Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => HowTo's and Build-a-longs => Topic started by: 1/2primitive on January 19, 2007, 11:53:16 pm
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I showed this stave earlier, It was just roughed out, no more work to it at that point. Micky Lotz gave this peice to me at Mojam last year, and I wanted to give Hedge a try, so I started to get at it, but I lost determination because of all the mistakes I made, I didn't know what I was doing. I treated it like a board, bad idea. But when I first showed it, someone told me, "It doesn't take much osage to build a bow." I'm counting on that a lot.
Here is is how it was roughed out.
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I'll continue this tomorrow
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Hey 1/2primitive, looks "not to bad" to me. Should make a fine looking bow when done. Where are you located? Your stats. are not filled in with that info. Maybe there is someone near you to advise you. Us Osage novices need all the help we can get.
Dick Bernier
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Yes, this is going to be helpful - I have several sage quarter logs with some character and am just starting to get the jest of how to begin, for instance leaving a little wood around those knots on the edge. Don't have a band saw yet, been using a table saw to take off big meat and wind up ripping straight through everything - ^&$%#%*1!!!
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You should have a great time. Looks like plenty of wood there. Osage is my favorite.Jawge
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I'm in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, I believe there are a few people around me if I'm not mistaken.
cowboy, what I did (not always the best idea) was I used my draw knife to 'rough' rough it out, I guess. Then after I almost ruined a knot by spliting and getting plenty mad at myself, I switched to my course rasp to finish roughing out and it's in the floor tillering stage right now.
I'm gettin' started early, today's a Saturday! ;D
Sean
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Sean, Looks like you have plenty of wood there. I usually don't shape the handle area until last. I do mark it out so I can keep track of it. This gives me a place to clamp without hurting the bow. What I'd do is to begin to taper from mid limb to the tips. but leave the tips a little wide, for adjustment, until tillering is complete. Use a rasp to do your shaping. It's slower but it will help you concentrate on each stroke so you have better controll. Leave knots along the edge proud and start reducing the belly. When you get to floor tiller stage change over to a scraper to remove wood on the belly unless there is a difficult area(knots & swirls) and use a rasp for those areas.
Most of all, have fun. Posting pics as you go along will help us help you and will help you see things the naked eye misses. Pat
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Looks like your off to a great start. - Brian
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Oops, I forgot to say, it's 62" long. Don't worry, I'm short so I'm only looking for a 23-24" draw length ;) and it's within 1"-1 1/2" wide throughout.
Pat, I now leave shaping the handle for close to last, but like I said I don't know what I was thinking when I started this one.
This is the belly, I like the redish color by the handle and the knots. Something happened and it turned one of the, late? growth rings red.
btw, what growth are the good rings, early? late?
It's bending now. The reflexed limb is on the bottom so it looks like it's not bending at all, but it is.
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Sean - just in case. Where are you located in DFW? I'm in Springtown just a few miles West of Azle on 199, never know we may hook up some time.
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cowboy, I'm north in Flower Mound.
As I said, it's bending, but I need a stronger string for tillering (I need Dacron). So it will be held up for a little while. Sorry.
Sean
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Sean,If you need some string send me a PM.I've got a few rolls of B-50 and fast flight.Also if you have a Wally mart.they have Spider wire in the fishing section.It's darn near the same as fast flight.
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Also tackle shops sell 50 lb. fishing dacron by shakesphere......... its a true 50 lb--use it for a long string....bob
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Or a piece of cheap Walmart clothes line is all I use for a tillering string.
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All right, I decided to do what Marc does and use a steel cable. So, I got started on tillering today, it's bending a little more now.
Any suggestions?
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After tillering for a little while, this is how far I got. Any comments welcome.
I love this wood! I'm looking forward to using it again, it's quickly becoming my favorite bow wood.
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I ain't no pro but I would be real happy with the progress of the left limb and start working the outer third of the right to get that stiff area out.
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I concur with skeaterbait-slowly work on right limb to bring it around to same as left limb.......bob
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Thanks for the comments guys.
