Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Innocente on November 26, 2009, 11:40:15 am
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help!
newbie bowyer here, just completed longbow #8 and i've broken 5 in a row now. 3 were red oak (and all had red oak glue on handles), 1 was birch, (pyramidal design), 1 was maple (also a pyramid), all were board bows, and all were backed. i am cautious selecting boards with good grain and no runoffs, i'm careful tillering. i ALWAYS back my bow. first 2 backed with fiberglass tape, last 3 were backed with linen cloth. i always make them long, 68" is the shortest, usually 72" or so.
the most recent explosion was a red oak board with an excellent tight backing of linen using TB II, zero air bubbles. 50# at 29#, 68" NTN, it failed on the range as i pulled the very first arrow back. (it failed SPECTACULARLY) with a loud BOOM followed by shards clattering on the ground.
what am i doing wrong? why do i keep detonating the wood?
any suggestions?
**updated, pics added of the break on this most recent one, also a pre-polyurethaning post tiller practice draw in the yard.
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It is hard to say without seeing pictures. Try posting pictures as you are tillering. Then we might be able to see what is going wrong.
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yeah, there are some really good bowyers on here, and usually if you get pics up, they can diagnose you.
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red oak is NOT premier bow wood. I mean, it can make a bow. But there's plenty of more forgiving wood out there.
It is not necessary to always put on backing. Tillering technique, suiting the style of bow to the material at hand, and due patience all go a long way to helping you make a bow that does not break.
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Pics of you work would be very handy.
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red oak is NOT premier bow wood. I mean, it can make a bow. But there's plenty of more forgiving wood out there.
It is not necessary to always put on backing. Tillering technique, suiting the style of bow to the material at hand, and due patience all go a long way to helping you make a bow that does not break.
not true not true
native people have used it for a long long time
not everyone has access to yew,osage,ipe etc.
native folks have used what was best in their regions for more than one millenia
just because youe have "too much yew" there is no reason to tell someone what they are using is not a good wood for making bows
hell i have read where some master bowyers think yew is inferior because of how soft a wood it is
i dont have acces to yew or osage and have made bows from hickory(alot of the time),red oak (cause its easy to find 1/4 sawn lumber),white oak,ash,hell i even have a sumac stave i
have been saving,hop horn beam.all white woods,which some say are all "inferior woods".
but they work fine for bows,ya just gotta make the bow fit the wood that you are using,you cant take hickory and make the same bow out of it that you would with osage or yew for instance
so its not realy an inferior wood
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Well said sailordad
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Innocente without pics its going to be hard to help. I was a red oak basher too, but i was using the wrong design. Once i started making them 2" wide i was really impressed. I would say red oak is very comparable to ash maybe even maple. Its all about the design guys, not all in the wood!!
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Sulphur is correct. You can make a successful bow from almost any wood if you design the bow appropriately for the wood used.
Pics will really help us help you. ;)
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innocente, make sure you have a design that is compatable with what wood you are using. Jawge or PatB can tell you for almost any wood what design would be best. After i saw Jawge say red oak is fine bow wood over and over i decided to give it another try. he was right. after the last bow i made from it i was so impressed i went to 3 different lowe's and a home depot to find some more good boards. If your having trouble with tillering remember wider and longer designs are more forgiving. I think you've got them long enough, but how wide are you making them??? the main thing is don't give up. check out my build along on youtube for red oak. it might help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37EPS0Xs_Tw
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Innocente,Where do you live? Maybe the woods too dry.. I mention this because there are many variables and often it comes down to staying within the limits of the wood, both in design and what the particular bow can handle.
Also you must realize between all the experienced bowyers here is a bazilllion exploded bows...Many went through what you are right now so what matters most is don't let it bother you, and persistence and not getting too bummed about the failures are two traits most bowyers have in common..
It's a fine line between a sweet shooter and firewood..Sulpher's advice is highly recommended by me..Longer bows are a good idea for beginners...
Rich
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There are 3 important things to consider when making a board bow. 1- grain, 2-grain and 3- grain. More on my site. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
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Inno- I tried 1 board bow and it SUCKED ! Maybe my singular experience but until I started educating myself on WOOD, especially wood in my area did I start having success. In my neck o the woods it's Hackberry, Elm (Cedar), Huisache and Southern Live Oak (if you can find a straight piece). Then it's grain, knots and patience. Tom
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design: i'm making standard red oak bow boards, mostly - 1"x2", (so 1 3/4" wide). i can get ahold of wider, and do a 2, even a 3 inch wide if necessary.
Note on my pics: this break looks like it started (or ended) in my arrow cut out - but my arrow cut out was firmly and safely buried in my riser, and there was no separation of bow wood from riser wood. this is the first break of this kind i've experienced (DRAMATIC! KA BOOM!) except for a few forays into experimental land i've been sticking with a basic sam harper-ish design. this last bow i tried to deviate not a bit, in hopes of making one non broken shooter.
the one potential error i did think of on this one was: made it 68", instead of longer, planned on too long of a draw for that length (29"). i DID carefully exercise between each tillering.
the full draw pic shows (i hope) what i fantasize is a positive tiller for my split finger. (the more i look at it it is WAY too stiff on the lower limb)
in Northern California by the way.
