Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Kirkll on December 02, 2009, 01:59:30 pm
-
I've got my first self bow project coming up here, and have been reading a bunch of posts trying to get a feel for this adventure while i sharpen up my planes and such.
I've got an Osage stave 65" in length 2" X 2" thickness at the grip, and a good 1.5" X 1.5" at either end. it's definitely cured out well, and i'm looking for suggestions for a relatively simple design for a first time self bow attempt.
any ideas and suggestions would be helpful.
i do have the first 3 volumes of TBB i need to dig out and start studying again. I've spent the last 3 years building quite a few laminated glass bows of various design. So I've got a wee bit of experience going for me.
Thanks, Kirk
-
Kirk, even though the end results are similar the methods of getting there are totally different. I'm sure you have developed an "eye" for tiller and that alone will get you a good ways down the "selfbow" road but self bows and lam bows are not the same cup of tea.
Assuming your draw length is 28" or less you have plenty of wood to make a good hunting weight bow. For your first, go with 1 1/2" at the fades and out 6" to 8" then taper to 1/2" to 3/4" at the tips(for now). Also leave the handle area untouched until your first low brace. Leaving these areas bigger for now will allow for adjustments for string alignment plus the full sized handle area will give you a place to clamp the stave while you work on it. After you get your limbs bending evenly and together, and your string lines up you can shape the handle and tips to suit yourself. You don't need a finished handle or tips to tiller a bow and no sense doing that work until you are sure the bow will make it.
-
Yep, that's what I'd do. I agree with Pat. ;D
-
Don't forget to chase to a heartwood ring. There are buildalongs on my site. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
-
I like to match a stave to one of the bows in the Encyclopedia of Native American Bows, Arrows and Quivers. Recently finished Vol. 1 page 106... turned out pretty well but I can't get pictures taken or posted tonight.
-
thanks for heads up Pat. that's why i'm here, to get some experienced guidance.
George, i believe i'm in pretty good shape with ring chasing on the back of this stave. It looks to me as if DCM prepared it pretty well, and it's ready to start the process of reducing the size and getting a rough profile. reading the grain at the side or edge of the stave, it looks to have a nice consistent ring full length about 3/16ths thick on the back, and width rough cut follows the grain closely too. she's pretty darn straight through the grip and out both ways almost to the tips. one end has a nice looking natural reflex, but the other end i will have my work cut out for me. the last 6" angles off a good 1.5". i'll be fishing for different approaches to that manipulation after i figure out what i'm going to build.
i'm looking at around 50# at 28" for my target weight. according to everything i've read, i should have no problem in the weight department with this tight grained Osage like i have here. what concerns me some is the length of stave vs draw length. i draw between 28.5 and 29" depending on my anchor point.
My point is..... that my rough stave is only 65" in length, so even if i'm lucky enough to use it all and add tip overlays to extend the tips some, i'll be lucky to get a 64" bow out of it. it will most likely end up 63" So what i'm looking for is a bow design i can safely draw to 29" without it stacking too bad. i'd really like to have something with a rigid grip, and pyramid style limbs that push the working limb out further if possible. but i don't know if the properties of this Osage will hold up with shorter narrow working limbs. according to TBB's Ron Hardcastle, i need about 68" of length to get a 29" draw using this design.
before i start carving on this thing, i'd really like to get some more options and opinions on different designs for a 62"-64" bow.
Thanks, Kirk
-
Kirk, I'd lay the bow out with a 4" handle and no more then 1-1/2" fades. If you're a big guy with a large hand you may need to make the handle a little longer. Make sure you follow the linear grain when laying the bow out and lay it out going off the center line that is following that linear grain. That includes the last 6" of the one limb that vere's off 1-1/2". Dry heat will work wonders to straighten a limb if need be. You may can cheat off the center line a little towards the tips which are normally non-bending. Mainly try to utilize as much working limb as you can and work with what you have. You might add a little reflex after the bow is floor tillered and prior to working it to brace height. This will counter some of the string-follow that your long draw will most likely bring on.