I've started doing that, and trying real hard to go slowly.
btw, you don't have to be real nice about it, I can take critisism. ;)
I'm easing the right limb into tiller.
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Now I ran into this situation. Should I weaken the entire stiff limb?
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Looks good so far,it's a little flat on the outer 1/3.I love those knotty starves.Sometime they are hard to see the bend so go slow.I know Jawgs don't like them but at this point I put it on a tillering stick and use a 3 in. straight edge on the belly ,sliding it down and look at the gap to keep it even.Just a thought.
Pappy
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Sean looking good. You need to weaken that left limb some and get it matching the right limb before you go any further. Once the limb tips are moving about 9 or 10 inches it will be time to make up a string 2" shorter than the nock to nock length of the bow and start working at a low brace height. Also be careful of hand placement on the string which may give a false look at where it is really bending. It looks as though you have more pressure on the string towards the side that is bending more. Is that understandable? I think if you just take it nice and slow taking and posting lots of pics and asking advice during the tilleriing process, you'll get a nice bow out of that piece of wood. I like bows with a little character. Sometimes you don't know what all is hiding under the bark though ha ha.
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No, sometimes you don't. This piece looked perfect, with no knots or anything, but I found more knots as I took it down. :D
Yes, I understand that, I'll try to watch it as I continue.
I know this has not been very informative to any others, so I will try to make up for it by doing it now.
Chasing a ring:
On the stave, you will have to remove the bark and sapwood(light colored wood in front of the heart wood, which is the darker, stronger wood in the center)
There are two 'types' of growth rings; 'pithy' weak rings separating the good hard rings. you want the hard growth to be the back of your bow. When taken down to a single growth ring it should look like the first picture. (it also shows how the wood grows around the knots: whatch for this and follow the grain as it does.)
Working around knots:
On this stave, all of the knots were already compensated for by the tree growing around them. All I had to do was cut straght across the belly and they were stiff enough to be safe. If they are straight across on the back, make the bow wider in these areas and the thickness also. The second picture is how my bow looks on the belly.
I hope I've explained this all right and that this will be of help for other people trying they're first osage character bow.
BTW, I'm by no means an expert, if you have anythig to add or think I got wrong in this short explination, say so. I wont be ofended.
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Your doing great Sean, man I love build a longs!!!
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Thanks Dano, I like build-alongs too, there should be more of them (hint, hint).
Sorry I havn'y been able to work on this bow much lately, but I finnaly got some time in.
I've done some more tillering, should I move on to the short string now?
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I would touch up the left limb about 6-8" from tip and then more on to short string........bob--looks good !
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Ah .........I forgot to say touch limb up CAREFULLY !!!!!!.................bob
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Im still learnin, but it looks more to me like a natural hook in the limb, not a tillering problem??? Can someone shed some light on this for me? I cant help but think about reflexin the other limb to match. Would be a cool side profile.lol......Brian
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Sean, I would get the right limb bending a little more at the fade, just before what looks like a knot on the side of the limb. That area may take on major set if it doesn't start working.
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I am not a great builder but some of you guys help watch that area for him right at that knot looks like to me if he has a bad problem it will be right there looks hingee to me
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I didnt see that-Dano is right-just before knot on right limb--dosen't look hinged in pic to me, needs to bend more to match other limb. Posted pics are deceiving-still think left limb needs to touched up-dosen't look like a natural hook to me..........bob
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Hope it is just the picture but it lays flat from the handle to the knot and starts a good move from there
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Thanks guys, that's what is why I wanted to a build-along, I never see these things and I need a little help for now. I didn't notice those things. I'll work on it tomorrow in those areas and make a string stong enough for it with the dacron fishing string I got (per Bob, thanks!).
Sean
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O yeah, kaon, it does have about an inch of natual reflex and recurve, so it won't look like perfect tiller but the reflex might throw you off.
And the knots all have the wood sweeping up around them, so even if I keep them stiff, they'll look hinged. Right now, the knots have an extra growth ring on the belly as well as the natural wood thikening around them. I'm not terribly worried about them being overstressed.
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About the reflex, the stiff limb has most of it in the area that looks stiff. So I'm thinking that it should be left slightly stiff because of that? Here'a a picture of it at rest. Tell me what you think.