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68"should be plenty for a 29" draw and the tiller looks really good. The picture does make it look like the failure is related to the cut-in shelf. Bad things will happen if the fade/handle design is faulty - I've learned that lesson the hard way. I recommend you avoid cut-in shelfs until you have more experience.
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I'd say the failure occurred because of the abrupt angles of the cut in shelf and because that area is susceptible to lots of stress due to the leverage of the limbs. Your tiller looks good and the bow is plenty long enough to handle your draw. On your next bow, try a built up arrow shelf instead of a cut in shelf or add more wood (overlay) to the back of the bow for more support.
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Your failure was definately from the cut in arrow shelf. Doing that just creates too much of a weak spot. I very rarely cut in an arrow shelf anymore.
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...also, the wood broke along the grain. The break is relatively short and diagonally across the bow at the handle. When building board bows it is very important that the grain runs the length of the bow or if it does have run offs they are not at a sharp angle.
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thanks guys, i feel like i got a better idea of how this one failed. i appreciate all of yer insight.
i'll post me a successful non exploded bow here soon! (or exciting new pics of a new and different failure!)
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Yep, cut out arrow shelf is the culprit.
I prefer to glue an arrow shelf on. I glue on a square piece of wood and shape it to to be an arrow rest.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/arrowrest.jpg)
One thing I see with a lot of glued on rests it the builder leaves a lump under the handle leather. If you feather the added wood into the grip your rest will look like part of the grip once the leather is on.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/snake17.jpg)
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Good job, Scott. I missed it. Looks like the cut in shelf was the culprit. Jawge
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If you want to cut and arrow shelf remember the fades have to be gradual and extend into the actual bow. that way it stops bending in the handle area. I also make my shelf no deeper than a 1/4" from center on board bows. i put a shelf in almost every board bow i make. they are handy. I started one this morning. all the red oak bow talk yesturday got me going. check out this link to sames bamboo/ipe build. he explains glue on risers very well.
http://www.poorfolkbows.com/ipe1.htm
i borrowed this from sams site.
(http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww279/sulphur7/ipe60.jpg)
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Well, glue on an overlay (and maybe don't cut the shelf too rigid next time)!
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medicine is that a purpleheart board bow??? looks great. How do you do that leather handle wrap??
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red oak is NOT premier bow wood. I mean, it can make a bow. But there's plenty of more forgiving wood out there.
It is not necessary to always put on backing. Tillering technique, suiting the style of bow to the material at hand, and due patience all go a long way to helping you make a bow that does not break.
not true not true
native people have used it for a long long time
not everyone has access to yew,osage,ipe etc.
native folks have used what was best in their regions for more than one millenia
just because youe have "too much yew" there is no reason to tell someone what they are using is not a good wood for making bows
hell i have read where some master bowyers think yew is inferior because of how soft a wood it is
i dont have acces to yew or osage and have made bows from hickory(alot of the time),red oak (cause its easy to find 1/4 sawn lumber),white oak,ash,hell i even have a sumac stave i
have been saving,hop horn beam.all white woods,which some say are all "inferior woods".
but they work fine for bows,ya just gotta make the bow fit the wood that you are using,you cant take hickory and make the same bow out of it that you would with osage or yew for instance
so its not realy an inferior wood
Peace, Tim:
All i said was it is not Premier wood. Sorry if I upset you.
Scott
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Marius...Thats a really nice looking Bow there....Purpleheart sure sets it off....especially the Overlays...I like!!!!
As for Red Oak not being a Good Wood....not True in My Findings....I have only had one paddle Bow die made from Red Oak....and that was my Problem....remember what Jawge said....3 rules....1} Grain....2} Grain....3}Grain......it has to be as straight as possible...with little to no Runoff....and they will work fine....Listen to Jawge....He's Da Man ...when it come to Board Bows for Sure........JMO
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that's what i'm saying!!!
any wood where you have to be THAT picky is not premium stuff. That's obvious.
I could be wrong, but i think the reason alot of people start with it is that it's very easy to obtain.
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He is talking about board stock selection being important. That would be just as true if you found a stash of Yew or Osage boards. Maybe more so.
A Red Oak stave is as premium a wood as any.
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you guys are all suffering from stinkin thinkin. red oak is fine. there are many finer woods out there.
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Hey Pat...how Ya doing out there on the East Coast?? How's the Weather treating You???
