group in Boulder that used to be called Sinapu, but seems they changed there name to WildEarth Guardians... they have stated time and time again that they want to introduce wolves and grizzlies in CO with one motive to end sport hunting. Their belief is that if enough wolves and other predators are there, we dont need hunting as a management tool.
I spend alot of time in the high country as well, and I do not have anything against wolves, but I think there is alot more motive to these introductions than just the warm fuzzy of bringing the wolf back....
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we have been fighting that same battle for years... a rancher friend of mine saw a helicopter landing on his ranch.. the feds were releasing wolves on his private ground right in his calving area ::) when they were caught they denied knowing they were in the wrong.. Hawk
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Mullet,
I saw something in your post,that is a serious mistake.I see this same mistake made often,and people need to know the difference.The Humane society,are a animal welfare group,IE spay and neuter clinics.The Humane Society of the un ited states,are an animal rights group,that wants to take away your rights to hunting and fishing.BIG difference between the 2.HSUS uses this mistake,to take in a lot of tax free donations,and they cheat THS,out of large sums of money with it.Check what your moneys are being donated to,you all may not know,and be cutting your own throats.HSUS is also responsible for paying for the Legal defense of Animal liberation fronts,eco terrorist.A large amount of money was donated to HSUS,durring Hurricane Catrina,by folks thinking they were donateing to The Humane society,to help the abandoned and stranded animals.HSUS has absolutely nothing to do with this,but took the money to add to their allready exsisting billions to loby to take away our hunting rights.HSUS counts on people makeing this mistake.A hunter client of mine had Bof A checks supporting HSUS,untill i told him what and who they were.They even mentioned pet adoption,which HSUS has no interest in.How they have gotten away with it,i cant understand.People need to know who their enemies are.Peta are a joke,even to other animal activest groups.HSUS is who people need to keep an eye on.HSUS doesnt make Asses of themselves,in front of your local KFC,they do serious work in courtrooms.All anti hunting legislation,going today,has HSUS as its main driveing force.Trust me on this.
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Good Point TRAXX....absolutely true too...no ties between the two.....THC and the ASPCA are not the Humane Society of the United States....Thank God!! We have enough with the two entities to worry about
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Incidently,
I remember hearing of a wolf,hit and killed in Eastern Oregon a few yrs ago.Fact or myth,i couldnt tell ya fer shure.
What i can tell you as fact,is a pr were spotted,in North Eastern Ca,back in 89.I know it as fact,because i was 1 of the 2 people that saw em.The other thought they were coyotes at first and pointed em out to me.When i saw them drink out of a powder river trough,mounted on railroad ties,while standing flat footed,i knew they werent coyotes.I put the Bino's on em and was absolutely certain of it then.Ive been around a few captive wolves in yrs past and know a wolf when i see em.Coincidently,this was at the same time,that Elk were being spotted in the same region.The wildlife biologist of the USFS was interested in the report,but didnt seem all that interested in discussing it any further.Shure makes ya start thinkin in severall different directions.
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Thanks for clarifying the Humane Society issue Traxx, I new their was 2 different ones the good and the bad, I donate to the local dog shelter
which would be the Humane Society and I thought the other(bad) one was Humane Society of America. Funny ya mention the KFC thing they were in a local town 2 years ago protesting the KFC, a bunch of residents counter protested them with PETA signs, yup you guessed it People Eating Tasty Animals ;D
They didn't get much sympathy from the locals, hell the local radio stations were pickin on them :)
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Thanks Todd, I have brushed over the difference in names as I'm sure other people have done. Especially the ones sending in donations. I will definitely use your correction to educate as many people as possible. Thanks, buddy.
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Was just reading the local newspaper and the DNR and Fish &Wildlife service are offering up a $3000 reward
for informationleading to the arrest and conviction of whoever shot a wolf. This is the second incident since October here in the UP.
In both incidents the wolves were wearing radio collars. If folks are taking matters into their own hands and are willing to shot a collared
wolf think how many uncollared wolves are being shot! Unfortunately their is no plan in place to control the population which is estimated at 520
wolves. Of course they are presently listed as an endangered species so the State can do nothing. Even when their delisted I really don't expect any
real control measures from the State, they may kill an occasional wolf and claim they are taking care of the problem but in reality the only real control will be
folks taking matters into their own hands. As in BANG dead wolf. The wolf issue will continue to be a political issue and not a management issue its just
the way the world is today :(
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Got a sneakin hunch,that you will hear of more n more cases of SSS management,in the future.
