Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: hntr on May 28, 2009, 09:05:29 pm
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I recently purchased some planed bamboo from Rudderbow Archery for use as backing and it seem to be very uneven in thichness after the planing. The difference in thickness is both side ot side and top to bottom (upper and Lower limb). The seller states that this is normal and the only way to plane bamboo because it grows like that. Then he went on and on about how I was rude and embarrassed myself by being unhappy with the quality and lack the skills to make it work, I will never purchase another thing from this brat. It seems to me like it would cause twisting of the limbs and be a pain tillering the limbs so as to correct the twisting.
If anyone on here uses bamboo for backing is it true that properly planed bamboo is going to be uneven, and I mean this stuff is really uneven?
If so does it make the limbs twist?
How difficult is it to get a good tiller?
Has anyone else had this kind of response from this seller?
If interested I will include the e-mail correspondence I was shocked at his response.
Thanks,
Hntr
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How much do you know about backing a bow with bamboo? I don't mean to be rude either but the bamboo can be tappered from the middle to the ends and side to side.
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I don't know anything about bamboo, never used it before. This bamboo it razor thin on one side and about 1/8 th of an inch on the other side. From top to bottom it is from about 3/8th of an inch to about 1/16th. The place offers tapered or planed bamboo and I purchased planed.
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A slight side to side thickness difference will not make much difference but going from 1/16" thick at one end to 3/8" thick at the other is just no good
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It is just about always a bit thicker around the nodes but other than that it should be iniform from end to end or tapered from mid to end..
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OK this guy is a jerk and sending me more emails about how it is nice to lose customers like me and that because I have only built two bow I don't know what I'm talking about. I am going to put my email and his response down and ask you guys if I was rude to him in any manner. My wife didn't think so.
The only reason I emailed the guy in the first place is because I am tired of paying the premium price and then recieve something that is not of premium quality. I feel that if I could do a better job than why would I pay a pro extra to do it.
My e-mail:
I recently received 2 hickory floor tillered staves and 2 planed
> bamboo
>> backings. The bamboo is not planed equally, it is much thinner on one
>
>> side than the other and the same on the upper and lower limb areas.
> The
>> hikory staves are not the quality of wood that I expected either. One
> had
>> about an inch of set already and splinters on the edge of the back.
> The
>> roughed in string grooves were so uneven I feel that if I wanted to
> keep
>> it a 72 inch bow I would have to open them up to an unattractive notch
>
>> width. I atempted to salvage it last night by trimming the whole edge
> down
>> and feel it is a lost cause. I Think that after I get the bamboo
> evened
>> out it will be too thin.
His response:
Jeff,
> Its best not to even out the bamboo, leave it as is. It grows that
> way
> and is not like fiberglass and you cannot perceive it with the same
> physics
> as a fiberglass bow. If you even out the bamboo you will not have a
> flat
> glue surface any longer. Glue it to the bow and than compensate for any
> stiff spots by tillering the bow.
> . Compensate for the thickness after the glue up is accomplished by
> removing
> wood from the belly side of the stave, not the bamboo. that's how we do
> it
> successfully and many of our customers as well.
> A word of advice: Before you become critical and embarrass yourself
> ask
> about things you don't understand first. This way you will learn allot
> without making enemies. We and many of our customers build excellent
> bows
> from the same materials you have in your possession. We produce nearly
> 1500
> bows a year made from the same exact bamboo and hickory you now have in
> your
> hands. Why is it we and 99% of our kits and staves customers do it
> successfully . If its all a total loss its because you lack the skills
> and
> imagination to work with them, not because our materials are inferior.
> Not
> meaning to sound rude.but, It may be easier for you to understand
> fiberglass bows because everything is perfectly symmetrical and offers
> few
> building challenges whatsoever.
> If you would like to be kind and treat me correctly as a human being I
> can
> walk you through this project so that you could actually see that these
> materials you have in your hands will indeed produce an excellent
> quality
> bow. However,if you decide to keep treating me like I am not human I
> will
> not have any inclination to help you.
> Thanks and Pray hard !
> Jim and Sherry Boswell
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I've had similar bad dealings with Jim at rudderbows. I soon realized I could do a much better job myself, and I would end up much happier. When I questioned Jim about his quality control, I recieved a very similar answer.