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I think sulphur is right....the problem wass the cut in shelf, and specialy the fades...it looks to me that the fades are to abrupt, and to short.... and i think it wass happenng a leverage efect there......and the cut in shlef broke.... the tiller lok verry nice...but the problem wass the fades area and that cut in shelf....i think that this type of handle should be made a little longer.... specialy the fades area...and also the bow should not bend at the fades......sorry for my english.... :-[
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LOL, radius, are you stepping on some bow making toes? It's not that those 3 rules of mine only apply to red oak. Rather, they apply to all boards for bows no matter what the wood is. I allow 2 run ups or outs per limbo for a 50-55# board self bow. I look at the face and end grain.
I actually think one of the better wood species in board form is red oak. I've made at least 50 red oak board bows and I've had only one break. But I'm picky with the grain. Once a bowyer learns to read grain its bow maker's heaven. :) Jawge
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thanks guys
red oak because it's available. hard to find good stuff. i'm in Yew land, but it's tough huntin so far. dreaming of the day when i make a nonboard bow!
a short backing strip like you put on looks like a GREAT idea medicine, as does sulphur's recommendation to not exceed a 1/4" cut.
i think the diagonal break i showed was a demonstration of Jawge's 3 principles of the board bow. i thought it looked like a good piece!
and hey jawge: it sounds like YOU need more experience watching red oak board bows explode, i'm gonna need you to come over to my garage for a seminar. it's titled "Watching a grown man cry", and you MUST bring your own first aid kit. i'll supply all the BOOM clatter clatter sound effects.
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hang in there man. when you get that first shooter its gonna be worth the effort.
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I believe George had 14 BOOM clatter clatters before he got a shooter. What George says is definitely from experience. ;) We've all been there and as long as you are learning something from each mishap it isn't a failure. It just means you happened to take a longer road to success. Study the break and determine what went wrong. I still have the first osage selfbow I made(20 years ago) that was over drawn and went Ka Blooy! I study the break on occasion just to reassure myself that it broke right where it should have broke.
On your next bow consider that the fade area of a bow is where most of the stress is. Design your handles to withstand these stresses. Elongate the fades so it is a gradual taper from handle to limb.
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luckily i saved all my failures. listening to you guys dissect my fracture has given me good insight into troubleshooting wood (at least retrospectively!). planning on autopsying my breaks on them to see if i can find their fail points.
right on with that break and learn suggestion, by the way.
just started my next, and i went for longer more gentle tapering fades this time.
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a short backing strip like you put on looks like a GREAT idea medicine, as does sulphur's recommendation to not exceed a 1/4" cut.
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The painted one is the the only full shelf I ever cut; my friend told me to have an overlay or it would be a risky spot there on the backing, no matter how good the grain is! I've used these overlay stripes on backed boardbows a lot!
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hey medicine when you do a short backing strip like that, do you just apply your cloth backing where the backing strip ends or what?
lemme ask that more clearly: if you were to run linen backing over that bow in the pic, would you cover the backing strip with it or start the linen where the backing strip meets the back of the bow?
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I have never done that, but I guess i would run the cloth over the overlay, and even wrap it some so it wouldn't lift.
Has anyone done this before??
(The bows in the pics all had wooden backings.)
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Dang Frank, you put out some nice work!
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medicine wheel, you are very understated but a very good craftsman
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innocente,
i had a lam bow break from the sight window, and thats what i put it down to. it was bending too much through the handle and i didn't have it backed in that area. i made another identical bow without the window, and she still shoots :)
if you've kept your failures its time to put a couple together and make a sleeved takedown. how you'll do that primitively i'm not sure :)
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Thanks guys!
Sorry innocente, didn't mean to hijack your thread!
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Hey I'm a little late in posting my idea, but bear with me. I have build many board bows and have sure broken my share. But what always amazes me, Is when you think you gota beautiful design, the dang thing blows. Anyway, Stay with wider handle if your are going to build a cut in handle. If you build a fiberglass bow they say never cut in near the center line. However we are talking wooden lam bows. No more than an 1/2 an inch or add a shelve, there are many designs. You are never going to center shoot the bow anyway. Now more importantly, extend the top fade out next time , cut you window 1 1/2 inc above the centerline and you should be okay. Most all bows want to bend in the handle , common physics tells me it is going to give at the weekest link. Hope this helps , good luck. Denny check out my web page for examples. jerbowden.net Denny
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denny i'm gonna check that site right now
while i'm at it, feel free to check out nomadarchery.ca
Scott
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the theme to this thread is: how not to break my next one, medicine, that wasn't a hijack, man that was good advice!
denny thanks VERY specific advice on how to cut the shelf. that's exactly what i wanna hear.
i do deeply love the arrow shelf, when it doesn't lead to these breaks. i think my initial error was following Sam Harper - a MUCH more skilled bowyer than i- who skillfully cut his shelf even past the centerline and still made it work. i think i'll cut me an extremely cautious arrow shelf, or just build up a little piece of wood on the side for this next one.
thanks all for the encouragement.
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Glad I could help Denny