Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Kenny H on March 11, 2009, 10:17:16 pm
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Hey guys I wont be able to sleep tonight cause I'm gonna go cut some osage in the morning. I have a couple questions before I go though. I have a couple gallons of latex paint I planned to seal the split staves with. Do you think this will be ok to use or do I need to use something better? I have went back the last couple of weeks and reread huntin the osage bow(first 3 chapters) several times in prep. of this day. I'm worried I'm gonna screw them up. :) I haven't split any staves at all yet so this will be new to me. Any last words of advice before I get at it in the morning would greatly be appreciated. ;D Thank you all in advance Kenny
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Advice.... Get plenty of sleep, your going to work harder than you think. ;D
I have used latex paint before, it works fine. But...... I prefer to use white glue. Latex paint takes a couple of hours to dry. If you put it in your truck still tacky you will not be happy. If you do drip wood glue in your truck it washes right out. ;)
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I like shellac for the ends, or Thoroseal. They both dry really quick and dry clear, so you can see the rings. Just do a few coats of either.
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Kenny, I like to use shellac to seal my staves. Alot easier to see the rings later.They tell me that paint will work, I have just never used it.
Before you cut, Look for catfaces and any limbs,and see what you can get from the tree before you fell it.Lay on the ground and look up the tree.Is the bark straight,does it have any twist. How big is the flares at the ground,and how high off the ground do I need to cut, and still get enough length.
You plan of splitting in the field or at home? Whichever, just study the log before you split it,try to read the grain. So much more to staveing out a log than just whacking on wedges.
Just use common sense and be mindful before you set a wedge.
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I'm pretty sure we are gonna split them where we are. I might try to get a can or two of shellac but I am trying to save money cause I am layed off from work and I have some extra paint sittin around. Gotta save what I have for Pappy's place. ;D Once I wedge both sides will it kinda pop out where it should? I figure that I can take a little off when they are ready to get rid of the paint I put on when the staves are ready. Should I debark them right away or can they wait?
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Start your wedge on the end grain,sink it in well and then start another wedge on the bark in the split.Just keep working down the stave, I wedge where needed,but generally every 8-10 ".You'll know after you get started.I also take a sharp hatchet and cut those pesky lil hangers between wedges.It helps to keep the split running straight.
No need to wedge both sides unless you get a real tough or big log,most will split out from one side.
Also no need to debark in the field. You can do that after you get them home.
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Do NOT debark it in the field. Osage should be cured with the bark on or remove the bark and sapwood and seal the back.
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I like to drive a single bit ax in them to get the split started. Then follow up with wedges. Once you get them busted in half you'll have a very clear idea as to how the grain's gonna run.
If you take the bark off, it would be wise to remove all the sapwood too. If you don't, you'll be inviting cracks. Some leave the sapwood on, but every time I have... they eventually cracked.
If you have trouble with your wedges jumping out... Light taps, instead of heavy blows will keep it in the wood. ;)
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Also, If you cut any small ones only big enough for two halves. Split them with all the tension wood on one side and all the compression wood on the other. If you split them 90 degrees from that, both sides usually dry with a sideways bend. where as if you cut them the other way, one or both will draw into a reflex.
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Lots of good advice here,be prepaired for some work, Its worth it but is is hard work.It is a lot easier if you have a little help.The spiltting can wear you down so pace yuorsels,And for sure be careful falling the tree,they can do some crazy things.Good luck. :)
Pappy
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I've cut allot of sage and can say its dangerous work.. Osage usually grows close together and the limbs sorta lock together.. they usually don't fall after you cut them.. i have had to hold my chainsaw over my head and cut them high to get the log.
also take a sample cut to check the rings. if you only cut a lil nick in a tree just enough to see the rings and there not very good you don't have to fell that tree and it should recover from the test cut.
take a file to sharpen you chain.. that Osage will put a hurten on your chain.
take a good axe.. when you cut the high don't cut the all the way through get them close and finish it off with your axe.. thats a little safer.
also some sorta shoulder pad is a good idea. after you carry out a few your shoulders will get torn up.
i waited till i got them home to seal the ends. i used paint.
Hope this helps.. just be carefull. Good Luck and take pics :)
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Takin the kids to school and goin cuttin! ;D Ill get some pics today and try and post them later. Thanks for all the advice guys. Kenny
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I hope you ate a BIG breakfast ! ;D
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Like Leapingbear said, osage likes to lock together and only fall half way to the ground sometimes. I once had one hanging, and pulled and pulled until a section came down and cracked me in the head. Nearly knocked me out. Safety first with this stuff! Be prepared to get the workout of a lifetime! Last time I cut osage I was 26, and in great shape and the next morning I felt like I had been run over by a truck. Stock up on some advil and send us some pictures!
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Well, if you have already left to go get it than this advise will be late but hopefully it will help. I agree harvesting osage is hard work, but worth it. Very good advise given.