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Having made 30 or 40 BB backed bows I have to say his answer was basicly BS. I have bought a lot of bamboo and never received a piece that was ready to put on a bow, all needs more belly sanding and side trimming.
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well i know not alot of people here care for jim.
me myself however,have nothing but good to say about him.
that is where i purchased my first few staves from.a glue up kit. and heck right now i am just finishing
a boo/hick bow from jim.the boo is uneven in thickness up and down its length.
however this has not effected the bow. i feel i have it tillered pretty well.
it shoots where you look,and feels fast too.
i have made several bows that were just kits and several that were floor tillered staves.i have had friends buy from him and have me finish the bow for them.
i have never had an issue with his products.
i have to agree with jim,it can be made into a good bow,it takes patience just like making a bow from a stave.
sorry for your bad experience/perseption of jim and his products.
if you give jim and his products a chance you will find he is a very helpfull person.while working with any of his products if you
have a question all you have to do is pick up the phone and call him.he would be more than happy to talk you thru and problems.
just my 2 cents worth,good luck
if you want to see pics of the bow,i would be happy to post them
peace,
tim
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I have had nothing but good talks with Jim. But if Jim actually wrote that, then I am ashamed of him as a person I do business with and as a brother in Christ. You might not know what your doing. But still, you bought product off the man, and deserve better than this. But then again, it sounds like more went down before this latest emai. Especially when he is saying, "if you decide to keep treating me like I am not human".
I have talked to his people several times, this just puzzles me how this went down.
But planed to me could mean several things. For me, which I have only done one Bamboo/IPE bow, I planed on a joiner, and used a hand plane and sander to get things even. Do you have the width to use a hand plane to take down to even up? I like the knife edge look on bamboo. But like it on both sides. So if its barrel tapered, then it should be close to knife edged all the way down its length and go from like 1/8" to 1/16" at the tip.
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NO, that is my first correspondence with the man and his response. There have been a few after and they were also pretty childish. I have already found a different place to get materials from for future projects. And I am going to sell the stuff I got from him cause I dont think I could make bows out of it after I know what kind of guy he is.
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I thought I had something to say... but I don't ::)
Russ
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I thought I had something to say... but I don't ::)
Russ
I thought I had something to add also but I guess I don't ;D, well maybe I do
Tim
If you think you can make a bow out that stuff then you should buy it off hntr since he wants to sell it
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i know nothing of this company or the people who own or run it. that said; i think this could be a chance to increase your expience and take the parts you have and dispite all make a good bow.
to me this is the satisfaction i get from building bows. and everyone here will most likely be glad to help when you get stumped. think positive brother.
chuck
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NO, that is my first correspondence with the man and his response. There have been a few after and they were also pretty childish. I have already found a different place to get materials from for future projects. And I am going to sell the stuff I got from him cause I dont think I could make bows out of it after I know what kind of guy he is.
Well, let me ask you is the bamboo flat on the bottom? If it is, then its planed. Next, you need to take a plane or sander to get it right ready for gluing. So, was you expecting to get something ready for glueing? It sounds like you have all the pieces to do what you need, just have to do some woodworking with simple inexpensive tools.
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I disagree, If i ordered boo planed already i would expect it ready to glue. Why order it planed??? If i have to re work it why not just do it from the start and order it raw, CHEAPER. That is why you buy a kit or ready made materials. We all dont have the tools to do what is required, thats why people sell kits and parts for the guy that wants to try and make a bow . If this guy has planed the boo allready, why not plane it right in the first place??? Every piece of boo ive ever ordered planed came ready to glue except for taking a hacksaw blade to it to roughen up the glue surface.
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... From top to bottom it (tapers) from about 3/8th of an inch to about 1/16th. ...
That rudderbow guy says just glue it on the way it is, and we all know that won't make a bow, right!? He doesn't mean to sound rude, but boy, he DOES sound rude!
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Just seen the $ you piad for what you got!! :o :o :o
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... From top to bottom it (tapers) from about 3/8th of an inch to about 1/16th. ...
That rudderbow guy says just glue it on the way it is, and we all know that won't make a bow, right!? He doesn't mean to sound rude, but boy, he DOES sound rude!
I agree if rudderbows say just glue on and tiller out the stiff parts, then there is a problem. I am a newbie myself, but I do know I wouldn't want to glue on a piece of boo where one side is real thick, and other thin. Its ashamed it went down like this.