-
Kirk ii, Here is my two sense. Use a chalk line, string a center line ,find the center line go left and right mark 3 inches from center,measure 16 inches from center line and make a mark left then do same on the right limb.Now back to handle area,Take a compass and aquire a dia. of 2 " and make a circle on left and right marks on center dots.Now go to center dots at 16 inches and make a circle , go to the end and reset compass at 1/4 inch and do a circle , which will give you 1/2 in end tips. Now connect the circles. You will have the profile of a good flat bow. Keep in mind ,width length and thickness determines the out come. I am sure you have learned this from glass bows. The glass bow tiller is limited,However the wooden bow is more forgiving,so it will be easier to till,which is another stage,check out georges sight.You will narrow the handle after you till the bow, I use the ruff handle area in the vise while i work the bow limbs.Good luck Denny
-
Kirk,
The grain doesn't follow the stave all that well. Study the rough layout I penciled on it, you don't have much more than 1/8" leeway off of that layout, without risking violations.
In fact it gets downright wiggly in places and you'll see that layout runs right to the edge in places.
You need to take two rings off the back, to get down to that nice fat one if I remember right, and I made it a point to think it through and remember right.
You can make 50# at 29" no problem, but you can't afford to take off that knotty part on the straighter end. Rather, again following my layout, you run past it to one side.
Study my layout and figure out why I put it down like I did.
This project won't allow for an arbitrary design and layout, like a pyramid shape or whatever. Save that for a nice clean whitewood stave or a board or boo backed project. Rather follow the grain along it's wiggly path and plan for about 1 1/2 width from fades to midlimb like was already suggested. Then, again following the grain, you'll taper out to about 1/2" at the string grooves. but initially leave it about 1/4" generous of that until you get it floor tillered and then get the one limb pushed over enough to make the string track.
Once you get the size down to floor tiller, it's a simple easy matter to move that limb over with heat. It will be intimidating perhaps for the first timer, but we'll give you detailed instruction... I can post pics as I'm sure can others.
I layout a 4" handle and 2" fade tapers and then work them down from there near the end of the project, once I get a short string on it. I generally leave no more than 7" of none working wood.
These bows are 60# @ 28", 58" ntn, typical for me not bending handles and if any not much more than 1 1/2" at the fades... and neither from the caliber of wood you got dispite is knarly shape. You got wood aplenty brother, but you are definately in the right mindset. Take nothing for granted.
(http://home.comcast.net/~dcm4/pwpimages/ap.jpg)
-
Block planes won't do you no service buddy, especially on that one. Occasionally you can get by with a spokeshave, but that stave is knarly enough you'll bust out splinters most likely.
A draw knife for taking the back rings, very carefully and in fact a cabinet scraper for the finishing work. Don't take any wood off it (belly or sides) until you get down to you final back ring. Then do the pencil layout again, following my example.
Then bandsaw for the rough reduction. Then wood rasps. I like a ferrier's rasp, and then a #49 or #50 Nickolson pattern makers rasps. Finer "4 way" for the finish work. Lots of cabinet scaper for tillering and finesse width reduction near the end. Sand paper obviously. I use a 6 x 38 belt sander for some rough floor tiller work and width reduction but wouldn't encourage it for a starter.
-
You can move osage around a bunch with heat once you get it down to floor tiller size.
There's a lots of pics here, not well organized but it looks like the "...gg?.JPG" ones show a pretty interesting project. Perhaps others may be helpful if you have not browsed there. Sorry for the unrelated stuff. Comcast makes it damn near impossible to manage pics anymore.
http://home.comcast.net/~dcm4/site/?/photos/
(http://home.comcast.net/~dcm4/gg3.JPG)
(http://home.comcast.net/~dcm4/gg4.JPG)
-
Morning, DCM! I was talking about chasing to a suitable heartwood ring. He said you did it. You are talking about following the vertical grain. I'm not sure how you resolved it with, Kirk. Gotta go here. Anyway, Kirk, this, I believe, is what DCM is talking about.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/layout.html
Jawge
-
It's both George. I left him a couple of rings to chase, to give him a taste of it. Then he's got to go back and do the layout again. I sent it marked up for him, but he'll cut that all off when he chases down a couple.
