Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: makenzie71 on November 10, 2009, 05:59:30 pm
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Of course I'm building board bows, not from a proper stave, but I'm using good pieces...I only really get irritated when I have a PERFECT grain and I get the same results. The bow I'm working on right now is still 1.75" at the widest, and comes down to .625" at the nocks. Backed with bamboo. It pulls 58lbs at 29" (my scale may be reading about 5lbs light, though). Tiller is smooth, stiff ends, so I know a lot of the force is put mid-limb.
My issue is that every red oak bow I've made...and I've made lots of different kinds...has developed set. I had one have so much that it seemed to pull the recurve out of the ends.
I've never tried belly tempering. Could this help? Is it just a part of working with red oak?
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you can't belly temper it now...not from my experience. It causes the backing to come off. I mean, you COULD do it. Remove the backing, clean it all up, temper the belly into reflex...but why not just make a new one?
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well from what ive heard red oak isnt great for high poundage bows, so i would try lowering draw weight, but im guessing you want to keep that high.How long are your stiff ends?you could try shortening them(i think?).Also, since alot of the force is put mid-limb, try making it bend more near handle i guess is what i would try.You could also make a bow a bit longer so you would have more limb length to work with. And i dont really know anything about belly tempering so i cant actually answer you there. and i have also heard that red oak does take a fair bit of set/string follow. just my thoughts, hope it you find an answer
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My board bows are selfbows and take less set than stave bows. If your bows show < 2 in don't worry about it. Set happens. :) Jawge
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That's great jawge. Set happens- that should be the PA shirt moto ;D
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It's almost always less than 2"...my limit is 2.5". If it gets past that point, draw weight gets taken down and the ends are trimmed until set is tolerable.
I wasn't clear...I wasn't really wanting to fix THIS bow. A made bow you can't do much with. I'm just looking for things I might try with the next.
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Red Oak bows do not have to have string follow !!!!!!
This one in particular is 66" ntn 58 # @ 27 " and has settled in perfectly strait, ...can ask Craig "Westcoast bowyer " that was here and I took this particular bow out for a hunt with him
........Nicely tempered and cotton backed
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Tiger%20Oak/004-1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Tiger%20Oak/001-1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Tiger%20Oak/002-1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Tiger%20Oak/008-1.jpg)
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manny's just showin off
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well from what ive heard red oak isnt great for high poundage bows, so i would try lowering draw weight, but im guessing you want to keep that high.How long are your stiff ends?you could try shortening them(i think?).Also, since alot of the force is put mid-limb, try making it bend more near handle i guess is what i would try.You could also make a bow a bit longer so you would have more limb length to work with. And i dont really know anything about belly tempering so i cant actually answer you there. and i have also heard that red oak does take a fair bit of set/string follow. just my thoughts, hope it you find an answer
:D .....it's just when I see post like this that make me feel like answering some ;D
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Manny, all bows take set. Not all show string follow. :) Jawge
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Ho yeah George I did temper this one into 2" of reflex, ...so 2" of set, 0 string follow ;D
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well from what ive heard red oak isnt great for high poundage bows, so i would try lowering draw weight, but im guessing you want to keep that high.How long are your stiff ends?you could try shortening them(i think?).Also, since alot of the force is put mid-limb, try making it bend more near handle i guess is what i would try.You could also make a bow a bit longer so you would have more limb length to work with. And i dont really know anything about belly tempering so i cant actually answer you there. and i have also heard that red oak does take a fair bit of set/string follow. just my thoughts, hope it you find an answer
:D .....it's just when I see post like this that make me feel like answering some ;D
all good, bro...you are a singular talent on this site and i have learned lots from your posts. Love to try guava. Maybe in the new year you wanna trade for some pacific yew? I just pulled in a bunch of logs.
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+1 on belly tempering
If you backed red oak with Bamboo, wouldn't it be overpowered and crush the belly more than necessary? Tiller shape is a big one too. Any set close to the handle is greatly multiplied near the tips.
It's almost always less than 2"...my limit is 2.5". If it gets past that point, draw weight gets taken down and the ends are trimmed until set is tolerable.
I'm curious as to how this can work. I thought set was fairly permanent and that working a bow down to a lower draw weight would actually increase set. This has to do with the tillering maxim of never pulling a bow more than its intended draw weight. I might be missing out completely on some concept here.
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I recently made a red oak board bow that took no string follow... Heated around 3 inches of reflex at floor-tiller stage so it took 3 inches of set with zero string follow. This was my father's bow.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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If you backed red oak with Bamboo, wouldn't it be overpowered and crush the belly more than necessary? Tiller shape is a big one too. Any set close to the handle is greatly multiplied near the tips.