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If it were me Sean, I would induce the same reflex on the other limb.
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Yup-agree with Dano...................bob
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After a failed reflex atemt, I at least gave the other limb the same recuve. Here are two pictures of the bow, one of it....just sitting there I guess, and another of it bending after the recurve. I think it changed the tiller a bit.
And I did a little tillering. Now the limb that was stiff is the opposite. Go figure.
Sean
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She looks pretty good Sean, your ready for a short string me thinks.
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Looking at it, I thought it looked like the outer right limb was a tad stiff, from between the two knots outward. Should I weaken it a little?
You know, this is really a build-along, everyone is pitching in. Thanks for all the help!
Sean
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Sean I would start narrowing the limbs width to get the tips bending more.I've ruined enough sage to learn a little.Your doing good,just take it slow.
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Looking good Sean. You're putting your feet to good use there :)
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Like Dano said, I'd short string it to about 4"brace height. That will tell you if everything is tracking OK and it will give you a more realistic bend than the long string from now on. And like Ray said, start tapering the width at the tips. I like to keep the tips thick but narrow the width to reduce the physical weight of the tips without reducing the strength. With osage you can get those tips pretty narrow. Once you get her close to full draw, take your tip width down to 3/8".
She's coming along nicely. Keep up the good work but take it slow. From now on every curl will make a differance. Pat
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All right, I narrowed the tips and filed new nocks, but I can't string it. :-[ Problem. >:(
I acually leaned all my weight on the bow, and I didn't even get it up to brace hight
Sean
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Yer like me eh we need to eat more and bulk up some ;D
Can't help ya any only offer my support for a job well done, yer gonna have sweet bow
as a reward for your patience. Can't wait to see the finished product.
Dana
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Sean, Time to take a little more "meat" off that bow. Sounds like it is still too strong. Pat
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Have not seen anything on this one for awhile just wondering how it is going
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I'm going to order some dacron, all of my strings either break or streach to much. :P
I got some dacron that was originally for fishing and made a couple of strings, but it streaches way more than even my hemp ones.
Sean
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Sean ---You need to get Micron Dacron--I have it and it does not stretch-I have 50 lb.--didn't mean to steer you wrong if thats what you think...bob
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I got 20 lb. test, thinking it would be strong enough for my needs at a very small diameter, but I was wrong. I'll just get some that's meant for making bowstrings.
Sean
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I finnaly ordered the dacron, it's the typical bowstring kind, how may strands should a bowstring be for a 40-45 lb. bow?
Sean
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If'n your tieng flemish twist three ply I always tie 3, 4 ply bundles or a 12 strand string for my wifes 40 lb curve and 15 strand for my 45-60 lb bows. You'll have better luck now! :)
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Sean (IMO)=IN MY OPINION don't be in to big of a hurry to get a string on her.
I generally get my limbs on a short string working to roughly 25". If you put strain on the limbs in early tiller stages you may induce more set(string follow) in your limbs.
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All right, work has commenced! I will most likely post pictures of my progress later this eveing.
Sean
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Well Sean, congragulations on your bow. I'm an old Texas boy. I live about 20miles South of Longview, If you know where that is. I too like that yeller wood I have several bows made of that osage. I got several in the works now. I haven't made me a character bow yet. I got me a stave split and ready to start on. Good luck post some more pictures. Oh ya make you a stringer to string that bow, some don't use them but I like them. Chuck
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Thanks chuck, how would I make a stringer?
Sean
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Sean looks that right limb needs to bend a bit more closer to the handle. But you need to make sure the knotted area. Looks like a tough stave but I know you'll put your best foot forward. :) Jawge
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Here it is after a night's work. I know it's not perfect, but I worked on it a while and decided to call it a night. It's bending at about 40lb at approximatly 10-11". It's getting there!
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Sean, That's looking good. Pat
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All right, I got it bending up to and a past brace hight, I'll try to string it tomorrow. I gave it a quick try tonight, but it still streached too much even though I have a 22 strand dacron string. >:(
Sean
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That first bracing at a low brace height can be difficult...especially with a new string. Try to prestretch the string. Do you have a stringer? Pat
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No, I don't, how would I make one?