Nice example, clear pictures. This stave he has is more knarly, and osage heartwood which makes it harder to see the grain, but exactly the same principle of following the grain.
Grain is along the lenght, not thickness (I know your realize George, I'm talking to Kirk... who also knows). Chasing a ring is different, and osage is so pronounced ring porous between heartwood rings I don't expect he'll have trouble with that part.
-
Not much I can add here except that if you're not use to these selfbows your draw length may wind up shorter than you expect. A bulbous handle design like David uses will allow for a longer draw length IMO. Sounds like you certainly have enough wood for the weight you're after. That 1 1/2" rectangular limb layout is fine for an elliptical tiller and shorter draw length but may provide a little hand shock for longer draw lengths. Any chance for a little side tillering here David once weight reduction starts? ART
-
DCM, I wasn't sure he understood that he has tp follow the lateral grain and he has to chase to a heartwood ring. Got it, Kirk? Jawge
-
I always side tiller once I get one shooting Art. All part of the process. I'm liable to take width off the skinny end of the limbs 3 or 4 cycles til I get it shooting nice. Same on glass projects actually. I don't do paint by numbers, perhaps take too much for granted.
I generally don't width tiller the inner limb, and like the profile of the bow on the right in the pics above, with a little stiffness on the outer limbs for obvious reasons. Another reason I tweak off as much mass as I can from the width on the outer limbs. Stiff'ish but not heavy works best for me.
-
This project won't allow for an arbitrary design and layout, like a pyramid shape or whatever. Save that for a nice clean whitewood stave or a board or boo backed project. Rather follow the grain along it's wiggly path and plan for about 1 1/2 width from fades to midlimb like was already suggested.
Insert Quote
I always side tiller once I get one shooting Art. All part of the process. I'm liable to take width off the skinny end of the limbs 3 or 4 cycles til I get it shooting nice. Same on glass projects actually. I don't do paint by numbers, perhaps take too much for granted.
I generally don't width tiller the inner limb, and like the profile of the bow on the right in the pics above, with a little stiffness on the outer limbs for obvious reasons. Another reason I tweak off as much mass as I can from the width on the outer limbs. Stiff'ish but not heavy works best for me.
I was just inquiring about Kirk's stave David.
-
That's what I thought you meant Art, and what I responded too. I'd side tiller his project when the time comes. Do 'em all that way. I already warned him to leave a little extra width to allow for this.... I think we're talking about the same thing.
-
Thanks for explaining that again David ;D. Yep, same thing. ART
-
Now we are cooking. :) It's going to take me a bit to pick up on the self bowyer terminology. but i think you guys are getting through to me.
being an old carpenter is going to be a valuable asset in this adventure i'm thinking. the old term "Roll with the flow", i'm quite sure had something to do with reading grain in a piece of wood like a news paper, instead of just seeing wavy lines.... i can do that... :) but learning how it effects the tiller should prove interesting.
i'm actually glad you left a couple rings to chase here David. Although i may regret that statement until i get the hang of it. this is definately the hardest, most dense piece of wood i've ever thought about working with hand tools. i got a feeling i got some good excersize in my future here.
thanks for the illustration Jawge. It looks just like the layout David drew on this one. :) i'm quite certain i'll have a buch more questions for you guys before it's all said and done. thanks for the support.
-
Focus on process Kirk, forget about product for now. You are not making a bow at this point. Now all you are concerned with is taking 1 ring off without, literally without touching the underlying ring. Then you do that all over again, end to end. Then you can move on to the next step. It's about the ride buddy. If you want a good bow, they are a dime a dozen. That's not what we're about here. Not just yet.
The wiggly part won't make no diff when you get the limbs bending. The way we trial and error tiller selfbows takes care of that. The stave will tell us how to make it work right, not visa-versa as with a lam project.
