Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Lukasz Nawalny on September 06, 2009, 05:45:55 pm

Title: 150 lb yew
Post by: Lukasz Nawalny on September 06, 2009, 05:45:55 pm
strongest bow in my career , over 150 lb at 28" , baltic yew. 189 cm , string follow after hard tillering 1/2 inch.

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Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: zeNBowyer on September 06, 2009, 08:27:06 pm
That's  a  beauty,  look  forward  to  seeing  a  video  of  you  shooting  it:)
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: JustAim on September 06, 2009, 09:56:05 pm
WOW!!!! Great Job on that one. My shoulder hurts just thinking about pulling back 150#. Awesome Bow
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Lukasz Nawalny on September 07, 2009, 04:37:25 am
its to strong for me . I can pull on 20 inch  :-\.  I have spoken with polish strongmen Mariusz Pudzianowski , we think about world Guinnes record , he said that he can pull bow over 250 lb. But make such selfbow ?? I think only great quality yew can take this. In Europe yew with over 30 rings per inch without knots is very rare. So This challenge can be hard to make. I think about hickory..
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: heavybow on September 07, 2009, 04:53:52 am
on sale ebay uk.
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Del the cat on September 07, 2009, 05:35:42 am
What is that weird binding on the tip of one limb?
Del
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Del the cat on September 07, 2009, 05:37:00 am
I dout that marius can pull that much. But i have a 290# 66" bow. I live in las vegas in two weeks the expo will be here i will bring bow to see if he can bend it. >:D
Hmmm, is that just made as a show piece? I can't imagine it being used...
Del
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Rod on September 07, 2009, 11:28:24 am
What is that weird binding on the tip of one limb?
Del

Might have something to do with that sharp cornered flat back, where it should be rounded to a circle at the tip...

Rod.
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Yeomanbowman on September 07, 2009, 04:51:36 pm
Henry,
I don't care whether your bow runs supper smooth into the nock, 150Lbs with 1/2" of follow is pretty damn impressive in my book.  Well done!

I dout that marius can pull that much. But i have a 290# 66" bow. I live in las vegas in two weeks the expo will be here i will bring bow to see if he can bend it. >:D
Well,  I'm not so sure Marlon???  Perhaps not at present but with a little training why not?  He is one of the all time great strongmen.  Wether he could bit a barn door at 10 paces is another issue.  Mark Stretton was actually able to hit a straw boss at a reasonable distance with his 200Lber as he's a strong archer not a strongman.  At our last EWBS shoot Al and I were hitting a targets with a fully drawn 170Lb Italian yew warbow and I don't find it hard to believe he's 80Lbs stronger than me. 
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: heavybow on September 07, 2009, 08:57:05 pm
Jermy my bow was made not bend. Yes with training marius should pull beyound 200#. Whats bow poundage over 190# that when poundage begins to build up. Yes henry thats a nice bow. Cheers Marlon ;D
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: woodstick on September 07, 2009, 09:07:01 pm
its all fun and games till that a#@ turns inside out, b krful
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Davepim on September 08, 2009, 04:47:15 am
Yes, well done Henry. Getting a big bow out, like yours, with minimal string follow is brilliant.

Dave
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Rod on September 08, 2009, 08:50:17 am
My point was not about stylistic correctness, but that a sharp edge can concentrate stress in tension to the degree that a lift on the edge is more likely.
Not that this is not necessarily the case, but a distinct possibility.
Perhaps if Bowmanyeoman took a long india rubber eraser that was rectangular in section and bent it then looked at the edge distortion the penny might drop and he would be a little less quick off the mark in making assumptions about my meaning.
FWIW

Rod.

Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Yewboy on September 08, 2009, 08:53:10 am
My point was not about stylistic correctness, but that a sharp edge can concentrate stress in tension to the degree that a lift on the edge is more likely.
Not that this is not necessarily the case, but a distinct possibility.
Perhaps if Bowmanyeoman took a long india rubber eraser that was rectangular in section and bent it then looked at the edge distortion the penny might drop and he would be a little less quick off the mark in making assumptions about my meaning.
FWIW

Rod.


i think Yeomanbowman knows what he is talking about as he is a "Master Bowyer" in the craft guild of traditional bowyers and fletchers!
BTW, that is an excellent bow, well done is all I can say, bows of that weight are very difficult to make so you should be applauded.
Yewboy
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Yeomanbowman on September 08, 2009, 05:49:18 pm
What is that weird binding on the tip of one limb?
Del

Might have something to do with that sharp cornered flat back, where it should be rounded to a circle at the tip...

Rod.

Rod,

I fully agree with you regarding rounding the corners and understand what you are saying. I'm also familiar with the source of your analogy about the rubber (page 59 of TBB3) .  However, the above posting was you're first responce to Henry's bow and I feel that your comments (whilst correct) were not balanced as all you did was point out the negative and not it's many positives.  As a Moderator being balanced is incumbent upon you, surely?  I said it before and I'll say it again 150Lbs and 1/2" of string follow is impressive and the proof of the pudding is in the eating.  Something must be right, yes? 
For what is worth I think it is you who has made an incorrect assumption that I do not understand the concentration of stress with a back of this shape.  For further clarification I do not make my bows this way either.  I have made a self yew longbow that held the FITA unlimited world record and this did not have a square edged back.  Another of my laminated longbows holds the current FITA world record in this class and this is not square cornered.  As Yewboy kindly points out I an also proudly a Guild bowyer.

Rod, if you make and post a 150+lbs yew selfbow with 1/2" of follow I'll promise to try and find good points :)
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: adb on September 09, 2009, 12:09:06 am
A nice bow indeed. 1/2" of set at that draw is very impressive. It doesn't look like it's being drawn very far on the tiller stick, and why is it on a tiller stick anyway? At what draw is it making 150#? Also, what's up with the hemp wrap under the top(?) nock? Is there a flaw? Someone drawing this bow to 30-32" would be very nice to see.
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Lukasz Nawalny on September 09, 2009, 04:36:39 am
I dont know english very good , so I dont know exactly what are you talking about. Near one of nocks was little cavity in sapwood , and wood loks a little to week for me.  by this draw weight I want to sure , that everything will be ok , so such reinforcement. Bow was tillered to 28" - 189 cm is full lengt but only 179 between nocks. On foto is pull on 25 " . I dont like make fotos with full draw such bows on tillering tree - before I make good foto - could be last about 30 seconds and it is to long for such bow in full draw - and nobody can pull this bow in my neighborhood. You say that near nocks should be round cross secion or all bow should have round section ?
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Marc St Louis on September 09, 2009, 01:49:54 pm

Rod, if you make and post a 150+lbs yew selfbow with 1/2" of follow I'll promise to try and find good points :)

The fact that the bow is 75" long and only tillered to 28" makes a difference on the string follow here.  Tillering it to a longer draw length will add a fair bit of set

Henry: Having square edges on the back is not a good thing. 

P.S.  Nice bow by the way.  I know making a heavy draw weight bow is not an easy thing to do
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Lukasz Nawalny on September 09, 2009, 02:08:34 pm
ok , not good , but why ? I dont read book about bow making - in polish we have no such books and my english is not very good, so Im happy to know yours opinion. I have made few yew longbow with oval cross secion and in my opinion such secion make bow a little more string follow prone . Maybe in pacific yew with thin sapwood we have other situation?
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Marc St Louis on September 09, 2009, 10:48:48 pm
Henry
A square edge on the back is much more likely to pull a splinter
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Rod on September 14, 2009, 07:28:09 am
Actually the source of my comment about bending an eraser was doing so many years ago, as I'm sure many of us did at school.
I did not immediately make the connection, until one or two sharp edged bows broke by lifting at the corners, where a bow with rounded corners did not.
This was subsequently reinforced by two gentlemen of my acquaintance who are, but would never claim to be "master bowyers".
Quite a few years subsequently it was interesting but not surprising to read the item to which you refer in TTBB.

