Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Pat B on February 28, 2009, 03:34:10 pm
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I am attempting to make a primitive fishing arrow...but for real big fish. I read somewhere about a toggle type harpoon head the Eskimos used for walrus, wales and seals. I want to make this type head but for a bow shot arrow and not a harpoon. I'm starting off with a green sourwood shoot that I have stripped the bark off and am drying under my wood stove. For the head I am using a leg bone of a deer with each end sawn off at a sharp angle. When shot into the fish, the head and shaft separate. The head has cordage attached to it's center and when the fish struggles the head "toggles" inside to prevent from pulling out.
What I am looking for is a good description(with pics if possible) of a toggle type head, how and where to attach the cordage and what to use for cordage? I believe the Eskimos used sinew cordage but I would prefer something less susceptible to moisture. I probably only need about 3' of strong cordage for the head. Heavy bow fishing line will be used beyond that.
Below are a few beginning pics...
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Well Pat ....I hope that this will help you out a little on designing them....I drew this Up ....so don't laugh at the Quality!!! They seem to be pretty basic...3 piece design...with a Tip wrapped with Cordage....floating Shaft with a Metal Ring to Hold the Cordage....and the Spear itself with the Cordage tied off to it securely....should not be too hard...especially for a Craftsman of your Quality ...to make one that will work great on a Cane Arrow..... Good Luck.....and remember where you got the Info............ >:D :D
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Thanks Mike. I figured you'd have a suggestion. ;) I'll play with your design and see how it works out.
This is going to be an ongoing thread as I work all the bugs out to a working toggle type fish arrow. I'll post pics as I go.
This fish arrow is going to be used(hopefully) on a large alligator gar if that makes a difference...I mean BBBIG! :o
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Cool project. I can't wait to see pics. of the gar that you take with those arras.
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Here is one I own .It is ivory .The slit at the top I think is for a flint or metal point ,the round hole for the line. The rectangular groove is for the foreshaft ,and the narrow slits are for lashing the foreshaft on . My guesses anyhow.
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Very cool Ralph. You guys are getting my wheels turning.
Anymore ideas out there?
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just from a google search...for Inuit Harpoon head
http://pubs.aina.ucalgary.ca/arctic/Arctic42-1-80.pdf
http://www.nativeaccess.com/ancestral/inuitharp1.html
http://books.google.ca/books?id=BTD9liti-oQC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=harpoon+toggling&source=bl&ots=Sly3iM_rxn&sig=0qHeGsy0ugcDEMxFuxE9IcDdlD0&hl=en&ei=hdWqSZekHciVngfRldD0Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA95,M1
http://www.mnh.si.edu/arctic/features/croads/ekven10.html
just a sampling.
D
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Thanks a bunch, D. I hadn't gotten top Google yet. I will now!