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here is a little something else to chew on....these People aren't going to just quit either....they are out for Our Hunting Rights
http://www.ussportsmen.org:80//Page.aspx?pid=1859&srctid=1&erid=2320843
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Traxx you are right on concerning the management... Mike that is scary brother, Hawk
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Got a sneakin hunch,that you will hear of more n more cases of SSS management,in the future.
It seems to be the third S that they have a hard time with.
Dana, $3000 is cheap. the fine will cover that easily. I know 2 guys that got fined $15000 each for shooting a wild horse. Another guy here in town got fined $3000 for hitting a desert tortoise in his truck. They said he swerved and hit it on purpose.
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Yer right Justin, I'm not sure what the fine and jail time is if covicted for killing a wolf. But I do know you also lose your hunting rights.
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The guys that shot the horse got 6 months in jail to go with the fine. And most of these horses are not mustangs, they are stuff that the ranchers turned out when the government was paying them to raise horses for the world wars.
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An elk hunting guide here in Wyoming got fined for shooting a grizzly... the bear was mauling his hunter when he shot it... he was fined for killing an endangered species >:( the game and fish said he wasn't the one being attacked so had no right to shoot the bear.. something like excessive force...Hawk
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Any horses,on Federall land,after the Taylor Grazeing act took effect,are considered Mustangs and are under federall protection,and the laws that go with that.The closest thing to a Spanish Barb,are the kiger herd in Eastern Oregon.Everything else,is Ferall stock from old Ranch herds.Incidently,Mustang is a word derived from the spanish word Mustango,which translates to Estray.Better known as Ferall.
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I have three mustangs, two from the Pryor Mtn herd and one from the Mccullough peaks.. they are truly a breed apart super strong, with feet like iron... some tough mountain ponies for sure.. Hawk
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I love the wild horses, but they wont let you catch one you want. They will let you adopt one they catch for you, but your horse is picked through a lottery.
The problem is we have a couple of herds that are so inbred they are going blind. It isn't unusual to see one run head long into a cedar tree. The other herds are doing great, but the ranchers are still turning out stud horses to keep up the breeding. Justin
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Justin,
At the expense of sounding like im pickin on you,which is not the case.Just tryin to set the record straight.It is illegal to attemp to catch a feral horse on federall land.Falls under the harrasment laws.The lottery adoption,is only at sanctioned sattleite adoptions.You can go to a holding facility,and pick your horse from the herd.I loaded 3 of em today for adopters.Im assumeing you meant BLM wranglers,not Ranchers that Turn Studs loose.If it was Ranchers,they would be violateing severall laws.Even if it wasnt a violation,it would not be wise,to turn a domestic stud loose among the wild herd.First,a high dollar domestic stud,would not last long in the wild.It would either starve,not knowing how to range well,or would be killed or maimed to the point of haveing to be put down,by a wild stud.Wild Studs are pretty handy at fightin.they do it fer a livein.Beyond that,many wild herds are carriers of different transmitable diseases,that could be contracted by a domestic stud.All wild horses gathered by the BLM,are quarantined and tested ,before they are allowed to be put in the adoption program.
Mike,
Did you adopt your Horses from the Pryor facility?If so,did you deal,with a Ute NDN fella,by the name of Vic?Or a guy named Todd Nunn?
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All three mustangs I adopted were ones formerly adopted by folks who decided to get rid of them.. Two I adopted through the Reaching hands ranch in Powell Wyoming..the lady who had them couldn't afford them and neither had ever been so much as haltered....this pic is of Bronte, a six year old I got from them and trained... used some old Lakota training methods and was riding him inside of five days.. Great horse. ;D HAWK, a/ho
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Ya know what? If there are wolves in OR then they are definitely here in WA!!!