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I must admit I suspected where you bought the material long before I got to the emails. It seems to be a habit of them to talk around their mistakes and making excuses in stead of replacing the material with what you paid for. I think you could make a bow out of it, but it would take a lot more time and patience. If I bought planed boo from a garden center, I would accept that stuff. When you buy it from a bow builder/supplier you should expect higher quality, especially since you paid premium. I'm sorry you paid good money for mediocre/bad materials. Justin
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The response was uncalled for in my opinion.
I will say this, having worked with hickory staves and boards for glue up they can look very deflexed before glue up but you can manipulate that into reflex by the way you form the two materials in the glue up. It is called Perry Reflex. Don't let the deflex bother you. I can understand the response bothers you, though.
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I'm sure I could make it work, but I would like to make something that is worthy of passing down to my kids and I think too highly of my children to give them a bow made out of this stuff. So if anyone is interested its for sale.
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Jeff, I'm sorry for the way I came off. After reading what Jim's responce, I'd be a tad pissed too. It is a shame that somebody like that would take advantage of a new bowyer. Hopefully he will come around and make things right. If not a business can be ruined very easily by word of mouth.
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Here is what I would do, make the best of what you have. Take you bamboo and draw out a 1 1/4" wide bow pattern on the belly, make it as perfect as you can by working off a center line end to end. 12" from the nocks taper your pattern to 1/2" nocks. Trim your bamboo to the pattern you drew. Use a sanding block or belt sander to even up the thickness side to side about 1/16" everywhere on the bamboo even the tips. While sanding pay attention to the entire slat and keep the belly flat.
I guess you better run a sanding block over the the future glue surface of your hickory to make sure it is flat. Put 3" blocks under the hickory slats tips and glue your bamboo on. trim your hickory to the same dimensions as your bamboo after you take the clamps off. Most of the reflex will come out after you take your clamps off and tiller your bow.
If you make BBH like I described you will have a rocket launcher, how do I know, I am finishing up that exact bow today. It pulls about 45# at 25" and shoots at least 160fps.
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My response from Jim was disappointing, also. I requested replacement for poor quality material, and he flat out refused... told me I didn't know what I was doing, and it was my fault, etc., etc.
Poor business practice, I think. hntr, with little effort, you can make your own material much better, and cheaper. Don't be afraid to jump in and give it a go yourself.
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Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Not to worry. The kind of people that make their own bows usually vote with their wallets when they hear of this kind of thing. I know I do.
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hntr, I'm not gonna comment on Rudderbows and their products, you see the quality. James Parker sells some ready to glue up, evenly planed and dyed if you want bamboo backings and is an advertiser in the magazine also. These backings are top shelf and James will bend over backwards to please a customer.
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well like i said, i know not many on here have any good to say about Jim.
now i dont know him or his family personaly nor is he paying me to say this.
now like i said i too have gotten this kind of product from him. i also got the same response,i didnt take it as being sarcastic.
i took it as maybe he knows his products.i didnt go around acting like someone pissed in my oat meal either.
i decided that since i paid hard earned money for this so as to make a bow from it,that was what i was going to do.
i knew that my abilities at that time werent up to the project.i have had this for well over a year now.i have worked on it a little here a little there as my
self confidence has grown.i dont give up,i problem solve.
i figured if he said it will make a good bow,then thats what i was going to do with it.
here are some pics to show the boo
first are the same spot on one limb,left to right
(http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2124/1000386.jpg)
(http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3200/1000384.jpg)
next is the differance in the boo thicknes in the other limb
(http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/765/1000388g.jpg)
and the tiller
(http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6475/1000392q.jpg)
see it can be done,i have over 200 arrows thru this to shoot it in.now i am doing the finish on it.
it will be shot all this summer for target practice.it pulls 46# @ 26"
all things considerd,i think it turned out pretty damn well and i am pleased as punch.
@Marc: i dont need a glue up bow right now,as i have enough staves to keep me busy for awhile and i enjoy doing them more.
however if you would like to purchase it and send it to me i would be happy to make a bow from it and post a pic or three ;D ;)
peace,
tim
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I'm sure Jim starts with perfectly good wood :P
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If he had sent the bamboo as it grew, a bow could still be made out of it. That does not make it a planed bamboo backing strip tho. If he had sent it to me, I would be PO"ed too. I can't believe the people here attacking this man for reporting his problems with shoddy merchandise.
