Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Michael C. on December 16, 2009, 05:08:53 pm
-
Does anyone know the difference between eagle feathers for fletching vs. other feathers? I know that they are illegal feathers, but I have a bird coming from the National Eagle Repository hopefully sometime in 2010. Just wanted to hear thoughts about the possible differences in fletching and if it is worth using a few feathers for one or two arrows.
-
Wow, you're a raptor rehabber? If so, I applaud you!!!!
Eagle feathers were used as fletching by Native Americans and also in Europe and Asia. There are Japanese arrows fletched with eagle feathers. If you don't mind my saying so, a better use for the feathers is to donate them to any local tribes in your region. They have tremendous Spiritual value and they'll become heirlooms passed down for generations.
-
Wow, you're a raptor rehabber? If so, I applaud you!!!!
Eagle feathers were used as fletching by Native Americans and also in Europe and Asia. There are Japanese arrows fletched with eagle feathers. If you don't mind my saying so, a better use for the feathers is to donate them to any local tribes in your region. They have tremendous Spiritual value and they'll become heirlooms passed down for generations.
Nope it's a dead one :) You have to jump through hoops to get them and wait 2-5 years to actually get them when you send off for them and it's been almost 5 for me. I called to update my address and phone # and they said it should be on it's way this coming year, so I got all excited.
I know there are historical precedents, but I didn't know if there were any amateur ornithologist out there who would know the difference in feather types and possible pros/cons to them.
-
Without special permitting it is illegal for you to posses eagle feathers..no matter if it were from a live or dead bird.
The flight feathers of any large bird will make good fletching. The only drawback I see in using eagle feathers for fletching is 10 years in a federal penn and $10,000.00 fine! Other than that they will work well for fletchings. Even if you have the permit to use them, if a fed wildlife officer identifies them you are in for a hassle until it is cleared up.
-
Yeah I'm a registered Native American forgot to add that, but thanks for looking out for me. They make you go through your tribe to do a lot of the paper work and a bunch of other stuff, the hoops I was talking about. I'm sure they send paperwork (hopefully they will, but it is government) with the Eagle.
Sorry Steven T., but I might get in as much trouble as you would, if I sent you some.
I think I might give it a go on at least one then once it gets here, I will have to post some images once it's done, might be a good half year though.
-
You better be sure what you are doing is completely legal before you post pic on the internet!
-
Use them feathers for ceremony brother, they have a lot of power.
-
You better be sure what you are doing is completely legal before you post pic on the internet!
I will I don't plan on getting them for awhile, so I have time to contact the right people and make sure. I know that we can use them in regalia (I'm planning on getting my son into fancy dancing) and religious items for the NA Church, but I thought it would be cool to make a replica of one of the old Comanche arrows and make it capable for shooting.
-
I figured you must be NA or you couldn't get a permit at all. Only schools, museums, or NA can get permits. I guess I am a little odd on this situation. I don't understand why you would use them on arrows that you will shoot. They are very sacred and very hard to come by. I would think ceremonial items would be a better use. Just my opinion though.
-
A few months ago I was driving and saw a large bird on the side of the road, so I turned around to see what it was....turns out it was some type of eagle that was still fresh....had not even gotten stiff yet. If I had called the proper authorities and they verified it was hit by a car, could I have kept the feathers or talons?
-
A few months ago I was driving and saw a large bird on the side of the road, so I turned around to see what it was....turns out it was some type of eagle that was still fresh....had not even gotten stiff yet. If I had called the proper authorities and they verified it was hit by a car, could I have kept the feathers or talons?
NO! ! ! ! !
-
A few months ago I was driving and saw a large bird on the side of the road, so I turned around to see what it was....turns out it was some type of eagle that was still fresh....had not even gotten stiff yet. If I had called the proper authorities and they verified it was hit by a car, could I have kept the feathers or talons?
Nope, it's just against the law unless it is a specific circumstance like a museum or such. If you go to the zoo and pick up a feather you can get in trouble, If I were to just pick up a dead bird on the side of the road even though I am NA I could get in the same trouble as Pat mentioned. You have to go through the correct venues in order to receive Eagle feathers and there are still laws, as Pat also mentioned, that even apply to NA on what they can be used for, but they are sort of blurry laws. I plan on making sure this whole thing is legal, even though I am fairly certain it is. I have seen many arrows made from eagle feathers and before anyone asks I wasn't into archery at the time and I haven't had the chance to call any of the people with said arrows to ask them if they know of anything special. I know that some were made for ceremony and others were made for shooting. I had just gotten off the phone as I said and those other arrows I have seen came to mind and I thought someone on here might be aware of any special attributes they might have, on an arrow.