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Traxx, I know it is illegal to attempt to catch them. That is why I said they wont let you. ;) I have been to the adoptions/lottery also. I didn't mean the BLM, I meant ranchers. Some of these horses are on private property and these ranchers let their studs run on their property. I'm not saying they are high dollar, but they are well bred nice horses. I do know of the BLM turning out 1 $7000 stud also. :o I always thought the wild stud would abuse a turn out. I also though a herd would only have 1 mature stud, but I know of at least 2 herds with 2 studs. I cant explain it, but I have watched them from close up and it is true. There are 4 herds sharing the water hole and they will run off the other herds but both studs will stay with their heard and leave with it. It was a new one for me. Justin
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If these Wolves in the Picture I was sent by My Father are REAL....then these are no more Native American Wolves than are Sanbar Stags Native Deer....These were supposed to been shot in Wyoming in the Winter of 2008
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whollywuheh :o :o :o
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I've been up close and personal with several Grey Wolves, like within 30 yards. When they become aware of you they just turn and leisurely trot off
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I was Horseback one Winter Weekend as a Kid...riding down a Trail in the Keweenaw Peninsula in Upper Michigan with My oldest Sister behind Me....when a Grey came out of the Trees just 15 yards in front of my Appaloosa....The Horse Reared dropped Me on My Ass....and ran off....the Wolf looked at Me....and crossed the Trail into the Pines on the other side.....never even flinched.....I about Crapped in my Ski Pants I was wearing...and thats No S$%T........... O:)
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While hunting on the North fork of the Shoshone river back country I had several wolves come right into my camp. I had just gotten back to camp and was building a fire, my horse wasn't even unsaddled yet.. the wolves boldly came within yards of me to get to the horse.. he busted the highline and ran for the timber... the wolves in hot pursuit. I trailed them for all of that night and slept under a tree until the moon came up, then resumed the tracking. I found my horse miles away the next day during a snowstorm with the saddle under his belly, he was unhurt except for some cuts and a cinch burn, he was glad to see me. The wolves gave up the chase for reasons known only to wolves. The creator was watching out for my horse that time, and let me say those were some huge wolves I would guess they weighed in at close to two hundred and were in prime condition.They had no fear at all of me.. until I lit out after them.....Great pics of those Wyoming "Good" wolves Mike...Hawk
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Maybe the wolves can be sent here to South Florida to hunt snowbirds and leave the elk alone for awhile. I think maybe the flock needs to be thinned... ;) ;D
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thats not even Funny Parnell....My Aunt and Dad and Stepmother are on their way to the Kissimmee/St Cloud area as We Chat....to Spend a Month ans Spend a lot on Money in their Winter Home..... :o ;)
back to the Point of this Post....here is a little News I received today ....might help this Situation down the road...if it all goes through..........
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Greg R. Lawson (614) 888-4868 ext. 214
March 6, 2009 Sharon Hayden (614) 888-4868 ext. 226
U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance Foundation: Right Call on Wolf Delisting
(Columbus) – The U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance Foundation is pleased with today’s decision by Interior Secretary Ken Salazar to continue with the removal of the gray wolf from the Endangered Species Act (ESA).
“Secretary Salazar made the right call on delisting the gray wolf,” stated Rob Sexton, Vice President for Government Affairs at the U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance Foundation (USSAF). “This decision is based on sound science, not politics.”
As Salazar indicated in his announcement statement, "The recovery of the gray wolf throughout significant portions of its historic range is one of the great success stories of the Endangered Species Act.”
According to all scientific evidence, the gray wolf populations in the Northern Rockies and the western Great Lakes region have grown dramatically since their initial listing in 1974. Today, there are more than 5,500 wolves. 1,600 reside in the Rockies.
Previously, a coalition of environmental and animal rights groups filed lawsuits in 2008 to block the Bush administration’s then proposed delisting of 1,500 wolves in the Northern Rockies. The USSAF Wisconsin Bear Hunters' Association and a series of other conservation groups intervened in that case.
“Given the population growth, there were no valid reasons that states cannot resume management of the wolves,” said Scott Meyer, of Gleason Wisconsin, who joined USSAF as an intervener in the case.
The decision from Secretary Salazar comes in the face of intense lobbying by leading anti-hunting groups including the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS).
The U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance Foundation protects and defends America’s wildlife conservation programs and the pursuits – hunting, fishing and trapping – that generate the money to pay for them. The U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance Foundation is responsible for public education, legal defense and research. Its mission is accomplished through several distinct programs coordinated to provide the most complete defense capability possible. For more information about the U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance Foundation and its work, call (614) 888-4868 or visit its website, www.ussafoundation.org.