Bad business is bad business. No where is there a requirement for me to accept shoddy goods or service from anyone. I for one appreciate the warning posted written in the man's own words! Thanks for taking the time to make the rest of us newcomers aware of this kind of business paractices.
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i am not attacking anyone
i am just stating that what Jim says about it being able to make a bow is true.
they act like just because it isn't a perfect piece that it wouldn't make a shootable bow.
it just isn't aesthetically pleasing
it does what he says it will do. it makes a shootable bow.
i am not saying that what he charges for the product is right.that is an individual consumers decision to make.
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now like i said i too have gotten this kind of product from him. i also got the same response,i didnt take it as being sarcastic.
i took it as maybe he knows his products.i didnt go around acting like someone pissed in my oat meal either
Maybe I did not understand this statement then! Maybe you can explain how it is not an attack on a poster in this forum.
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i am not attacking anyone
i am just stating that what Jim says about it being able to make a bow is true.
they act like just because it isn't a perfect piece that it wouldn't make a shootable bow.
it just isn't aesthetically pleasing
it does what he says it will do. it makes a shootable bow.
i am not saying that what he charges for the product is right.that is an individual consumers decision to make.
You are right, it is a consumers decision to make. And when the consumer gets inferior product he should be able to decide to refuse it, not be told he is dumb because he thinks it is inferior. You don't exactly get to see the product before it is shipped. Bamboo is a very strong backing and can overpower most woods and cause fatal set and fretting in a bow. You might get a bow out of the product, but a much better bow could be made if good material was supplied.
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Once burned twice shy eh. Next time you need boo backing or other stuff take a look at these fine advertisers and contributors on the forum
James Parker(robustus) and David Knights company http://www.huntworthyproductions.com/
and
Richard Saffold at RICHARDSBOWYERY.COM
Both are paid advertisers and these guys are upstanding folk that will back their product and answers any question you have :)
Ask around I don't think you will find any complaints about these folk :)
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now like i said i too have gotten this kind of product from him. i also got the same response,i didnt take it as being sarcastic.
i took it as maybe he knows his products.i didnt go around acting like someone pissed in my oat meal either
Maybe I did not understand this statement then! Maybe you can explain how it is not an attack on a poster in this forum.
maybe you can point out in any of my post in this topic where i ATTACKED a fellow poster on the forum.
all i have done is speak from personal experience.
yes i realize Jim doesnt want to take it back and make his customer happy.as a business man that his decision.
if i ran his business,i would make the customer happy.however like i said i have been there too.i just decided that i wasnt going to let what i paid hard earned cash for,
go to waste. I MADE A BOW FROM IT AND HE CAN TOO. it may not be the same bow he had dreamed about,but it will still be a shootable bow.
he can like he said he wants too,sell the product to some one else.then that person can be unhappy with him for selling inferior products as he is with Jim.
i wont buy it from him,cause i have plenty of staves as of now to keep me busy for awhile.
however if he just wants to plain get rid of it,fine i would be happy to take it and make a bow from it.
now please show me where i attacked a fellow poster ,if you are refering to my line about going around acting like someone pissed in my oatmeal.
well if he got that response from jim,instaed of just whining and bitching about it,knowing that it cant be returned,why not just try and make a bow from it
instead of just whining and complaining about it
normally at this point i would type in my usual here,not this time
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Never mind dude! If you don't get it, then it isn't my job to explain it.
To the OP. The way such things get fixed is by voting with yoiur wallet. A great many of the people here will do exactly that. The only other good suggestion I have heard so far is to ask the guys that want to make a bow of the stuff you were sent if they wish to give you your money back.
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Tim, that last responce is like saying you bought a tent from Walmart. And when you set it up it had the wrong poles in the box and they told you how to whittle a stick instead and it would work.