-
Kirk, do you have a cabinet scraper and a draw knife? One thing about chaseing a ring on osage is that there is such a difference between the early wood and the late wood. The early wood is crusty and soft, you can run a ring blind almost just by feel. I usually chase down to the ring I want and leave quite a bit of early wood not cleaned off by the draw knife, then I go back with the cabinet scraper and clean it up real good. After my back is cleaned up and ready I also run a ring on the belly, this gets the stave very well oriented and makes it easier to work. Once you get a ring on the belly all you do is just take off one full ring at a time until the bow starts to slightly flex when you push it hard to the floor. At this point you slow down and start thinkinf about laying the bow out, you are ready to start tillering. Steve
-
Hey Kirk, being and old carperter like myself, you probably got an ol' wood spoon making tool laying around ;). Best tool there is for working around knots and chasing those valley rings. ART
-
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/Jawge/Tools/shavehooks.jpg)
-
Those are my chasin' tools. Top to bottom. You got your standard drawknife. It pulls towards you. You got your shavehooks. The curved ones work really well for those dippy rings. Using a straight scraper will not work on those hippy dippy rings. You got your push knife. Works great for pushing off those top rings. It literally pushes away. Also does double duty as a scraper. Awesome tool. I used to use a meat cleaver as a scraper but no longer. A curved scraper will also do the job on the roller coaster rings. Jawge
-
i got the stave in my wood vise today, but didn't have time to roll up my sleaves and do much. i looked all over for my stack of cabinet scrappers, and couldn't find the dad burn things.... what i did find is makin's for a dandy scraping tool, and a push knife too. i came up with a pair of old 12" thickness planer blades i've had kicking around here for 20 years. they were brand new until some smuck ran a board through the planer with a nail in it... so both of them has a chip out of the blade, but the rest has a nice edge on it. i took a few swipes down the back of that stave and had beautiful yellow curlies coming off smooth as silk. :)
now i don't know that i've ever used a push knife before. but i got the makings for a dandy straight scraper right here.
it ain't much guys, but it's a start. i'll do some more rooting for my draw knives tonight. :)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Shop%20Pics/PlannerBladescraper003.jpg)
-
I use a chunk of broke planer blade some myself. I should take a grinder to it and make some handles, but all I did was wrap some leather around. I sharpened the square corners too. Good for bulk work, in between a draw knife and scraper. I sometimes will flex a cabinet scraper for finesse work, which you can't with a stiff blade like that.
Those last 2 rings are fine, fortunately, so if you don't find your draw knife you can get by with scraping. Even with the draw knife you'll find one direction (along the lenght) you work against the grain, the other with (but you knew that). Against goes faster but more likely to pull a splinter behind a knot. I generally go with the grain on the last ring for sure, and even then when I come to a knot I'll relieve the back of it first so it doesn't pull a splinter. I don't recall a whole lot of knots on that save, but a considerable amount of swirl in the grain which is it's own challenge.
Looks like you got a decent camera. Post pics when you come to questions. I'll try to check in over the weekend, but yer in good hands here. Some of these boys throw some humdinger projects, as I'm sure you've seen. I mean plumb humdinger too.
Oh, let's go on and get this settled now. One doesn't do a cut in arrow rest on a selfbow. There's folks that do it, and I even admire it, but it's an abomination in my opinion. So if you roll that way, I'm gonna cast bad juju on yer arse. Building up with leather is fine though, so it's no real sacrifice imho. This will give you a sense of what wood you'll have left in the handle area. You can see I like for my bows to work most up into the fades, but only just a smidge.
(http://home.comcast.net/~dcm4/pwpimages/dina1.JPG?PHPSESSID=0522fe69c65971059900e4b1660c8e94)
-
"Oh, let's go on and get this settled now. One doesn't do a cut in arrow rest on a selfbow."
Friend: "George, will you help me build a bow."
George: "Sure, I'd be happy to."
Friend: "Oh I want one with a cut in arrow rest and center shot."
George: "Ummm. Nope. Not if you want my help."
We built a nice osage bow with a glued on leather arrow rest. He's go a 33 inch draw so it was quite challenging.