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Good news Mike :)
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i personally like wolfes and am glad to see them back in the wild etc. however if i was a rancher or something i could see why people dont like them if htey are killing your sheep or what not. but I really dont think its a hard problem to solve, alll you need is a dog. Not a little chump wimp sheep herding dog, but a real Livestock Guardian Dog. caucasion ovchartka should get the job done, easily capable of killing a wolf. And unlike most shepherd/herding dogs, this dog doesnt just have the instict to defend, but to actually attack and kill. Oh and they are damn near 200 lbs. Im quite dog educated,dogs kinda goes hand in hand with all the primitive stuff. anyways if anyone needs some help I can point you in the right direction. PM me.
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Sorry to burst your bubble bro, but there is not a dog alive that could last more than a few seconds against a wolf.. much less a pack of ten or more. Wolves hunt and run all day every day..they are solid muscle and kill 700 pound elk every day for a living...near the Yellowstone border a 185 pound sheep guarding dog was killed ,eaten and all they found was one hind foot..another lady Montana lost a germa shepherd and a siberian husky.. within seconds of one another to a lobo wolf in her yard.. Hawk
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i knew this would happen, being the dog expert that you are you could tell me. I used to work with dogs for a living. Theres a video on youtube of one of these dogs killing 2 wolves. now as for one taking on a whole pack of course not strenth in numbers. but usually a pack of wolfes will decide not to bother with the hassle and its not like you cant have more than one dog. Do some research on this if you dont believe me, molosserdogs.com is a good start. anyways the point being, dogs were bred specificially for this purpose, and if you have 2 or 3 of the right dogs, wolves shouldnt be much of a problem.
http://molosserdogs.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5620
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://bpg.sytes.net/nagazi/images/Image/Other/Caucasian_Ovcharka_sheep_killed_wolf.jpg&imgrefurl=http://bpg.sytes.net/nagazi/default.asp%3Fbpgpid%3D26%26pg%3D1&usg=__m9smZZdl2pdupuEcAu4Et6QlgN0=&h=472&w=549&sz=79&hl=en&start=7&tbnid=SXG56RY3JdDCfM:&tbnh=114&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3DVolkodav%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
dog killing 2 wolves
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&v=3170gvlnPwU&feature=related
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heres a vid of a dogo vs puma, there was a better one but I cant seem to find it.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ak.static.dailymotion.com/dyn/preview/160x120/303607.jpg&imgrefurl=http://video.filestube.com/d/dogo%2Bvs%2Bpuma&usg=__WcDSBasAQuxocPw9l_rdX6F2wd8=&h=120&w=160&sz=6&hl=en&start=10&um=1&tbnid=YC-qTmn7S1zpxM:&tbnh=74&tbnw=98&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddogo%2Bvs%2Bpuma%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1%26ie%3DUTF-8
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Wow I guess you are an expert.. :o why don't you come and get some of the wolves In my backyard and keep them in yours.. then you can tell the rest of the world how cool they are..Hawk
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I've got the cure for wolves, its sitting in the gun cabinet ;D A good wolf is a dead wolf, not a politically correct statement but non the less its pretty much how I feel.
Just curious cawkazn but where do you live? Would it happen to be somewhere that wolves roam?
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nope, but i know enough about dogs to know which breeds are capable of taking one out. repeat one, not a pack. and like i siad before its not like you cant have more than one dog. yes wolves are very strong and capapble of killing dogs, even the dogs i mentioned here. and it happens, but again thats what the dogs were bred for and if you had a couple of them, most wolves would probably decide not to go through all of the trouble, unless they had a large pack. did you guys bother clicking any of the links? im guessing not. also, if a dogo can take out a puma, it should be able to take out a wolf.
re-read your statement from earlier, and I agree. a siberian husky and a german shepherd stand no chance against a wolf. which is why they were killed like you said. and even a 185 lbs dog by itself, but trust me there are some bad ass dogs out there capable of getting the job done.