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i should preface this by saying that i'm stubborn & cheap... ;)
i was concerned about this kind of thing when i started making bows. after seeing some poor examples of mail order staves & backings online, i just bit the bullet & got a table saw instead ($200 hitachi). seeing this thread (and the 20 or so backing strips in the garage ranging from pristine to kindling) makes me glad i did what i did. i pay roughly $30 for a 1 15/16" x 8" x 72" flat sawn hickory board & convert it into a pile of quarter sawn backing strips. it allows me to be fearless in my experiments (i only have around $1.50 into each backing strip!). i'd have a hard time charging the prices i see on alot of websites... :-[
then i saw some of Robustus's bows- he's not human. his work amazes me. Richard Saffold is another one of those guys who makes me think "i'll never be able to make a bow look & shoot that great!" . stick with the guys who put their bows & materials out there for all of us to see. i don't know if you've noticed, but these two post alot of encouragement & advice online for free. i can't say the same for most of the mail order companies that i see out there.
i've been hitting quite a few archery websites now for the last year and have heard some bad things about alot of folks who deal online. i haven't heard anything but great about these guys.
i don't know much about much, but i try to pay attention,
Rob
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Once burned twice shy eh. Next time you need boo backing or other stuff take a look at these fine advertisers and contributors on the forum
James Parker(robustus) and David Knights company http://www.huntworthyproductions.com/
and
Richard Saffold at RICHARDSBOWYERY.COM
Both are paid advertisers and these guys are upstanding folk that will back their product and answers any question you have :)
Ask around I don't think you will find any complaints about these folk :)
I have to second this. Richard has been nothing short of awesome to do business with, and I definately plan to do business with David in the future.
More good folks on here to do business with then not.
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Thanks guys, and I believe like any business providing the best customer service and advice is paramount. I know James, David and Marc all go out of their way to have their customers succeed since out work is more our of pride than anything else..To get rich doing this you would have to work so hard you wouldn't have time to breath, and its the enjoyment of responses like these here which drive us more than anything else..
It's all about having fun..more than we should ;)
Rich
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I have always gone to the extreme to please a customer, no questions asked. On the other hand I know of one bowyer who is so unreliable people have gradually distanced themselves from him. At one time, no one in the country made and sold more bows than he did. If he had maintained a stellar reputation he might have been very wealthy from the bow business he ran, he was that successful. Failing to stand behind his products, taking money but never shipping bows, sending what ever he had on hand instead of what a customer ordered and flat out lying to customers were his short comings.
The person mentioned at the start of this thread probably lost 100 customers by being difficult to deal with. Had he sent good materials, had the poster brag on line about their quality and what a joy it was to deal with this supplier, he probably would have gained at least 100 customers.
Some vendors just don't get it, what you do REALLY does come back to you.
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Some pics for comparison. This is a BBI from Jim. The bamboo backing varies in thickness from 1/16" to 1/2". No consideration to node placement. I questioned his quality, and was told I was an idiot. This stave did NOT make a bow. I could not tiller it out, with such huge variation in backing thickness.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Here is a BBO from another supplier. I don't know about you guys, but I know which glue up I'd rather tiller.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Some pics for comparison. This is a BBI from Jim. The bamboo backing varies in thickness from 1/16" to 1/2". No consideration to node placement. I questioned his quality, and was told I was an idiot. This stave did NOT make a bow. I could not tiller it out even with such huge variation in backing thickness.
My first try at this came to a (way) better result (using just a little belt sander)! Trying to tiller this blank will be nothing but a learning experience, I'd say.
Would anyone put on some 1/16" of sinew here and some 1/2" there and try to even it out by making the wood thicker here and thinner there?? - I believe good bamboo will torture your wood even more, may it be Osage or Ipé!
The comparison blank looks like you tiller that between evening news and bedtime and shoot it in next morning.
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Holy cow, thats bad adb. I am a newbie and my boo looks much better.
I found a bench sander on craiglist fo 30 dollars. And its paid for itself. Well worth it not to deal with that.
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Here's two more from advertisers in the magazine for comparison. I bought these two from Mike Yancey and James Parker/David Knight. The first one is Mike's, a very nice person that will bend over backwards for his customers and always is pleasant to talk to. The second one is from James and David,huntworthy production. Both guy's are ugly as all get out but will help you out with top notch advice and excellent products. And they are lucky they have the women they have.
