Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: whitewoodshunter on February 26, 2009, 08:00:06 pm
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I am going to be starting on a bamboo backed IPE bow and was wonder what, if anything, I needed to clean the Ipe back with before I glue on the bamboo? the glue will be TB3
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Ipe is a pretty oily wood. I would use acetone to degrease it. Others might have a better solution(Pun intended)
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i would do as Pat said,use acetone.
nice pun Pat :D
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as pat said use acetone iv done over 200 all with tb3 and i use acetone let it dry a while and do it agin no plms brock
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Use acetone or naptha. Do it right before you glue. The oils return to the surface fairly quickly. if you degrease it like the day before it will have no effect. If you dont clean it good you can pull the pieces apart easily if you use tite bond3.
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Should the back be sanded with fine sandpaper after the the acetone dries? And would Lacquer thinner from a body shop work?( I work in a body shop)
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If using tb3 I would sand it dead flat with 50 or 80 grit then use the acetone. You dont have to wait more than 2 minutes for the acetone to flash off. no fine sandpaper and no sanding after you clean it.
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I have had real good luck with Urac and actone.....mix the Urac.....degreased with acetone....slap it together and wrap it with strips of inner tube.....
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I've had a couple of problems with glueing ipe, I read on the internet (can't remember which site) that cellulose thinner works for degreasing it but my bamboo backing just popped off straight out of the form.
The glue I'm using is called Resintite (like the cascamite that bowyers apparently used to use), I've ordered some Urac and I've seen bows made with this glue that haven't been degreased at all that seem to work fine but should I be safe and do it anyway? And does the cellulose thinner actually work?
Thanks for your help
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I glued on 2 staves without degreasing, and both are doing fine, seems to hold very firmly. one if them is the bbi pyramid I posted here.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,11595.0.html
but degreasing is really smart, acetone will do the job perfectly.
Nick
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I think it depends on the board. Some is really oily and you can peal the glue right off if you dont clean it.
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why take the chance of having an adhesion failure,just clean with acetone and dont worry
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Thanks, does anyone know where to find acetone in England? It's nail polish remover right? Would they have it in B&Q?
Again, thanks for the help
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Muina, acetone is also used for paint thinning and cleanup. Try any local hardware store and you should find some on the shelf right next to the mineral spirits and other paint thinner.
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I tried in all the hardware stores near me, none of them had it and only one of them had heard of it. I'll see if I can get some off the net unless anyone can advise me? I'm in the North of England (Hull) so if anyone knows of anywhere nearby that sells it.
Thanks
P.S. Could anyone tell me anywhere to buy Urac 185 in England? I've had to order some from MissouriTrading and I'm still waiting for their e-mail about a different delivery price.
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I dont think it has to be acetone thats just what I use. I think denatured alcohol or naptha or any cleaner that evaporates fast would work.
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I just wipe it down sometimes with a moist paper towel and dry it then glue it up. Bill, the piece you are getting isn't oily at all, and I'd just use it as is..The 100# bow made from the same board is doing just fine glued up like this.. ;)
Rich-
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Thanks for all the information, I looked at the White Spirit in my garage and that contains Naptha so I'm gonna go ahead and try that on a bit of scrap (i may have bought a lot of Ipe but I'm not prepared to experiment on a good piece, it took me nearly a year to find somewhere that sold it cheap enough!).
Again, thanks so much for all the information, I hope to be able to contribute equally in the near future
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I've made many bamboo and hickory backed ipe bows, and I've used TB3 for all, and degreased with aclcohol. No problems or failures. Don't touch the degreased surface after with anything (including your hands), and wait for the alcohol to evaporate, and glue away.
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I've used Acetone, brake cleaner and oven cleaner. They all work.Wood like Rich is talking about I've washed down with dish soap and water.