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Pat, if it is a " Big " One, your arrow head, better very hard, and sharp! ;) The alligator gar, has a bony scale, and the larger ones, were used as arrow heads, When you look at one it looks just like an arrow head, and very hard. When I was in my early teens, I used to pass the time gigging them, no problems with the two footers, but I hit one once, that was about 3 1/2 to 4 ft. long, and the gig bounced right of of it, and only removed a scale. Those toothy critters get to 6-7 ft. in length. Years ago, in the mid to late fifties, and early sixties, they used to dive for them down here in the Kissimmee river, and shoot them with spear guns. If you are ever near a craft store, ask them if they have gar scales. You will see what I mean that they look just like arrow heads. Also I know some people down here who eat them. The swear that they are delicious. I know that they have nice white meat. I used to use them for bait, when I was a kid. I would cut off the head, and then make a slice back down the back, to the spiral pattern in the skin, and then just unwind the skin, like a biscuit can, and there it is, nice white meat. Haven't tried eating one myself, but I have had a few other people tell me it is good. 8)
Wayne
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I Scuba Dive...and was diving in the Stilling Basin here at Lake Meridith on the lea side of the Dam in the deep water at the Spill Gates....Me and a Buddy were Spear Fishing....He had a Bungee Spear Pole...and I had my Speargun that had a 30 inch Bolt with a 20 foot Nylon Lanyard hooked to it and My wrist....well I seen movement down below Me against a big piece of Rock....covered in Algae....I seen Gills pumping....so I aimed about 5-6 inches behind the Gills and Let Her Rip.....well the Bottom come to life....and all of the Silt and Muck stirred up....I couldn't see crap....and all of a sudden I was wrenched forward hard enough to pop my Shoulder and send shooting pains down my Side ....I looked in front of Me....The Fish I shot was about 4.5-5 foot long and as big around as My 100 cubic foot Scuba Tank........and He was pulling me through the Water like I was nothing...I couldn't get the Lanyard off My Wrist ...I was freaking out and going for My Knife...when the Spear just fell out of this Monster Flathead....and He just kept swimming away....and good riddance too!!! I can only guess that when I hit Him....He was laying on the Bottom,...and the Spear went through but hit the rock behind Him and the Toggle didn't open up and secure the Bolt....man I was never so glad to lose a Fish in my Life!!!! ;D
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I e-mailed Curtis Keller from Texas. He has "hunted" these monsters in the past and I wanted his input. He pretty much discouraged me about attempting this with a primitive head. He has shot(at) the big ones(over 100#) and has had an aluminum covered fiberglass arrow with steel "gar fishing" head and a 75# bow and had the arrow bounce off of its back. :o
I will still play with the head to see what I come up with. I will send it to Curt to test...if he thinks it will be worthwhile.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained!
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They are tough critters, and the armor plating that their scales provide is pretty amazing. something else. I doubt that the native americans, speared, or harpooned them. If so, they must have had one hell of an arm, and point. ;D You don't have to go paleo, you know, you could go, oh, pre 1700's, with an iron point...... ;)
Wayne
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Wayne, I'm sure I could make a modern point or a post industrial age point that would work on one of these guys. My hopes were that I could do it primitive. I have been studying the Eskimos harpoon heads and they are quite impressive and they are dealing with animals that weigh in at a ton or more in some cases. The difference being their quarry are all soft bodied mammals.
Like I said, I'll keep playing with the idea and see where it takes me.
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I would think the Indians, probably netted the gars, but I could be wrong. By all means, do keep at it. I am sure there must be a way, to do this. Maybe it is the angle of attack? I would like to hear of your progress. I know what you mean, by trying to do it all primitive. It would be cool to try to solve a problem with only the natural resources at hand. Modern people seem to have this notion that prehistoric man was a nit wit. When in fact they were quite ingenious, and skillful. If not, we would not be here. Look at what they had to go through to survive. A little more modern, but nonetheless a point to be made, is that the Egyptians, could make a gold leaf so thin, that you could actually see through it enough to read a newspaper. We can't do that today, with all of our technology, and " Superior " intelligence ! I by no means, meant to stop trying to get a large gar by strictly primitive means. How about the toggle idea, with a small medium thickness, point, so it would have a chance of going in between the scales, and or sliding in under a scale, and into the body of the fish? Or a small triangular point, like the Danish used to Peirce armor. Claude Van Order made some, that were pretty neat. In fact I think Eddie (Mullet) used one on a hog, and it went right through the skull, one shot, one kill ;)........sort of a stone bodkin......but, by all means, keep at it. We can all benefit from what you come up with, both failures, and successes. ;) Carry on sir. :)
Wayne
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I can't wait to here how this turns out. I think it's a worthy endeavor.
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Wayne, I was thinking about Eddie's "bodkin" pig point. I have 2 of them here. That would be added to the front of the head body. Eskimos used ivory for the body. The deer leg bone broke while I was "adjusting" it. ::)
I think the angle of the shot will be important. I believe you have to try to get under the scales and from the rear or quartering away. I've never seen an alligator gar but have heard stories from my uncles that grew up in Louisiana and Arkansas.