You can see how flat and consistant the planeing is.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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planed means planed, nothing more noting less. tapered, ready for glue up is more refined, and to do it properly the front profile should also be close to the finished dimensions of the bow. IE. a flatbow 62 in and a longbow 72 in bamboo backing are very different animals but both backing strips could be made from a similar piece of planed boo. Basically bamboo goes from culm to split to planed, and finally to tapered ready for glue up. If the bow that abd posted came glued up from Jim, then Jim needs to go take a class from a reputable bowyer to learn the basic fundamentals of bamboo bow construction. This is not harsh, just the truth. If this his way of customer service he very soon will be out of business and we wont be having this discussion again. You can make bows out of inferior materials, hell duct taping garden stakes of varying lengths can make you a bow and you could probably kill something with it with dry weather and lots of time and arrows. That is really not the point.
God Bless,
Chris Blank
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planed means planed, nothing more noting less. tapered, ready for glue up is more refined, and to do it properly the front profile should also be close to the finished dimensions of the bow. IE. a flatbow 62 in and a longbow 72 in bamboo backing are very different animals but both backing strips could be made from a similar piece of planed boo. Basically bamboo goes from culm to split to planed, and finally to tapered ready for glue up. If the bow that abd posted came glued up from Jim, then Jim needs to go take a class from a reputable bowyer to learn the basic fundamentals of bamboo bow construction. This is not harsh, just the truth. If this his way of customer service he very soon will be out of business and we wont be having this discussion again. You can make bows out of inferior materials, hell duct taping garden stakes of varying lengths can make you a bow and you could probably kill something with it with dry weather and lots of time and arrows. That is really not the point.
God Bless,
Chris Blank
My planed Bamboo is ready to glue. If you buy planed Bamboo from a reputable bowyer it should be at the very least of a uniform thickness or the bowyer should go back to school and learn how to use power tools
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These comments are exactly what I spoke with Jim about, and he blew me off as an idiot. He has certainly lost my business, and several others I know, and everyone else I can convince. Make a quality product you are proud of, and then stand behind it.
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Don't visit the site right now without your anti-virus on. My machine is showing that it is trying to load an infected file.
I was going thru all kinds of archery sites looking at a little bit of everything. I clicked and the site opened, but then AVG popped up.
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I have to agree with the opinions on David Knight. He has spent a lot of time on the phone and emailing me to help me out in any way he can. I had a little problem with a kid's blank that I got from him, which was mostly due to my inexperience, and he took care of it. I shipped it to him and he fixed it and shipped it back to me....what more can you ask for? Thanks David.
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Another vote for Richard here. I just had to floor tiller the ipe belly and then glue the bow together. He's given me plenty of advise and the one time there was a problem(undetectable material defect---no fault of his) he was quick to offer to make amends. I just told him what I needed and he was happy to make it happen. He even offered to send me a bottle of glue since titebond 3 was not available here locally then(Ace now carries it). Thanks Rich.
John
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man im dizzy where am i..... :(
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I was able to visit with Dave at his home and shop the other day. And even though ive got to spend some time with him and Cora the last couple of months, I left there even more impressed. The man knows his equipment and how to use it. I wouldnt hesitate to order what i needed from Dave and Cora. Top notch for sure. And also some great cooks, Nugget and i left there hurting with a belly of fine food. thanks boo
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Brownhillboy.. It was no problem.. I am glad to help you with anything I can any time!!
Boo I thank you for the kind words.. And me and Cora would love to have you back at the house any time!! I will put a set of ribs in the smoker next time.. ;)
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Hey Mark planed means 1. a surface containing all the straight lines that connect any two points on it. 2. a flat or level surface. The use of power surface planers have led to the misuse of the term " planed" in that the power planer by its nature creates two planed surfaces that also happen to be parallel to one another and create boards of equal thickness IE the term thickness planner. If you do not cut the front view profile of the bow prior to thinning and tapering the boo very often the boo will appear thicker at the tips when viewed from the side. Not the end of the world but not aesthetically pleasing, at least to my eye. There are lots of ways to skin a cat, thats just the way I do it. I believe the problem in the posted pictures is that the bamboo was not heat straightened prior to planing causing uneven thickness along the bamboos length, the side to side uneven thickness is more likely caused by either haste or misunderstanding the steps involved in planing bamboo. Just my Two Cents
God Bless,
Chris Blank
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Chris, It looks like a few people have their own opinion of what planed bamboo is. But this thread has informed everybody what you are going to end up with for your money, depending on who you buy from. It's not hard for this Ol', dumb, Southern boy to figure out who I'd deal with.