I note your comments about balance, and will only say that there is no shortage of positive comment on this particular thread and I did not in this instance choose to add to it.

Since I have no use for a 150 lb bow at this time, it may be a long wait.
But if you care to introduce yourself at an NFAS meeting I would be happy to shoot with you.
I still take the odd Sunday off and get out occasionally.

Rod.


Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Pat B on September 14, 2009, 06:01:25 pm
Nice looking bow Henry. I made a 95#@30" yew bow a few years ago but I could not pull it. ::)  I gave it back to the guy that gave me the stave. ;)
   If you round the edged along the back it will add some protection from raising a splinter and should not reduce the weight at all. That area, along the edges is dead weight on a bow. A good rule of thumb is ..."the diameter of a pea"..1/4" or less. Generally I will use my scraper to remove the very edge with one scrape and then one scrape just below that one and another just above. A light sanding will smooth to a nice rounded edge.
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Lukasz Nawalny on September 15, 2009, 05:05:22 am
ok , thanks.
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Rod on September 15, 2009, 08:00:32 am
The "diameter of a small pea" would typically apply to the radiussing of the corners on a flat backed bow, such as we commonly see with a hickory backing lamination.

I would expect a yew self bow to me more rounded out, but there is also a good deal of variety in known cross sections.

Rod.
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: skerm on September 16, 2009, 11:34:16 am
Actually the source of my comment about bending an eraser was doing so many years ago, as I'm sure many of us did at school.
I did not immediately make the connection, until one or two sharp edged bows broke by lifting at the corners, where a bow with rounded corners did not.
This was subsequently reinforced by two gentlemen of my acquaintance who are, but would never claim to be "master bowyers".
Quite a few years subsequently it was interesting but not surprising to read the item to which you refer in TTBB.

I'd like to add that the discovery of this goes back to the first half of the 19th century. It is also discussed in probably every mechanics book that covers the bending of beams, so it is not really a great new discovery.
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Yeomanbowman on November 05, 2009, 05:58:11 pm
I think providing actual historical evidence is always useful. This an image on a Mary Rose bow raised by the Deane Bros.  The sap has turned the same colour as the belly

(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q280/yeomanbowman/Image0074-2.jpg)
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q280/yeomanbowman/Image0073-1.jpg)

It shows the work of, I assume we would all agree, a Master Boyer who has left the edge of his bow quite sharp, as Henry has.  I don't make my self-bows this way but if the gentleman who made it were alive today I don't think I'd be so presumptuousness as to correct him  :D.
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Keenan on November 05, 2009, 10:54:52 pm
 Very nice bow Henry. I have had some "war bow" staves just can't get myself to stop at that stage and see if they'll hold up at fulldraw. To have that little of set is quite an accomplishment
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Aries on November 15, 2009, 11:30:45 pm
Thats rediculous weight :o. how fast are these bows that are 150#+ really? do they rely on speed or just their ability to shoot a heavy arrow? whats the deal with the high poundage
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: adb on November 16, 2009, 10:53:27 am
It takes a heavy bow with high draw weight to shoot a heavy arrow any sort of distance. A 60+ gram arrow 200 yards is a beginning minimum. A 1/4 pound arrow 200+ yards is exceptional.
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: zeNBowyer on November 16, 2009, 03:21:50 pm
At  #150 it  must  be  like  launching  a  javelin:)
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Rod on December 04, 2009, 02:35:39 pm
I'd like to hear how it is shooting since I am interested in the performance of Baltic yew.
In some quarters it is given a bad name but i would not be surprised if a majority of the livery bows made in Lincoln were of baltic yew shipped in through Boston and carried up the Witham to Brayford Pool.
Any info on cast and arrow weights etc. would be appreciated.