This is my first time to back red oak with bamboo. It seems to be holding just fine, but I've only fired a few arrows with it thus far. I really like the aesthetic combination so I'm hoping it'll hold up.
I'm curious as to how this can work. I thought set was fairly permanent and that working a bow down to a lower draw weight would actually increase set. This has to do with the tillering maxim of never pulling a bow more than its intended draw weight. I might be missing out completely on some concept here.
Look at the profile for a bow with lots of set. It'll have a crescent shape, with the tips being the highest points from level. If you trim the ends, the highest points will be closer to level. Lightening the pull and reducing the draw length help prevent set from increasing. The ones I have to trim down I usually sell off to be youth bows.
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Love to try guava. Maybe in the new year you wanna trade for some pacific yew? I just pulled in a bunch of logs.
I'll trade for YEW anyday,........Yew is by far my favorite wood ;)
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okay manny...when i get back from the UK we can sort something out...think next March.
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will one of you guys explain exactly how you dry-heat temper the bow into reflex at the floor tillering stage?
do i lay it on the bench, back down, and raise up the handle portion by putting blocks under it, then heating the limbs?
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will one of you guys explain exactly how you dry-heat temper the bow into reflex at the floor tillering stage?
do i lay it on the bench, back down, and raise up the handle portion by putting blocks under it, then heating the limbs?
that can work, yes.
go to buildalongs...look for "curly BBO"...i think there's some good photos there. Also, search "oak recurves" i might have put some heat temper pics in.
BUT!!!!! Floor tiller stage is too soon, IMO. Get the thing smoothly drawing to 20 or 24 with a brace height of 4", and THEN temper it flat or into a little reflex. That is when you retain the maximum benefits from this woodworking technique.
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you can just build a form from a 2x6 and use c-clamps and a heat gun to induce reflex.
heres a linky...
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,15140.0.html
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BUT!!!!! Floor tiller stage is too soon, IMO. Get the thing smoothly drawing to 20 or 24 with a brace height of 4", and THEN temper it flat or into a little reflex. That is when you retain the maximum benefits from this woodworking technique.
i'm WAY to much of an amateur bowyer to not back every bow i attempt. so i gotta reflex first, then back, then tiller. i guess i could tiller first, then reflex, then back it, but i'm nervous about bending an unbacked piece at my skill level.
i not only back every bow, i end up breaking most anyways. i'm on #6, and i think i broke 4 so far.
thanks tho guys, appreciate the caul advice, i'll try that.
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Innocente,
Yes it is a good idea to tiller first before backing. Perry reflex way. I know Pat B advised me to do that before when i was making laminates.
You can also just cook the thing dead straight, and the tempering will take, hold, and give you a reduced-mass bow of greater draw weight and resilience.
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My take on tempering is that,........ it helps limit cells crushing.
Therefore I like to do my first tempering and reflexing as soon as I feel the limbs a balanced ( I want those wood cells to keep the most integrity possible )
I than temper again at 20" and one more time one inch before full draw, but neither this 2 times I try reflex the bow.
........I did temper TB III cloth backed bows without the cloth coming off
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don't listen to him, these surfers just got too much time on their hands.
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...but neither this 2 times I try reflex the bow...
Hey Manny, not sure what you meant there. The 2nd and 3rd time you also temper with reflex? Or you only temper with a reflex the first time and none the 2 and 3 tempers (ie no cauls or limb bending during tempering at all)? Thanks for clarifying - I'm a little slow today. :)
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I induce reflex the 1st time I temper, the following sessions the bow is clamped at whatever reflex it has at that time of the tillering process but I don't try to rereflex it, ...at this stage it has taken some set so I don't see much point in forcing reflex to it ;D
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don't listen to him, these surfers just got too much time on their hands.
...wish I had more time ;D , haven't worked on a bow in months ::)
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Great, thanks. I thought that's what you meant but just wanted to be sure.
On one bow I did retemper one limb as it had took excessive set relative to the other and it actually seemed to hold up ok. But that was more of an effort to save it rather than a preferred method of work.
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If I remember correctly TBB4 says something about if a bow takes too much set, you can sinew the belly and make it the back- then retiller. Anyone ever tried this?
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i didn't read every post, so i will risk saying, to limit set you must have red oak tillered very well. Manny's bow is a fine example. Just from the braced profile you can see how well its tillered. I think that has more to do with it than tempering. I recently found a great red oak board while buying some poplar (arrow wood) at Lowes, it made a great bow and took only about an inch of set with no temping. I shot basketballs out of the air with it all day. I have made only a few red oak bows and truth be told its not my favorite. Those were made when i was just starting out. Now that i have a better idea of what to do, red oak makes a fine bow. In fact that one is one of my favorites. I'll be posting it tomorrow along with a hickory bow.