Timo said " Before you cut, Look for catfaces and any limbs,and see what you can get from the tree before you fell it.Lay on the ground and look up the tree.Is the bark straight,does it have any twist." Very important advise here. You don't want to mess with it if its too twisty. I recommend being pesimistic rather than optomistic when it comes to evaluating a tree. Its alot of work and I won't need anymore firewood do you?
I also will select a tree that I can clear a good drop zone for so that I minimize getting hung up. I also try and position my splits to put most of the flaws on the outside edge of a stave ( for later removal when roughing out the bow. I have found that you can get mroe usable wood that way if you can read the grain of where it will split and then try to split it to minimize the effects of the flaws.
I like to start my splits with a small, durable handax ( Walmart sporting goods $6) that I can beat on with my sledge with out caring whether I am mushrooming the end. I have found that starting with a wedge doe'snt work as well and that the thinner blade gets started easier. Once thats started I just leap frog with my wedges down the stave until done. I like to seal my ends with shellac but I am sure you can use what you have available. Yhe thing about painting the ends is its hard to see the rings when you get ready to select a stave and want to chase a ring. You might have to cut off the end to get started and thats an extra step later that I try to avoid. Hope this helps and good harvesting. Danny
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I'm with sawflier on the sapwood. Time well spent taking it off green and sealing the back of the log than trying to take it off dry with a drawknife. Don't get try to split too many staves out of a log just yet, you'll end up with a lot of scrap if you get too greedy. Safety and then some more safety and you'll still end up up with some battle wounds. Good luck and have fun ;)
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I didn't know if I was gonna get the pics up tonight but I did get pics of two of the staves on top cause I brought them in my house and took the pics. Will post some tomorrow when its daytime of all we cut today. I hope we did this right. I'm not sure because it wasn't hard at all. The wood split very easy, we didn't cut any 30" trees though, but enough for some bows. We wanted to make sure we was doing this correctly before we cut any more. Anyway here are two of them tell me what you think please. ;D
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more pics
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cant wait to get started, even if we did it wrong it was good practice,didnt cost nuthin and it was a pretty fun day ;D
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I'm gonna debark and take off the sap wood tomorrow. I'm gonna go buy some spray shellac in the morning to spray the staves with when I'm done. Would it be ok to put them in a heat box soon? How long do I have to wait? more pics tomorrow!
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Nice wood,I wouldn't put it in the hot box to quick .I would give it a month or so to dry out some.
Even sealed if you try and dry it to quick it will check. :) Green Osage can't be rushed as much as some white wood.You have to be careful. :)
Pappy
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Looks like ya got it done. Good for you. Not to burst your bubble, and I don't know what kind,or how much wood you have to pick from, but I would have walked by those trees. There is straighter/cleaner wood out there.( unless ya want snake wood) :) You have your work cut out for ya now buddy! :) It'll be fun. Looks like ya got some big rings?
As for the shellac. Never used the spray before, but figure it won't be as good as what comes from a regular can. Probably cost more, but not sure. I'd check first. Also check the manufacture date,as it does have a shelf life. I wouldn't buy anything over a year old.
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I'm with Timo on the canned shallac. I don't think the spray is as good a vaue. The brush on kind will allow you to process more staves for less money.It will last longer if you don't buy the spay and you can put it on heavier as well to provide a thicker moisture barrier. I have even been thinking about buying the flakes and mixing it myself so it will last even longer, but I haven't getten motivated to locate a good source yet. I think I give $9 a pint a Lowes for mine. I think Bullseye is the brand. Danny
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Please forgive me if I'm wrong...But that looks more like mullberry than it does osage. I'm not saying your wrong. Just that it looks ALOT like mullberry.
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I use spray shellac and yes it is more expensive but for my application it works best. I bought shellac in a can a few years ago and didn't realize it had a shelf life. ::) If I were cutting trees for staves I would use the can but for sealing backs and ends on reduced staves a spray can will last me a while and doesn't go bad.
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Saw filer I see what you mean.I kinda wondered about that when i first veiwed the pics,but sometimes changing resolutions has a effect. It is awful light colored?And the one on the left has a slicker bark.
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Saw I dont think its Mullberry Im 99 .9 percent sure its osage. Im not an expert on the subject though. :) Ill post some more pics later when I have them ready to put up and dry. Should I seal the belly side with something also when they are drying? Im gonna stick with the latex paint I think. That way Im not out any more money. Thanks for the advice.
Pappy Ill wait a month then to put them in the box. I wanted one or two dry enough before the classic to bring with me and work while im there. Thank You Kenny
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Kenny, Don't seal the belly, just the ends...but you can come down the belly 4" to 6" to help prevent end checking. And of course, if you do remove the bark and sapwood, seal the back.