Rod.
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Lukasz Nawalny on December 05, 2009, 12:56:36 pm
I see that my sharp edges make your worry :) It is possible that you have right but for this time I have very small % wodden  longbows brakage. I think not more like 4 maybe 5 %. Maybe if I will make round edges this % will be smaller ? Possible but not for sure  ;). I have made over 50 longbows from baltic yew. I must say - we have few types of this yew - very hard , other is very light another with not dense growth rings soft and elastic. Now I have my personal target bow from this very light wood - bow mass is around 300 gram , I dont seen such light longbow for this time , very fast - with only 42 lb about 175 fps. I dont know how fair can this 150 lb shoot , but my one of best baltic yew " warbows" 75 lb with 55 / 60 gram war arrow shoot over 220 meters - about 250 yards.

here pictures with medeieval longbows cross secitions



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Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Jaro on December 07, 2009, 09:44:53 am
Henry, I know preciselly this type of softer and very light yew, it shoots well, but it also does not live long and has tendency to blow up all of sudden.
Anyway this:

but my one of best baltic yew " warbows" 75 lb with 55 / 60 gram war arrow shoot over 220 meters - about 250 yards.

again deserves commentary with words "sanity check" - very good yew bow of 125# and good archer might actually do the distance. To do it with bow of this weight is not physically possible under normall weather conditions (it might be with very strong tailwind).
Please see results of batsford shot for refference and consider the weights of bows in relation to the performance and weight of arrows.
55 gram arrow is 850  grain, more than standard and 60 gram is 925 grain. That is hefty arrow. In other words you are telling that you are shooting 12,3 gr/pound with longbow at 250 yrds. If its not impossible, then its very unparsimonial in the face of other evidence.
It would make you to shoot standard at distance of 300 yrds with self longbow of mere 90# if made out of the same wood, something which is not possible.

J.


Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Lukasz Nawalny on December 07, 2009, 12:41:28 pm
I shoot with my longbow few tousend shoot for this time and in my opinion I will be shoot about 2 seasons on high performance of this bow. This very light yew wood have dense rings and is not soft . Soft sort of Baltic yew have not dense growth rings , this is something other. I dont speak english very well but I understant that you dont belive in this 220 M distance. Well I have witness when I shoot with this bow with 55 g arrow 5 inch feather with light wind that was exactly 222 meter. Arrow speed was very close like in asian laminate bows , here is this bow in action - in second part of this movie we have laminate turkish Grozer with 70 lb. But ofcourse its only words - you dont must to belive ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb4VwqX1Wss
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Del the cat on December 17, 2009, 06:20:51 pm
I shoot with my longbow few tousend shoot for this time and in my opinion I will be shoot about 2 seasons on high performance of this bow. This very light yew wood have dense rings and is not soft . Soft sort of Baltic yew have not dense growth rings , this is something other. I dont speak english very well but I understant that you dont belive in this 220 M distance. Well I have witness when I shoot with this bow with 55 g arrow 5 inch feather with light wind that was exactly 222 meter. Arrow speed was very close like in asian laminate bows , here is this bow in action - in second part of this movie we have laminate turkish Grozer with 70 lb. But ofcourse its only words - you dont must to belive ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb4VwqX1Wss
I don't see any problem with your claim, my 75 lb longbow of English Yew (and we all hear you can't make bows of English Yew ::) )will shoot about 220yards* with a regular arrow which I use for field shooting.
* Paced out, but I know my paces are a pretty good yard from pacing measured distances on the golf course. The last bow I made (English Yew Longbow) 44 lb @ 27" would shoot one of my lighter 28" arrows 180yards, and I daresay it would easilly draw to 29"-30" if asked.
Del
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Jaro on December 21, 2009, 09:22:53 am
Del - since we dont know what weight is your "regular" arrow for field shooting we cannot make any assumptions, but if it is built on 11/32" shaft, it wont be likelly over 500 grain.