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I went to get some acetone for cleaning ipe for a local boatyard, it was a silly price and a silly quantity so I bought a bottle of really cheap nail varnish remover for less than £1. It's basically acetone and does the job just fine. Just go into the local cheap cosmetics store and don't be embarassed! The glue I use keeps changing its trade name here but I think stateside it is sold as resorcinol. Had no problems with it at all, made 4 ipe and boo bows this way. No signs of glue failure.
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Thanks for sharing, what names has the glue you're using gone under before? I might recognise it and I may be able to ask around for it (there's a guy at my local 'Arnold Lavers' that seems to be a glue expert, he'll probably know).
I glued up a straight longbow stave (Ash for the backing) using a different board of Ipe, it seems to have glued fine but I haven't actually put any tension on the limbs yet. I degreased with White Spirit until the cloth stopped getting a brown colour on it which I assume was the wood's oils? Anywho, my reflex deflex stave that I glued using the same method delammed - again - but this time cracked the Ipe because I'd left it on a wall as soon as I heard the creaking. I don't think this glue can cope with the sheer strength of the Ipe.
Thanks very much for all your help
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I bought a bottle of really cheap nail varnish remover for less than £1. It's basically acetone and does the job just fine. Just go into the local cheap cosmetics store and don't be embarassed!
In such a cosmetics store, I've also found acetone in the Netherlands. I found it in the cleaning products section. There was hydrogen peroxide, alcohol 70%, alcohol 97% and acetone right next to each other. It was fairly expensive (around 2 euros for 75 mL) and there was only one store I found it in. I didn't buy is, because I use denatured alcohol (the blue stuff you use for small burners) instead. That is way cheaper, and works just as well I think. Denatured alcohol is found in many hardware stores, even in supermarkets in my country.
When degreasing a wood with any form of liquid degreaser, you need to use a LOT of liquid. You want the oils to mix with the degreaser, and then removed. Myself, I use a cotton cloth drenched in alcohol. After degreasing ipé with alcohol, you will see the wood has turned much lighter in color. The liquid really has removed the coloring agents.
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Ah, that's what denatured alcohol is - methylated spirits. I've got loads of that, it's really cheap from B&Q!
I still think the glue's not strong enough to cope with a r/d ipe stave though, the longbow went through early tillering stages perfectly (I was really lucky and got almost perfect tiller straight off too :P) it's pulling 46# @ 14" on half brace so it's a little heavy but I knew I was going to underestimate the wood somewhat.
I'm gonna check out that resorcinol glue seeing as I know that's been tried and tested.
Wish me luck finding it
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Just did a little bit of research on this resorcinol stuff, and I've found two likely candidates. They're both a type of resorcinol called 'Cascophen', I would greatly appreciate it if somebody would take a look at the two glues and let me know if they are the sort of thing I need to be looking for :)
http://www.protecdirect.co.uk/Extrarez-Adhesives/Extraphen-Water-Resistant-Glue.htm (http://www.protecdirect.co.uk/Extrarez-Adhesives/Extraphen-Water-Resistant-Glue.htm)
http://www.pvrdirect.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?catref=CASCOPHEN&gclid=CIyll_z_jJkCFQulQwod4RZvmw (http://www.pvrdirect.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?catref=CASCOPHEN&gclid=CIyll_z_jJkCFQulQwod4RZvmw)
Thanks
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Hi Muina,
I'm in the UK too. I bought my acetone from a car body spray shop, in a 5 gall tin, and decant it into smaller tin-topped glass jars (recycled pasta sauce jars!). Not very expensive, but make sure you store it carefully, and try to keep it off your skin. I have used it very successfully with Extraphen when backing Ipe with bamboo, and when backing osage with bamboo. I have also used it successfully with hickory backing on Ipe and ERC without failure so far.
Good luck !
//Bob
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Thanks Bob, I'll order some as soon as I wake up in the morning. It's much needed now as well, after a long day of trying to get the bottom tip overlay to stick (My 6th try's glueing as I type) I've ended up using the resintite and a surprising amount of Meths for a 2" offcut of Ipe.
Thanks again for everyone's help, I'll see if I can get some pictures up of the finished bows (longbow and R/D) when they're done :D