Yeh Hedge, me too. We will see how worthy. ;D
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One of the first animals I ever took with a bow was an
alligator gar. I took my wheelie with me on a crappy fishing trip to Lake Weis. I couple gars were finning near the shoreline. I was a lucky shot at the skinny 3 inch body at about 30 yards. The gar was only 26". I quickly learned that once you arrow the gar, you have another problem--how to get him off the arrow once you get him to the boat. haha Even on this small one it beak full of the razor sharp teeth is quite scary. I managed to slide him to the middle of the shaft, unscrew the fishing point, then slide him into the live well.
Another time a friend and I were fishing below the spillway of Barren River Reservor. The fishing was slow, so we went up a little feeder creek. Their were literally 100's of gar in this little creek. Since nothing else was biting, I tied a steel leader to the spider wire on my casting rod. I removed a treble hook from one of my lures and hooked up a minnow. I flipped the minnow right across the nose of a gar. He followed it down as it dropped and took it. I knew it would take him awhile to munch the minnow down from the boney nose to the softer tissue of his mouth. I pushed the release on the reel and let him take all the line he wanted. Half an adult beverage later, I reeled up yards and yards of slack line and set the hook HARD. The gar exploded to the surface like a marlin 70 or 80 yards from the boat. It was a hoot landing him. He was small 28 inches maybe. I caught another the same way. It was a bit bigger.
Then I decided we needed to fine a 40 incher or bigger. We trolled around for a bit and found us a monster gar. It a lot longer than my little 36 inche emergency boat paddle. I flipped the minnow rig across his beak and handed the pole to my friend and opened another adult beverage. We it was half consumed, I instructed Tom to reel up the slack until he felt the fish, point the rod tip to the water and jerk hard all the way across the bow of the boat. Fifteen minutes later, Tom had the gar to the boat.
Now, unhooking those small gar with the needle nose pliers was no concern to me. But, I didn't want to get my hand that close to this monster. I grab the boat paddle and attempted to smack him across the head. Well, I snapped the line and the gar swam away. haha haha
My point being to this long story is, have a plan to deal with a monster gar once you get him to the boat. :)
correction: these were long nose gar not alligator gar. sorry
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Bang! Problem solved. ;D Like with sharks. ;)
Wayne
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el d, those flathead cats are pure power. i grew up jugging for them near my home and i've seen some huge ones, that got away. the biggest i've ever hooked was at least six foot long. he pulled off after trying to land him for over two hours. we never could get the net over his head.
pat, another problem you may have with gar is with their scales cutting your line. i've had their scales cut through 800lb test braided nylon string on pass through shots. come down in april or may and we'll try for some long nose gar and carp. i'm hoping to take a carp with a primitive set up this spring.
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Curtis Keller from Texas is going to be my test pilot and he is sending me a piece of skin with the scales intact so I can plan my strategy. He has warned me about the pitfalls to my brainstorm but has encouraged me to keep trying. It may not be practical to try it 100% primitive. If I can make the head primitive(at least primitive style), that would satisfy me.
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Mechslasher, those cats do get BIG !! Imagine someone trying to noodle one of those big boys! It would be them that gets pulled in. My Brother dated a Girl in Tennessee, and her father used to work on the TVA Dam, and he said the biggest problem with building it was keeping divers, to clear the intakes. He said after a couple of dives, they would quit, saying that they were not going to work around catfish bigger than they were! :o Can you imagine the Fish Fry you could have with one of them? !! That would be something to take to the Classic! ;D ;D ;D
Wayne
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I just received a few pieces of skin with scales attached in the mail from Curtis.... :o :o :o
I may have to rethink this whole process. ::)
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Wonder what the gill flaps like ? Maybe an arrow could go thru it more easy.Don't know,just wonder. Frank
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Good point......no pun intended, Fishoonah ;D
Wayne