if its 1 dog vs several wolves, it will probably end up something like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&v=fAoszVLRP6U&NR=1
heres the better vid of the dogo argentino against the puma, now you cant tell me that you dont think one of these guys would give a wolf a run for its money? click the 2nd one down, titled: dogo ve puma
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=dogo+vs+puma&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#
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And there lies the problem.Yer gonna hafta have a pack of those dogs to keep the wolves at bay.The wolves in this country,are running in large packs.Thats what happens when they are turned loose,with no predators and laws to keep management from happening.Im not gonna type out a bio of myself or my qualifications,but will say,that my experience with wolves,is enough to know without a doubt,that they are infact,the most efficient killing machines out there.Take away a management plan,of checks and balances,and things will become one sided.Without permitted management and hunting,to balance their numbers,they will become an increaseing problem,just like the Black bears in Ca and Nj and the mountain lion in Ca.Soon,they loose respect of humans and become severely dangerous.This is a new day and time.Rampant wolf populations,and Modern Man,CANNOT co exist ,Period!!Anybody who thinks differently,is liveing in Disneyworld,and needs a serious reality check.Incidently,there have been severall,who were formerly,against wolf delisting,that have seen the evidence,and have changed their minds.Even tourist,in Yellowstone are seeing the difference,and in some cases,have seen firsthand,that Natures Reality,is not what they thought it was.Unfortuneately,by the time,the court cases and red tape are passed,it may be too late.the damage may be done,to the point of not being able to rectify it for some time,or in some cases,ever.For some involved,thats exactly as they have it planned.They will Sacrifice,herd numbers and health,of some species,to cater to their political agendas,all the while,claiming the interest of wildlife,as their concern.
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The thing with Wolves is that unlike Dogs they have no interest in fighting. For them it's all about survival and you don't survive very well when you are severely injured. Put those Dogs out to fend for themselves and the tables would turn pretty fast. Also some of those Dogs were protected with collars, not fair
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Around here the wolves have become so territorial, they are killing stock dogs.. going out of their way to kill them if the dog is in their hunting territory...even mountain lion hunters are refusing to run cats because the wolves are hearing the braying of the dogs and killing them before the houndsmen can get to their dogs..a friend of mine on the wood river had his horse killed in the corral fifty yards from the house.. the wolves chewed the hind end out of the live animal and left it to die.. looked like a massacre inside the corral. the poor horse bled out in the night.. these predators are not acting like wild wolves.. they are acting like dogs gone wild... no real family structure like most wild wolves.... the last pack that was killed here for slaying four cattle in one day, was all males weighing near two hundred pounds each... I will say I love the idea of wolves and am a firm believer in the spiritual aspects of native lore concerning their position in this great circle of life.. but these wolves are nothing more than government sponsored terrorists.. who left unchecked will decimate our elk herds.. Hawk a/ho
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The thing with Wolves is that unlike Dogs they have no interest in fighting. For them it's all about survival and you don't survive very well when you are severely injured. Put those Dogs out to fend for themselves and the tables would turn pretty fast. Also some of those Dogs were protected with collars, not fair
yeah thats precisely my point, the wolves have no interest in fighting, and if you had a small pack of those dogs, the wolves would probably just look elsewhere for food rather than go through all the trouble and risk of getting injured unless they had a very large pack. And it doesnt have to be fair, you can have large spiked protected collars on your dogs, they also make a sort of body armour for them as well, usually used on hog dogs. a pack on 1 dog is not fair.
i think one of these guys could do it, presa canario, males are around 150 lbs.
http://www.sanderskennels.com/02-19-05%20060%20presa%20canario.jpg
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Sounds to me like you are certain of the fact that a dog could get the job done .. so I guess you could bring a few of those KILLERS over here to northwest Wyoming and fix our wolf problem for us... ;D I am not a gambling man by any means, but would lay my money down on a wolf everytime.. I have seen the aftermath of dozens of wolf kills.. Even grizzlies will think twise before tangling with them.. unless they are real hungry ;) If you would like some real info concerning the problem out here... pm me and I will gladly enlighten you to the REAL story of what is going on. Hawk a/ho
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Cawkazn,
I watched the links that you posted and can understand that there are certainly a "few" cases where a dog or especially "several" could defend livestock from wolves. However just as your video link shows there is almost always loss of livestock. At best I think it's a grander romantic thought of the great guard dog defending his master and herd. But in reality I would have to say that facts are that it's dog against dog and in the case of the wolves, they are forced to live out survival everyday. Anytime the odds are stacked with numbers the wolves will win.
