Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: yazoo on July 07, 2009, 03:57:24 pm
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lots of guys have ask me for advice on choosing a stave, so here are some tips
1. know who you are buying from, ask for references
2. make sure the stave is dated , and is the date when it was cut or split , can make big difference
3. dont buy a stave that is above your skill level, be realistic
4. ask if the guy you are buying from cut the wood his self ,, or is just reselling.
5. check for visiable defects, not just on the back,,THE BELLY IS THE MOST INPORTANT WHEN CHECKING FOR FLAWS, IF POSSIABLE DONT BUY PIE SHAPED STAVE, THE POINT ON THE BELLY SIDE CAN HIDE MANY DEFECTS,,ONCE YOU SAW OR SPLIT THE POINT OFF THE STAVE YOU CAN GET A GOOD LOOK AT WHAT YOU HAVE GOT.
6. NEVER AND I MEAN NEVER BUY A STAVE THAT HAS BEEN SAWN OUT ON THE SIDES, THE LONGITUTAL GRAIN MAY BE VIOLATED,
7. If you are picking out a stave and dont know what you are looking for, find a friend or someone you trust to pick you out a good one,, some stave dealers are like a used car salesman,, always good to get a second opinion
8. ask about refund policy, if you buy the perfect stave and cut into it and it is trash, a good dealer will stand behing his wood,now if you bandsaw it in half dont ask, but if it is a unforseen flaw, you should be able to work something out,
9. make sure the earlywood , latewood ratio is good, if you can not tell one ring from another, this is trash, I was on ebay yesterday and saw some osage like this, someone who dont know better will buy it and the bow will fail,and we may loose a primitive bowyer forever,
I hope some of this info will help, anyone have any more suggestions?
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Good stuff Mike, thanks !
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lol..... :D ;D
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Thanks, Mike. Valuable info.
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I almost forgot
10. dont let a crooked stave scare you off, 99.9% of all osage needs to be heated and put on a form,focus on the quality of the wood,knots and pins, depending on your skill level, earlywood to latewood ratio is most inportant,,, and yes my friend there is bad osage, just because it is orange dont mean its good,,
mike mcguire
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Dumb question
the early-latewood ratio basicly means how thick the latewood rings are? and if so what is the min thickness for a latewood ring? I look for one at least 1/8"
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Good info Mike. :)
Pappy
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I will have to disagree a little with you Mike a little on the growth ring ratio. Not all thin ringed Osage is bad. My personal experience with Osage has shown that real wide growth ring Osage seems to make sluggish bows for me sometimes. And the thinner ringed Osage bows have more zip to them. If you have a thin growth ringed osage stave I would recommend it to be backed with sinew or rawhide for safety though. Dean
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I agree with you also Dean,but I would say exceptional wide growth,I don't like,but they do
need to be thick enough to chase.I think what Mike is saying is like some I have seen that you can't tell the difference they all kind of run togeather.I like mine 1/16/ to 1/8 with a supper thin late
wood,the thinner the better. :)
Pappy
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Generalization has it place, but there are no absolutes. If elm will make a good bow, and it will, then so will fat ringed osage. Similarly, a thin ringed osage may need to be wider, or even backed w/ hide, sinew, cloth to survive. Whatever it takes to make the bow from the stave in your hand is the mark of a dedicated bowyer but the design and crafting have to fit the wood. The unstated truth, as in all marketing, is that price matters. If you want a dead nut straight, natural even reflex, no knots, great density osage stave 6' long, well they are fairly rare and as such command a better price.
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I am not saying that thin ringed is bad,super thin latewood is great , as long as the earlywood is proportional, the type of osage I am talking about, has no rings and is a solid mass,and is all earlywood,and very brittle,,
to answer loco's question the earlywood to latewood ratio is not how thick the latewood rings are, It is how thick the latewood is in relation to the earlywood,,real thin latewood is great as long as the earlywood is thin enough to match,, there is no min latewood thickness,, unless it becomes to thin to chase,,, I guess when it comes down to it, latewood thickness doesnot matter,,,its the super thin earlywood that is most inportant,,
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Well as long as we are disagreeing, LOL, point #6 is a good one for the beginner. Spilt staves automatically follow the longitudinal fibers but the experienced bowyer can spot them and draw the middle line accordingly so as to follow the long. grain if the stave is sawn. The beginner should learn how to do that from the get go. I am slow to buy into the early wood/ late wood rule too. I've just made those without good ratios a little wider but what the heck do I know. One of the best bows I ever made was from a 1.25 inch osage sucker that had no early/latewood ratio. Don't listen to me though. Jawge
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I will admit I have no experience with the bad osage, I have been blessed to have always had lots of osage to choose from. the only thing I use the bad osage for is smokeing pork but,,and its goooood,,, I really enjoy hearing everyones opinion,I am one of those that is hung up on the earlywood , latewood, ratio, my mentor in my younger days preached this in my head and I cant get it out,,by the way his initals is GD and he likes dr pepper,, I would like to see some photos of osage bows made from less than quality wood, and show the tip where we can see the grain,
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I hear ya, yazoo. In NH, there's no such thing as bad osage unless it's riddled with worm holes. I'd take a picture of the osage sucker bow but I gave it away. :) Jawge
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In my opinion, white oak for butts, maybe red oak for ribs. Hickory just too strong for my tastes anymore. Osage has got enough oils in it, I never considered using it for smoking wood. But for a heat fire, nothing I've found burns any hotter or longer.
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I live in southern California. I checked the lumber yard out her (Frost Hardwood) they only carry Hickory as well as some exotic hardwoods. Is ther any other woods cable of becoming a bow? Or is there a place on-line that caters to bow making?
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"Spilt staves automatically follow the longitudinal fibers"
I have a green ash tree (Fraxinus pennsylvanicus) that I cut and then split on the same day. When I de-barked the staves a year later they all had horrible twist to the grain, even though they split straight as a laser. One 8" wide stave has such bad grain run out on the sides that I can only draw about 40" of line on the stave before it runs out! I have to bite the bullet and feed it to the fire, no bows in there for me!
But that is ash, with Osage your mileage may vary. If you have any concerns with a split stave following grain, you may want to pass on staves with the bark still on them and go with staves that have been taken to a single growth ring.
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Good grief Mark,
How can you believe anything a person says if they drink Dr. Pepper. lol. keith
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JW, thanks for pointing that out. Point well taken. Even when stave is split it's a good idea to follow that long. grain when drawing your pencil line. :) Jawge
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ash does not have a very strong longututal grain . like cherry,, what I mean by that is that they will not follow the grain as osage, osage has a very strong grain and is very perdiciable, I have split many ash and cherry and sometimes cedar and they will split cross grain, I have seen this in some hickory before,but it is rare,, that is why osage is my favorite wood to split,because it has a very strong grain..
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How about comin over next weekend Yazoo...I got some elm I wanna split, could use your help >:D
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Mike,
I think you have a good point on early to late ratios. Too thick of early means the over all mass of the stave is occupied by less than dense wood. Having said that, poor osage is probabley as good or better than most woods that are out there. The right design considerations would be more critical than with regular osage. I am living proof that even with some design flaws you can still end up with a good shooter. I love the stuff myself. I too have been blessed to not have to deal much with bad osage. I still get excited when I cut one down and its got nice evenly spaced 3/16 rings and the early growth is barely a 32nd. It means I can be a little lazy with my ring chasin and still come out ok. Mostly what I try to cut though is whatever is straightest and let the rings fall where they may. So far I have not been dissapointed. Maybe Kansas just won't grow no weak osage, I don't know. Danny