Sean
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Maybe GregB will show up ,he makes some nice ones.
Pappy
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Well, if anyone has any ideas for stringers, I'm open to them.
Sean
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Here is the thread were Marc St Louis posted pics of his. There are two of them I think, I had a few questions so if you read all of Marc's posts you will see how to use them. Justin
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Where? :D ;)
Sean
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Just wanted to say I really enjoy this thread and ant wait for the outcome
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The type of stringer I'm talking about is a long cord with leather(or whatever) cups on each end that slip over each tip of the bow. You stand on the middle of the cord and pull up on the bow's handle to make the limbs bend enough to slide the string loop over the top end string nock. 3Rivers, and other archery suppliers offer these.
I believe the type Marc has is a static wood platform with moveable pegs to hold the limbs at differant stages of being bent. With this type stringer, a bow of practically any draw weight can be braced by one person. Unless you are building 100# bows, this type is probably overkill.
With the addition of an extra set of string groover towards the end of each tip, a simple cord with a loop in each end will work as a stringer. Pat
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Sorry 1/2P I dont know how I lost the link, I know I put it in there. http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,1330.0.html
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Thanks for the help. I'll probably work on making a stringer soon, it'll make my life easier, lol. I decided to try stringing it one more time, I made the string shorter and bent it with my knee. I finally got it strung. I wont string it again untill I work it a little more.
Here it is at first brace. I believe there is a hinge in the left limb.
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When I use a stringer, this is the type I use. I use the templates to mark the leather, for cutting out the stringer and punching holes so I can make my own. T
he longer pocket goes on the lower limb, with the shorter pocket leaving the top limb string grooves free.
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Thanks Greg, what did you use for the cord? I'm going to make one of those as soon as possible.
Sean
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It is parachute cord, but any cord with good strength will do.
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Thanks for posting those pic's Greg! It all makes perfect sense now.
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I worked it some, here it is braced afterwords. What do you think? Now I don't want, "It's fine, it'll work". Look closely. Tell me what you think. Really. Do you think I should draw it some more? This is my least favorite part in tillering. I always feel like it's going to break at this point. ::)
Sean
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O, Greg, how would I sew the pieces of the stringer together?
Sean
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Looks good to me. I would draw it some more. Maybe a pic or two during draw and the guys that know what they are doing (not me) can help you out a little.
I use a string like Greg has for a long tillering string. I guess I could just string it on the tree while it is drawn. Justin
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Sean, With wood bows, you can't tell a lot about the tiller just from a braced pic. You can only really tell about proper tiller at full draw. At brace you can tell if the string is lining up properly and if the limbs are bending smoothly and somewhat even.
The limb on the right looks a bit stronger at brace. How far have you pulled the bow? What you can do now is pull it to your draw weight(no farther) and see how far you have to pull to get there. Pat
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GregB, could you show the back side of your stringer? I can't tell where the cord runs from the pics. Thanks
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Sean, the templates are laminated plastic so that they flex if need be but can use to place on leather and mark holes. I use a leather rotary punch for punching the holes in the leather. The larger holes in the template are where the actual cord goes through. The smaller holes are for the stitching. I use bow serving material due to it's strength to stitch the pieces together. Craft shops such as Hobby Lobby have leather punches, large threading needles, etc. available.
Agbower, I'll post the back side of the stringers this afternoon when I get home from work. This design is a little more complicated then some I've seen, but I like how it performs. ;)
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I almost got it to full draw today, sorry I didn't post my progress, I had fun tillering it and didn't want to stop. :D The outer top limb looks stiff, but it origionaly had reflex, so it is bending. How is it? btw, yes, I do like my T-shirt. ;D
Sean
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Agbower, here are the pics on the stringer. Let me know if you need any further information...
Sean, the bow is looking good...I'm in agreement with you that the outer limbs could bend more other then leaving the last 6-8" stiff.
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Maybe this will help...
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Thanks Greg, could you show me which holes the thread goes through (well, in which order) when you sew them together?