Even if you are able to guard the livestock, the elk and deer herds are still being decimated when the wolves aren't kept in check. Yes they have the right to exist just as humans do but as with all things balance and management is wise. Unfortunately that is not what happens most of the time.
It's one thing to have a theory of how it could work. However I put more credit and validity on what people like Hawkbow and others say that I know deal with "real life" scenarios. As others have stated, Yellowstone is a great example of what will happen if they are left unmanaged.
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Appears that the wolf is once again going to be delisted in many states. If this is accurate.
http://www.wisconsinagconnection.com/story-state.php?Id=293&yr=2009
http://phoenix.fanster.com/2009/03/09/us-sportsmen%E2%80%99s-alliance-foundation-right-call-on-wolf-delisting/
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Told Ya back a Page or two.....Help was on the Way.........and it now is being Publicly Stated.......... :D
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delisted everywhere but here :'(..
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delisted everywhere but here :'(..
Here is what they have to say about Wyoming
Service decided to delist the wolf in Idaho and Montana because they have approved state wolf management plans in place that will ensure the conservation of the species in the future.
At the same time, the Service determined wolves in Wyoming would still be listed under the Act because Wyoming’s current state law and wolf management plan are not sufficient to conserve its portion of northern Rocky Mountain wolf population.
The northern Rocky Mountain Distinct Population Segment includes all of Montana, Idaho and Wyoming, the eastern one-third of Washington and Oregon, and a small part of north-central Utah. The minimum recovery goal for wolves in the northern Rocky Mountains is at least 30 breeding pairs and at least 300 wolves for at least three consecutive years, a goal that was attained in 2002 and has been exceeded every year since. There are currently about 95 breeding pairs and 1,600 wolves in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming.
The Service believes that with approved state management plans in place in Montana and Idaho, all threats to the wolf population will be sufficiently reduced or eliminated in those states. Montana and Idaho will always manage for more than 15 breeding pairs and 150 wolves per state and their target population level is about 400 wolves in Montana and 500 in Idaho.
As a result of a Montana United States District Court decision on July 18, 2008, the Service reexamined Wyoming law, its management plans and implementing regulations. While the Service has approved wolf management plans in Montana and Idaho, it has determined that Wyoming’s state law and wolf management plan are not sufficient to conserve Wyoming’s portion of a recovered northern Rocky Mountain wolf population. Therefore, even though Wyoming is included in the northern Rocky Mountain District Population Segment, the subpopulation of gray wolves in Wyoming is not being removed from protection of the Endangered Species Act.
Continued management under the Endangered Species Act by the Service will ensure that wolves in Wyoming will be conserved. Acting U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Director Rowan Gould said the Service will continue to work with the State of Wyoming in developing its state regulatory framework so that the state can continue to maintain its share of a recovered northern Rocky Mountain population. Once adequate state regulatory mechanisms are in place, the Service could propose removing the Act’s protections for wolves in Wyoming. National parks and the Wind River Reservation in Wyoming already have adequate regulatory mechanisms in place to conserve wolves. However, at this time, wolves will remain protected as a nonessential, experimental population under the ESA throughout the state, including within the boundaries of the Wind River Reservation and national park and refuge units.
So it is still possible that in the Near Future even Wyoming will be Delisted....lets Hope that they come up with a Package that will satisfy the Feds....and delist them....
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I just have to add this to the dogo versus puma video, which is pretty sick work by the way. You can tell that the Puma has been de-clawed. A Puma will use it's hind leg claws to disembowel and the one on that video is trying to use them but nothing is happening.
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Destructo, I only hope that the feds will allow the people of Wyoming to dictate where the wolves can be shot this time.. last time they put three of the worst packs who were praying on livestock and wintering ek herds in a safe zone .. no hunting wolves on that side of the divide >:( and made it where wolves who were staying in the high country could be hunted and shot by idiots on snowmobiles.. Marc, I agree those videos were sick.. I think some people would do anything to an animal for the sport of it.. no honor or integrity when it comes to that kind of people... Hawk a/ho