Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: triton on March 26, 2009, 10:35:57 am
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Does anyone have a medieval style arrow bag? I've just got some material to make one and would like to know the diameter of the leather disc arrow seperator.
http://www.english-longbow.co.uk/largepics/arow%20bag%20with%20arrows.jpg
Thanks
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Hi Mike
6" diameter mate, if you want one I haver one here you can have FOC, its already drilled with 24holes, they just need enlarging to accept a 1/2" arrow, it is also punched around the edges for sewiing it into the bag.
Cheers
Steve
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;D Oh bloody excellent Steve. A bit busy tomorrow and no doubt you will be over the w/e. I'll try and get down early next week if that's ok ;D
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No worries, but make it before Wednesday as i'm off to Italy.
steve
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Triton, you could have clicked on the link on Richard Head Longbows' website. Then you can see this picture (http://www.english-longbow.co.uk/largepics/specials.html#leather%20spacer). The disc is 6½" in diameter.
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triton:
Hello beautiful arrows congratulations
I wanted to ask if possible to allow me to copy this picture of himself to
put it in our forum Archery
would be a pretty picture
thank you very much
Gabriel
www.arquerosdeamerica.foroactivo.com
www.arcosnewen.com.ar
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Hi Gabriel
I can't claim credit for those arrows. They belong to Richard Head http://www.english-longbow.co.uk/
I'm sure if you ask, he wont mind you using the picture.
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Thank you very much ;)
Gabriel
www.arquerosd.eamerica.foroactivo.com
www.arco.snewen.com.ar
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Hi I believe are looking for the bag to put the arrows here and if you leave a link that can serve the only drawback is that in Spanish
Greetings
http://www.arcomedievo.es/bolsa1.htm
Gabriel
www.arquerosdeamerica.foroactivo.com
www.arcosnewen.com.ar
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Thanks Gabriel, I have all the parts needed now.
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Please what can help with our forum migo.En leather work there or visit our forum where like ;)
Gabriel
www.arquerosdeamerica.foroactivocom
www.arcosnewen.comar
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Discs in the museum had a short slit at an edge of each hole which made possible a closer fit for the long tapered arrows. manuscript illustratiions show the upper part of the arrow bags like those pictured on this thread. Does someone have the evidence about the lower part ? It should be clear that an archer is not going to drag his fletchings through a 1/2" hole so the idea of a drawstring at the bottom doesn't make sense.
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perhaps experimental archeology would convince you. pull the fletchings through the hole and see what happens to them.
To myself and others it makes sense to undo the the bottom of the bag, push the arrows from the top into the ground and pull the bag off over the top. arrows are then prestented ready for shooting
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perhaps experimental archeology would convince you. pull the fletchings through the hole and see what happens to them.
To myself and others it makes sense to undo the the bottom of the bag, push the arrows from the top into the ground and pull the bag off over the top. arrows are then prestented ready for shooting
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That sounds to me like a lot of fumbling. When trying to pull the bag over the top, I picture the leather disc holes catching the fletching, pulling the arrows out of the ground and the archer pushing them back down, then trying to smooth his fletching under combat conditions.That alternative would make more sense to me if the disc held the arrows above the fletching, an alternative some experimental archaeologists have considersd, rather than below it as was actually the case. It also makes more sense to me to pull the bodkin pointed arrows upward, as would be the case with arrows hung at the hip as in one manuscript, rather than reach down below your knees to try to extract the arrows hung at the hip as one found on the Mary Rose was. But doubtless some experimental archaeologlsts are more flexible than I am. What I wanted to know was what evidence there is for the lower drawstring.
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try it
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Could it be that it was made that way so you could bag up 24 arrows without heads on and then undo the bottom to put the heads on later on at a different place or putting on different heads????
Thanks for your time.
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Discs in the museum had a short slit at an edge of each hole which made possible a closer fit for the long tapered arrows. manuscript illustratiions show the upper part of the arrow bags like those pictured on this thread. Does someone have the evidence about the lower part ? It should be clear that an archer is not going to drag his fletchings through a 1/2" hole so the idea of a drawstring at the bottom doesn't make sense.
The MR spacers do not have a short slit in them, This suggests that smaller bodkin type points were used as a barbed head would not fit through the hole, There is only one spacer which is in the British Museum which has a small notch in the holes but I'm unsure of the date of this spacer.
Below is a picture of the MR spacers.
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m163/stevesjem/spacers.jpg)
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perhaps experimental archeology would convince you. pull the fletchings through the hole and see what happens to them.
To myself and others it makes sense to undo the the bottom of the bag, push the arrows from the top into the ground and pull the bag off over the top. arrows are then prestented ready for shooting
\
That sounds to me like a lot of fumbling. When trying to pull the bag over the top, I picture the leather disc holes catching the fletching, pulling the arrows out of the ground and the archer pushing them back down, then trying to smooth his fletching under combat conditions.That alternative would make more sense to me if the disc held the arrows above the fletching, an alternative some experimental archaeologists have considersd, rather than below it as was actually the case. It also makes more sense to me to pull the bodkin pointed arrows upward, as would be the case with arrows hung at the hip as in one manuscript, rather than reach down below your knees to try to extract the arrows hung at the hip as one found on the Mary Rose was. But doubtless some experimental archaeologlsts are more flexible than I am. What I wanted to know was what evidence there is for the lower drawstring.