I got it to full draw, working the outer limb on the top a little, I think I will keep it where it is right now as it is about 45lb at my draw leangth (I want it to be between 40-45lb). As I said earlier, the limb had slight reflex in it to begin with so I think it would be all right being a little stiff?
Lastly, a question about one of the knots. It is mostly rotten and I've heard that if they are it would be best to drill them out. So, do you think I should try it?
Sean
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Sean, Show us a pic of the knot. With some knots you can just pick out the doudy stuff. The wood compensated for the limb(knot) with extra wood around it. If small and not sound you can fill with super glue and if big enough with fine saw dust and super glue.
Your tiller looks good. She's coming along nicely. Pat
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Sean, the long piece of leather after it is cut out and holes punched in it will fold in have where the V comes to a point. The small diameter holes will then align with each other for you to thread through. I start at one end with my thread and needle, and thread it through from side to side until you get to the other end then I reverse directions and go back to where I started. I might go full length back and forth several times keeping the thread tight and the leather pressed together to ensure the bind is good and strong. The end tabs fold over to align with the other holes. Thread them together the same. I forgot to place the small rectangular piece with four holes in the last picture. I had it in the previous one. It attaches to the back of the lower limb pocket as seen in the assembled stringer. Hope this explanation helps. Look at the assembled pictures and you should be able to tell how it goes together.
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Got your full draw image set up for March Bow of the Month. Good job.
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Wait! it's not done yet! :D
Sean
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Great work Sean. Anyone who can tiller a bow like that has my respect. Take care.
J. D. Duff
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Thanks for the compliment J.D.
sanding and finishing, then a handle wrap and strike plate are all that's left for me to do! I'm really happy! ;D
Here is the knot I mentioned, drill it out? Or no? It is rotten all the way thorugh, but not so soft that I can dig it out with a knife.
btw, the knot has a lot of extra wood around it, so I think it would be fine if I just left a hole in it. More character right? :D
Sean
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I decided to dig it out and leave the hole, it's thick enough there to be safe and it looks real neat that way.
I just wanted to say I shaped the handle and started shooting it in, and wow! It's definitely the best bow I own. It's fast, not much hand shock, and it shoots a Mulefat arrow (kind if a test shaft to see how I liked mulefat) I made very accurately. I'm happy with it. I'll most likely use this bow for hunting this fall.
Sean
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And another quick update, rough sanding; done. Final sanding; in progress. I'll probably put the first coat of finish on it tonight.
Sean
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Good choice on the knot. Keep up the good work.
J. D. Duff
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Thanks J.D.
After sanding, the bow came out slightly underwieght, so I'll be reflexing it a little tonight. How much should I reflex it if I want the wieght to raise about 6-7lb?
I've done three quick updates right in a row now. ::) :D
Sean
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If it were my bow I would shoot it in a little and get those limbs good and exercised, then heat treat the limbs. I have had great success with doing it that way. I think heat treating about 1 1/2" into it will add 6-7#. Justin
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All right, I've been doing that a little. Maybe I'll do the reflexing tomorrow, after I've shot it in some more.
btw, it's not 7lb underweight, after shooting it and seeing that it was relatively easy to pull, I wanted it to be higher.
Sean
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Its looking good! That knot looks cool, nice place to tie in a wind feather! ;D
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Cool Sean, Looking forward to seeing the finished bow. Pat
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Sean, awesome bow. Congratulations on a job well done. Yes, i love the T shirt. Look at my name. :) Jawge
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Yup tpoof, or a primitive stabilizer. ;D
Sean
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How come I have this big ol smile on my face? ;D
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Very nice Sean,You are doing a great job.I love those knotty bows.Can't wait to see it finished.
Pappy
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Agrees with the rest ;D
Nice job Sean
DanaM
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I'm just about finished, I havn't had much time lately to work on it. There is a problem it's that I tried using Helmsman finish on it, but it wouldn't dry. It was tacky for three days. Does anyone have a suggestion for a finish on Osage?