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Ive been workin on a place to store the wood in my LITTLE shop and I started takin off the bark on one and it doesn't come off very easy. Will the bark come off easier when the wood is dry? Ill take it off now but it will take some time to do. Also I have another question that maybe you all can help with. I have a cherry log that was cut last spring, I took the bark off about a week ago and I just split it into staves today. This wood has been outside the entire time until today. How long should I wait to rough one of these into a bow? I don't think Ill have to chase a ring on this wood right? I can use the outside under the bark as my back? I can post some pics of the cherry if it would help. Ruck I got 4 staves outa that log. 2 for you and 2 for me. ;D I'm gonna put spacers in between the staves so they can get air flow on all sides. Is this wise? Thank you for input fellas Kenny
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Kenneth, Was the cherry out in the weather or outside under shelter? If just outside, I wouldn't use it. If under shelter it should be OK.
If the tree was cut during the growing season, the bark will "slip"; meaning it will peel right off. If cut during it's dormant season, you will have to work at it.
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Pat the cherry has been outside but covered up until a few weeks ago when I took the bark off. I just cut the osage yesterday and they are the ones I haven't taken the bark from yet that is harder to remove. The cherry bark popped right off in big sheets. The osage needs to have a draw knife put on it to remove it. I didn't know if I waited if it would come off easier later. I am very disappointed from everything I have read about BC though. I had high hopes on workin those staves while my osage dried. :( I'm still gonna go on with the BC though and just put a good backing on it. Pat if I clamp the osage down to a board while it dries can that take some twist out of it? I really just am not sure what to do from here. Thanks Kenny
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Kenny,
Debarking gets harder not easier with time in my experience with osage. The main thing that is easier is the sapwood is easier for the knife to cut through when its still got moisture in it. Once it hardens its more work, plus you want to make sure you do'nt leave the bark on so that if there are bugs in the bark that they cannot do any damage to the rest of the stave. There is nothing easiy about debarking one way or the other however keep your drawknife plenty sharp and it will make it less of a struggle. I don't know about the cherry as the only thing I have workied with there is cherry boards. Do not paint the belly. The moisture has to have some where to go and its through the belly that you want to force it to escape to prevent checking. If you ever get the chance to read Dean Torges book " Hunting the Osage bow" he does a nice job of step by step telling you how to select, cut, and process your staves. Once you have done a couple loads you will be a lot smarter on how you do what you do. I don't think you can get the twist out that way in green stave form, you might be able to rough it into roughly bow shap and get a lot of the wood off of it and then steam and clamp to correct some of it but if its not too bad then I would'nt worry about it. I don't know that this a rule of thumb but I heard someone on here a lot more experienced than me say they don't like twist over 40 degrees. I suppose that tells me that if they can work a stave up to that much twist then you probabley can too. Hope that helps, Danny
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Thanks Sidewinder, I think we have at least 4 good ones in the bunch. they all have some twist in them but a few aren't as bad. I have read the Torges book. I even reread the first couple chapters over the past few weeks.I'm gonna get at the debarking and takin the sap wood off soon. Thanks for the encouragement I'm gonna keep going. If I can make a bow from one of these then maybe I can learn alot on one stave. Should get a shooter out of one of them. We have alot more we can cut and 3 whole trees that I have to cut for a friend and I am gonna keep all I can out of that bunch also. If I don't his son is gonna cut it for the big F word. (firewood ;D) If someone in this area wants to spend a day cuttin osage and knows what they are doin send a PM to me and Ill split the wood with you and Ruck. I'm gonna work a little with my BC tonight and see how that goes. Is a ring violation when you go all the way through a ring or would it be even if you take a little out of it? I wasn't sure what exactly so thought Id ask. Thanks again Sidewinder. Kenny
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Your welcome Kenny.
Where do you live? I'm up for harvesting osage at anytime as long your within 75-100 miles of southern Kansas, its the debarking and the rest of the work I have to get geared up for. Once I do, I am like a machine for several ngihts in a row until all the wood is processed and stable in the wood shed. Danny
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I live in southern Ohio. A lot more then 100 miles. ;D I have a BC stave taken down pretty far and even have a outline(very enlarged version) drawn on the back of the bow. I would like to get some opinions as to what they think I should do. Should I post it on this one or start a new post? Sidewinder if you are ever in Ohio and wanna cut some osage let me know and Ill try and find us some real quick. ;) Kenny
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Yep, it does look more like mulberry to me.... ???
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Looks like bow wood to me Kenny ;) :D
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I'm gonna start a new post about my Black Cherry bow I'm workin on. I think it is a lost cause but I'm gonna try it anyway. They are the only staves I have dry enough to work on.Ill keep waitin on the osage now to dry and let you know when I start on it. I am gettin worried now cause alot of you are telling me its mullberry. I really don't think it is but I would like to know for sure.What can I do to be sure?