I don't mind the other comments and it's interesting for me to see the concern their is for making sure they are used in the right way, even some NA don't show as much concern and I am glad to see that the majority of you do. I grew up seeing these feathers being used in all sorts of things from regalia, to ceremonial items and also protective items on their cars, i.e. rear-view mirror decorations. I don't see anything wrong with using it on a traditional arrow other than some obscure law myself and I don't see it as being a violation of anything, that I've learned in the culture, as sacred. I would much rather see this feather on an arrow and being used for hunting than being bleached by the sun in my car ;D I do plan on using the majority of them for the things all of you have mentioned and I appreciate your concern that they are used for the correct thing.
-
Holy Crap! eagle feathers are illegal.. just kidding!!!!!! I had to chime in..LOL... I have seen eagle feather arrows used and they were big medicine arrows on the rez (Cheyenne),they were wild rose shafts and flint tipped and looked way cool. However as a hunting arrow I believe turkey and goose feathers were the choice of most tribes.. easier to get and tough.. Besides most tribes believe the eagle to be close to the creator so would never kill one, so feathers were and still are hard to come by. personally I would say that it is up to the individual what he does with his feathers once the feds say you are indian enough to believe....and have them.. so if you do build an arrow, for medicine or spiritual reasons good on you and hope it brings you some big medicine. Hawk
-
Oh Michael, the Cheyenne arrows I saw all had the power of lightning carved into the shafting...don't know if that will help or not.. Hawk a/ho
-
I would not bother to use them on an Arrow that You planned on Hunting with....a Turkey Feather will hold up better....and are easier to get and ruin...plus there are too many NDN's out there that would be so honored to be gifted with an Authentic Feather for Ceremonial Use....as stated these would be passed on for Generations....here in Texas and New Mexico ....it is next to impossible to get a Bald Eagle Feather....once in a great while do you see an fallen Golden....but there are no Baldies here....please rethink the Useage for Arrows....and think of the Value of these to the NA Church and it's members....JMO
-
I have to agree with you, I'd rather see some used on an arrow than for trinkets. But then it might not be any different then someone hanging one of those little flags from their mirror of some country their ancestors came from ::) I'm also mildly amused at all the "white" indians that get defensive at something they percieve as offensive to the NDN culture they are not part of or truley understand. JMO
-
Oh Michael, the Cheyenne arrows I saw all had the power of lightning carved into the shafting...don't know if that will help or not.. Hawk a/ho
You made me laugh with the beginning of your first comment.
Some of the different Comanche ones I have seen have some sort of totem or special coloring to them depending on what they were used for or who they were made by. Most of the Comanche/Kiowa versions I have seen are bone points, but I'm going to learn how to knap and make some stone or trade points. I'm heading out to see a buddy of mine in a few weeks and that will give me a chance to catch up with a lot of people I haven't seen in 10 or 15 years, so it will be a good reunion. One of the leaders of the NA Church there is his uncle and I was planning on talking with him about it while I am there, so I don't do anything accidentally.
I am Chickasaw but I grew up most of my early life with Comanches/Kiowas/Apaches and have been raised going to ceremonies with their(my) family and buried some of my mothers and fathers with my brothers there, so please don't think I take these cultural concerns lightly. I really do appreciate the thoughts and concerns about what I am doing, but again this is a culture that I grew up in and am still around, even though I am not as around it as much now. The issue isn't about if this is right or wrong, I think as a person from my culture/heritage I can and understand what the repercussions of what I am doing are.
If I make the arrow/arrows they aren't going to be for a practice target, it will be much like Hawk said a very special arrow that I will only use for certain hunts. I haven't ever gone hunting, but I think it would be special to me if I took my first doe/buck with one of these arrows if I make it, this isn't a certainty and I have time to consider what I am doing and make sure it's right for me.
Please don't take this as me being offended by anything that has been said here, I'm not, but I just wanted you guys to know where I come from and that I'm not just doing this willy nilly.
The question was if there are any special attributes to the feathers like recovery of snap on the fletch or what have you. It may be that I use one feather in combo with some Turkey or Swan feathers, but I will have to wait and see.
-
Just admire them, and use turkey feathers on your arras. They can't be SO much better that it's worth any risk. Even if I wanted to make a ceremonial arrow, I'd be getting written permission from Uncle Sam to do it, then I still would probably not do it.
-
Ah, my apologies Michael. I didn't realize you were NDN. From your first post on this thread, I thought you were a raptor rehabber getting an "unreleasable" Eagle. I understand totally what you're doing now. I support that.
We need a joke to lighten things up around here. A good arrow joke.
Q: How did people know that General Custer was heavily into fashion?