Earlier in the year, in the museum of a castle in Trentino, Italy, I saw a 15th painting of a battle in which one archer was depicted using an arrow bag as a side quiver. The top and bottom drawstrings were undone, the top and bottom of the bag were shown rolled towards the spacer in the middle and the drawstrings were used to tie it all to the archer's belt. It looked a workable arrangement, BUT it wasn't a painting of English archers.
Dave
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try it
Thanks. I prefer to stick with my quiver.
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To add to my earlier post, it has been suggested that the arrows could have been pulled through the spacer pulling the fletch through the spacer and Bow-Toxo suggests that this is not really feasable as the fletchings could get damaged, however one thing that has been overlooked here is that the 1/2" hole in the spacer is not a tight fit around the arrow shaft as the arrow shaft is Bobtaile (Tapered) from 1/2" at the head (So no problem fitting through the hole) to 3/8" at the nock, this means just under an 1/8" gap around the shaft just below the fletch, (This would allow the fletch to be pulled through the spacer without damage to the fletch at all.)
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Of course points used with spacers would have to be bodkin points. A photograph of a Tudor spacer posted on "English Warbow" as I recall, did definitely show a short slit at one side of each hole. Your photo is not clear enough to see whether there are slits or not. To add to my earlier post, why pull an arrow from the bottom when it is more convenient to pull it from the top without the slightest threat to the fletching ? Triton's suggestion that "To myself and others it makes sense to undo the the bottom of the bag, push the arrows from the top into the ground and pull the bag off over the top", might be difficult to manage on the hardwood deck of the Mary Rose. BTW, the longer arrows were bobtailed, the shorter ones were not tapered from the head.
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Of course points used with spacers would have to be bodkin points. A photograph of a Tudor spacer posted on "English Warbow" as I recall, did definitely show a short slit at one side of each hole. Your photo is not clear enough to see whether there are slits or not. To add to my earlier post, why pull an arrow from the bottom when it is more convenient to pull it from the top without the slightest threat to the fletching ? Triton's suggestion that "To myself and others it makes sense to undo the the bottom of the bag, push the arrows from the top into the ground and pull the bag off over the top", might be difficult to manage on the hardwood deck of the Mary Rose. BTW, the longer arrows were bobtailed, the shorter ones were not tapered from the head.
Here is the close up image of the MR Spacer, you can plainly see that there are no notches in the holes.
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m163/stevesjem/spacers2.jpg)
Here is a picture of a spacer that is in the English Museum, this one clearly has notches cut into it, which could suggest that barbed heads could have been pushed through the holes, or as Triton suggests this slit could help with pulling the fletchings through the holes. Whether this is a tudor spacer or not I do not know, if it was then barbed heads would not have been used, so the fletching theory is the best argument.
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m163/stevesjem/Spacerwithnotches.jpg)
There is no doubt that some of the arrow bags had openings in the bottom as well as the top, also that some only had openings in the top, it is questionable that the arrows were stuck in the ground and the arrow bag pulled over the top, but nevertheless there are naiive pictures from the medieval period which show both and also show the arrow bag rolled up at the bottom showing the different head types in the quiver and also the top rolled down showing the fletchings, so these were used, but in which way it is hard to say, so only good guesses can be made.
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Here is the close up image of the MR Spacer, you can plainly see that there are no notches in the holes.
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m163/stevesjem/spacers2.jpg)
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m163/stevesjem/Spacerwithnotches.jpg)
There is no doubt that some of the arrow bags had openings in the bottom as well as the top, also that some only had openings in the top, it is questionable that the arrows were stuck in the ground and the arrow bag pulled over the top, but nevertheless there are naiive pictures from the medieval period which show both and also show the arrow bag rolled up at the bottom showing the different head types in the quiver and also the top rolled down showing the fletchings, so these were used, but in which way it is hard to say, so only good guesses can be made.
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I have not seen any of those pictures. Can someone please post them ? It would be very interesting and probably informative. I think it is always best to get as much evidence and informed input as possible.
Erik
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is it just me ?
or has this spacer got 25 holes? not 24?
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m163/stevesjem/Spacerwithnotches.jpg)
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here's my arrow bag i made a couple of years ago now.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o77/sgt-ratman/PICT0499.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o77/sgt-ratman/PICT0500.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o77/sgt-ratman/PICT0501.jpg)
please excuse the arrows, they are old and i no longer use them , but i had to put something in it for the pics ;)
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25 holes.
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Awesome arrow bag. Nothing wrong with those arrows, they look fine to me. Didn't medieval archers stuff straw in the bottom of the bag to protect it from the heads?
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Awesome arrow bag. Nothing wrong with those arrows, they look fine to me. Didn't medieval archers stuff straw in the bottom of the bag to protect it from the heads?
thanks :)
quite possibly, i seem to remember reading somwhere that they used corn or barley in the bottom, but don't quote me on that, because i'm working from vague memory ;)
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if pulling a 5/8" hole over fletches is detrimental, how would they suffer after being pulled from a belt as shown in many medieval illustrations. I said "try it" and if you do, you'll see the fletches don't suffer enough to warrant them useless.
I didn't make my bag with any intention of being accurate for the period. I like them and fancied making one. nothing more. I have cut the holes in the disc 5/8" because to me that's logical to ease filling up of the cassette. 25 holes like a bakers dozen perhaps? I cut the slits in the side of each hole because Tudor bodkins wont go in quick enough. After opening the bottom of the bag and pushing the arrows from the top, into the gorund, the bag pulled up and the fletches were unscathed, ready to shoot quicker than drawing each one out of the bag.
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is it just me ?
or has this spacer got 25 holes? not 24?
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m163/stevesjem/Spacerwithnotches.jpg)
You're right it does have 25