Hold your ground, David.
There's still room for us hard liners. :)
Jawge
-
This is good info guys. I love it. :) So long as were are setting ground rules i might as well be straight up here. i never.... i repeat never, get offended when seeking knowlege from others. ....oh sure... i got a lot of wood working back ground, and have built a pretty good batch of glass backed bows....
but i've learned many moons ago, that a man who truely wants to seek knowedge and understanding about something, must learn first to set aside what he "thinks" he already knows about the subject, and listen, watch, and ask questions. anything else just goes "against the grain" if you'll pardon the pun.
so you guys don't worry about pulling punches with old Kirk here. i'm what you call seasoned, but flexible...... i'm also an opinionated ol' cuss at times. :)
Jawge, i cannot even imagine a 70# self bow drawing 33"...How long was this bow anyway? 80"? and he wanted a shelf cut out past center? ??? i wouldn't take that project on using composites myself. :o you are a better man than i.....
David, i'm one of those kind of woodworkers that can sand on the same piece of wood all day and have the patience of Job. my phylosophy about going against the grain vs with the grain would be why do it at all if you don't have too? there are enough of those times in life we are forced to do it, that it's a good thing to learn how though....i prefer long thin curlies over chips on the floor any day brutha. :)
Nice looking work there on those grips. Are you guys going to help me with that part too? i've always wondered how you make those beautifal leather grips. :)
-
Soup to nuts baby. No worries.
WRT against the grain, after you back down a few dozen of them mothers from the bark you start looking at shortcuts differently.
WRT to advice, listen to it, process it, then do what YOU know to do. Advice ain't fer beans until you make sense of it. Another way to say, we can only tell you how we make a bow, and chances are there's differences amoung us in most aspects.
-
Kirk, I wish this site was around when I started. You have a great attitude. After 20 years or more of making bows, I'm still learning stuff. The 33 " draw bow was 72 " and just short of 50#. Made of osage. I may have been able to go an inch or 2 shorter but it came out well. I knew he add a 33" draw 'causeI watched him draw his glass bow. That was new territory for me. LOL. I draw 26" soaking wet and I don't do this for a living. In fact, I don't do nuthin' for a living no more! I'm aretired chemistry teacher. Keep the questions coming. Plenty of help here. :) Jawge
-
Kirk, btw, center shot ain't got nuthin' to do with can't. We can. Just don't want to. Personal preference. It's no nock on those who love that design. That's fine. It's not for me. That's all. So don't you center shotters start teeing off on me and David. :) Jawge
-
thanks David,
i take everything with a grain of salt anymore brutha. especially getting involved in Internet forums. LOL! I think i'll ease into this first project going with the grain to error on the side of caution. i'd really like to do this Osage stave justice.
now I've got some other stave's I've been harvesting i can practice on a bit on too... or should i say i've harvested some wood with the "intention" of using them for bow stave's, at any rate. whether they are actually likely candidates or not, i haven't a clue yet.
i'll have to quiz you guys on how i should be handling some of this stuff one of these days. i live in the land of many trees here in Oregon, but knowing which ones make good bow stave's, and how to harvest and cure them properly, is something i look forward to leaning about. That is one part of the journey i'm looking forward to a lot.
i just found a beautiful Madrone tree about 16" at the butt with very little taper, that has a good 10-12' section of what looks to be knot free. pretty darn straight for a madrone. I've also heard it referred to as manzinita. i believe that is what the Indians called it. all i know about the stuff is that it compares to Osage in the density part, but the wild grain is usually quite twisted. this particular tree may be an exception to the rule though. its still alive and standing, but mine for the taking if i want it.
anybody else familiar with madrone?
here we go....LOL!