To enlighten you, this guy claims to shoot an arrow, which is heavier than BLBS Standard (60 gram - more like livery) 250 yards with a bow of 75#. Minute look at results of batsford flight shot and "Standard" shows that only 4 people, arguably of the best english heavy archers shot that distance with bow 130# and 140# respectivelly. Even though I would gladly cut him some slack for less fletch on his arrows than standard prescribes, one doesnt need to be bloodhound to smell bullshit.
He is basically claiming that his 75# bow is shooting 185-190 fps with 13 grain/pound, I hope you can see the nonsense.

Having seen shoot some of the better longbowmen at hand, with bows of this weight in very good yew bests of Boyton made I can safelly claim that the bow is either not 75# or his arrow is at least one third lighter than he claims (and even so 250 yards will be rather nice) or they didnt measured the distance correctly.

J.
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: adb on December 21, 2009, 01:21:04 pm
I think a lot of people tend to over estimate distance. I know I have. You look across a field and see a deer, and you think "holy cow, that thing is at least 300 yards away", but when you pace it off, it's more like 200 yards. I think this could possibly be the case, if the shooter was just "eye-balling" the distance. 250 yards with 60+ gram arrows and a 75# bow seems unlikely.
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Del the cat on December 21, 2009, 05:04:34 pm
Del - since we dont know what weight is your "regular" arrow for field shooting we cannot make any assumptions, but if it is built on 11/32" shaft, it wont be likelly over 500 grain.

To enlighten you, this guy claims to shoot an arrow, which is heavier than BLBS Standard (60 gram - more like livery) 250 yards with a bow of 75#. Minute look at results of batsford flight shot and "Standard" shows that only 4 people, arguably of the best english heavy archers shot that distance with bow 130# and 140# respectivelly. Even though I would gladly cut him some slack for less fletch on his arrows than standard prescribes, one doesnt need to be bloodhound to smell bullshit.
He is basically claiming that his 75# bow is shooting 185-190 fps with 13 grain/pound, I hope you can see the nonsense.

Having seen shoot some of the better longbowmen at hand, with bows of this weight in very good yew bests of Boyton made I can safelly claim that the bow is either not 75# or his arrow is at least one third lighter than he claims (and even so 250 yards will be rather nice) or they didnt measured the distance correctly.

J.
Maybe there is simply some grain/gram confusion going on here... ? I dunno, it just would seem daft to be shooting such a heavy arrow from a 75 pound bow. (I shalln't insult your intelligence by rambling on about matching arrow weight to bow power)
Del
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Davepim on December 22, 2009, 06:06:02 am
I think a lot of people tend to over estimate distance. I know I have. You look across a field and see a deer, and you think "holy cow, that thing is at least 300 yards away", but when you pace it off, it's more like 200 yards. I think this could possibly be the case, if the shooter was just "eye-balling" the distance. 250 yards with 60+ gram arrows and a 75# bow seems unlikely.

adb,
    Humans are very poor at putting numbers to distances; tests done time and time again show that even for short distances, people are 10-20% out in their estimation. This is why the target archery community have such trouble over field courses, (of the FITA variety) even though there are only 4 different sizes of targets, and have to resort to "cheating" by using euclidean geometry to measure the distances. Instinctive archers invariably have the advantage here.

Dave
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: adb on December 22, 2009, 01:06:05 pm
I agree. 8)
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Rod on January 12, 2010, 02:11:46 pm
As every instinctive archer knows very well, there are only two distances.....    ::)

Rod.
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: adb on January 12, 2010, 04:39:31 pm
... and those are??  ???
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: Oorlogsboog on January 12, 2010, 07:03:10 pm
... and those are??  ???

... Far away and the stuff between there and... here?  ;D
Title: Re: 150 lb yew
Post by: recurve shooter on January 22, 2010, 11:02:52 am
i wanna try to pull one of these things one day.