Sean
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.......If y'all use any varnish , need to go to hardware store and buy a bottle of Japan Dryer............mix with varnish............speeds drying time up considerably..................bob
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Always use true oil on mine
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Bob, it always worked on my other bows, do you think it was the wood? Is Osage an oily wood?
Sean
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............Sean...............yes 'sage is an oily wood, that may be why varnish is taking so long to dry....varnish takes a long time any way.........if its humid where its drying .......look out, will stay "tacky" for what seems forever, Luvs dust too :'(.......bob
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Might just be a bad can of varnish, could have gotten frozen or something. I've used Helmsman spray spar urathane on osage with no problems, it dried really quickly.
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Tru Oil user here. Takes about 20 minutes for a coat to dry. I usually put on 6 coats with light 0000 steel wooling between the last couple of coats.
Been waiting to see finished pics of this bow Sean. Liek waiting for your first child to be born ;)
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Would I be able to get tru oil from Bass Pro Shops?
Sean
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Wal-mart usually has little bottles of tru-oil in the sporting goods deparment, look where they have the gun stuff.
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3 Rivers has it, suspense is killin us old geezers Sean
DanaM
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I'll probably look at Wal-Mart as soon as I can.
Dana, you think it's killing you? I'm the one who has been working on it. ;D ;)
Sean
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I'll just post the finished bow in the next 2-3 days.
Sean
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Just read the whole thread. One of the best I've read in a while too. Nice job Sean. ;D
Cant wait to see the finished bow.
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Well, the final coat of finish is dry. I'll work some more on it today if possible, most likely finishing it up.
Sean
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Sean ,looks great at full draw - good job,can't wait for finished pics.
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All right, the arrow rest is drying and we are going to church tonight, so I'll post it all finished up tomorrow.
Sean
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I finally finished it, sorry it has taken so long! This stave was given to me by Mickey Lotz at last years Mojam, Thanks again Mickey! The bow came out at 43lb.@23", 61"ntn. The extra length keeps string angle low, making the draw nice and smooth. The tips are the narrowest I've made to date, being just barely over 1/4". It's a very fast bow and I'm really happy with it. I didn't want cover up the handle because of the nice colors in it, so I left the handle wrap off. The bow is about 1 1/4" wide for most of the limb (although with all the knots, it's not very uniform). I counted 8 knots in all. I will be shooting this bow a lot. It started out with 1/2 reflex and set is at about 1/4-1/2" after bracing and shooting.
Sean
P.S. Yes those are Osage trees in the backround of the pictures.
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The handle and the big knot that I dug out.
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She's a beauty Sean. You done a good job on a difficult stave. Pat
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way to go sean. awesome workmanship. i wish i had your skills (and courage) ;D
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:o :o Tis a thing of beauty Lad!!! Well done! Waiting on this project has been like waiting for Christmas! A fine present indeed! ;D ;D
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Thanks! I forgot to metion I used Helmsman, but I put it on in thin coats. I couldn't find tru oil at Wal-mart.
Sean
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Awesome job sean on a difficult stave
DanaM
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Excellent job! that was a challanging stave, but you nailed it. That one should be a good friend for many years.
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Man that's a super looking bow. I really enjoyed watching you make this one. keep up the good work....
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Sean...the bow looks awesome! Really really nice job. I knew you had it deep in you when I first saw you trotting up the road at Mojam with that big ol smile on your face. Now you've put a big ol smile on MY face! Good on ya young man. Proud of ya and you deserve to be proud of yourself. Wish there were more young men of your caliber running around. The world would be a much better place.
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Marvelous job there Sean. I am proud of you for doing such a fine job and having the patience to work through it. All things worth having are worth waiting for. Justin
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She's a beauty Sean,excellent job.
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NICE JOB SEAN!!!
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Thanks so much for the nice comments guys, I really appreciate it. I'm working on some arrows for it now!
Sean
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Sean thats a beauty,you have done a fine job.Got to Love those charter bow. ;D
Pappy
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Man, I been offline too long....you really nailed that one down, great job Sean....Brian
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ttt
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Wow :o I just got done reading this and what a great bow Sean.
You have given me insperation to try a character stave.
Thanks for the build along !
FB