-
Kirk, I have made some bows from Madrone but didn't care for it. been a while and I can't remember what I didn't like about it. You might want to look into vine maple and ocean spray, even low and medium elevation yew. Where you live Vine maple is one of my favorites. Steve
-
Kirk, btw, center shot ain't got nuthin' to do with can't. We can. Just don't want to. Personal preference. It's no nock on those who love that design. That's fine. It's not for me. That's all. So don't you center shotters start teeing off on me and David. :) Jawge
i understand this completely Jawge. i've run the gauntlet on center shot vs to-center and off center. i can see the center shot fans point on using various spined arrows without effecting arrow flight so much. but personally i'm more inclined to believe in matching your arrows to your bow is more efficient. the archers paradox has always fasinated me. i got into it with a bunch of areo space engineers one time about the concept of stored energy in the shaft itself in the form of spring tension and elestaic colusion. WOW! talk about getting a brain cramp!
it was a fun debate, just the same. but can you say "Splitting hair's"???? lol.....
i'll tell you one that got me going was watching these slow motion videos of the paradox. i watched one the other day from a looking down view on how the string rolling off your fingers effects the paradox on the shaft that was fasinating. :) they have a shooting machine that simulates a finger release instead of a mechanical release aid. after watching this , it brought a lot of other factors into the paradox debate.... good stuff
is it ok to post those kind of videos on this site?
-
thanks Steve,
if nothing else the madrone makes wonderful firewood.... i'm not familiar with "ocean spray", but i did locate a nice stand of yew this fall. i harvested a small tree about 12' high and 5" at the butt. i may have the makings for a stave here. one side of the little tree had some bark damage and a bit of rot..... that's how i justified taking it.
i need to work on getting permision to harvest small quntities on state land, or contact some logging companies that have timber sales contracts. i think the later might be the way to go.
what i need to do is get to know Gordon here better. he's right accross the river from me in Tigard. i'll bet he could get me going in the right direction.
-
Gordon is an excellent bowyer. Have fun with your bowyering. The other possibility is red oak boards. They are fun. Info on y site. Gotta go. Be back later. Doing shelves and then hunting. Jawge
-
Kirk, nice to see you over here! like seeing one of your buddies at a new bar!! i like all kinds of bows wood, and otherwise. have fun with the osage. don't worry about that little kink in the end. a heat gun with straighten out enough.
-
Kirk, We do have allot of great wood to chose from here in Oregon. Yew, Vine Maple Hazelnut,Service berry, Dogwood,Oceanspray and Juniper just to scratch the surface. I'm on the other side of the mountain range in Bend, But as George said, Gordon is a great bowyer.
This next spring around the middle of May we will be doing our Central Oregon Bowyers Gathering, and there will be some great help there as well. We try to have as many expert bowyers come as we can to help teach and promote the sport. I'll make sure you get a flier when we send them out.
-
thanks Kennan,
that sounds like the makings for a camping trip to me. i'll bring my wife with the 32" draw length.... yup i said that right... i built her a bow a few years back trying to get her back into flinging arrows with me again, and watched her draw a 30" shaft right off the back of the shelf ??? i had her do it twice just to make sure i was seeing what i was seeing.
its no wonder she wanted me to lighten it up some. i had it at about 38 @ 28" .... it never saw 32" on the tiller tree. i'll bet it was drawing 50 @ 32".
badger mentioned ocean spray too, and i'm not familiar with that at all. where does the stuff grow, and what's it look like?
yo sulpher,
i figured i better get over here, dig out my hand tools, and shake the fiberglass out of my hair a bit. the icing on the cake has arrived for me my friend. time to learn the true tradecraft. :) my wife said she draws the line dressing up in buck skins.... i was bummed.... i told her she'd look good in leather. :) oh well, i still want some buck skin cothing. i love the stuff. :)
-
:D :D :DLOL
-
Maybe you could tawk her into just the tops or bottoms Kirk. :o
-
Maybe you could tawk her into just the tops or bottoms Kirk. :o
LOL! That's funny David. :D you know what's really funny is i spent the first part of my life trying to talk her out of her clothes, now i'm trying to talk her into wearing some....i think you have the right idea. if i had my choice on which half, i think i'd choose a beaded halter top. then she could at least shoot her bow while we are stump shooting without any fear of injury. Ofcourse i'm a firm believer in letting your shooting partner pull their own arrows. ;D ;D ;D