A: He was found dead wearing an Arrow shirt! >:D
Bada bump bing! Thank you, thank you, folks! I'll be here all week! Tip your waitress, try the Manhattan clam chowder, and don't forget kareoke night!
-
They are pretty soft for arrow fletches.Turkey and a few select others are tougher.
-
Comanche's an apache's together?!!! :o I thought that was still a sore subject? I'll have ask a friend of mine who is full Apache. If I can find where she moved to..... :) And......what is NDN ? ???
Wayne
-
And......what is NDN ? ???
Wayne
Pronounce the Letters ....as you say them...they say..................... :P
Just a little Native American humor!!
The Tribes were never Indians...they were Native Americans........... ;)
-
Comanche's an apache's together?!!! :o I thought that was still a sore subject? I'll have ask a friend of mine who is full Apache. If I can find where she moved to..... :) And......what is NDN ? ???
Wayne
Yeah they aren't living in teepees anymore either ::) I have a lot of friends that are mixed, most of my relatives are mixed with tribes that we once fought against, it's called progress/assimilation ;D Most of the people aren't full blood anything anymore, if they ever really were there isn't any historical reference to really tell, they are a mixture of tribes. Heck I know a lot of registered full blood Creeks that don't have a drop of NA blood, freed men of African descent, in them but they were adopted into the tribe before the Dawes Act and are considered part of the tribe.
-
Thats part of being One of the "5 Civilized Tribes"............ I spent a year and a half in the Kiowa/Mc Alester/Lake Eufala area building a Co generation Power Plant in Kiowa during the mid 90's....lots of good people over that way....good Native Church too........ I really loved the Country there....but it's too damned Humid and Hot for this Damned Yankee......... :P
-
Thats part of being One of the "5 Civilized Tribes"............ I spent a year and a half in the Kiowa/Mc Alester/Lake Eufala area building a Co generation Power Plant in Kiowa during the mid 90's....lots of good people over that way....good Native Church too........ I really loved the Country there....but it's too damned Humid and Hot for this Damned Yankee......... :P
El D did you ever get the directions out to your place? If you did drop them in a PM to me and I would be happy to go check it out.
-
I'll send you an email........
-
registered native americans can posses eagle feathers and other wildlife parts that are illegal to non native americans...its about the ONLY thing that the government did that was for the native americans culture...
-
registered native americans can posses eagle feathers and other wildlife parts that are illegal to non native americans...its about the ONLY thing that the government did that was for the native americans culture...
We can get commods if we want them too, gotta love the cheese and powdered eggs/milk :) I ate so much of the cheese one time when I was a kid I had a hard time gettin' rid of it, if you know what I mean :o
-
Don't take this the wrong way ....My Family and my Wife's are both have ties to Native America.... Me on My Mothers side from the Ohio Tribes...my Wife on Her Mothers side from Canada...The United States Government did more than let the NDN's play with Feathers..and Dead Animal parts....The Ojibwa and Ottawa back home have unlimited Hunting and Fishing Rights....this extends well past feeding their Tribes...it goes as far as stripping the Great lakes of all of Her Salmon and Native Trout...not for Subsistence...but for Sheer Greed and Profit....harvesting all of the Wild Rice along Lake Superiors Shores...and then Selling it for Profit....The Federal Government is no Innocent here...but then neither are the Tribes either....If the Money went into Education or for the Betterment of their People that would be one thing...but it has no impact on the Poor...only a choice few are getting Rich..everything is done for the Everlovin greenback...no matter what the Color of the Skin is.....Nuff Said
Now back to Michaels Poll...I too believe that they look great...but a Turkey feather is so much stronger than a Eagles feather...but they sure would look cool on a Dozen nice Cane Shafts and Obsidian Points in my Quiver too....... ;)
-
Yup not a person in the world that is all good out there, just flawed men and women.
I don't plan on making that many (12) though maybe 1 or 2, for special hunts.
-
El D, it goes without saying that tribal governments are corrupt----they're modeled after the U.S. federal government! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
El D, it goes without saying that tribal governments are corrupt----they're modeled after the U.S. federal government! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You said a mouthfull there for sure!!
-
Tsalagi, not to mention funded by the US government.... ::)
Wayne
-
Stickbender, that's what happens when you tell hunters they have to be farmers, as was the case with the Plains tribes. They had a totally self-reliant, self-sufficient economy until Uncle Sam poked his nose in there. Same with my ancestors (except they had farms), before Trail of Tears. The old adage is: Leave well enough alone. HEY!!!!! That's a great idea for a primitive archery t-shirt! A picture of a primitive bow with the caption: "Leaving well enough alone for 10,000 years!" Slight snipe at compound bows, but, hey, it's all in fun and no one got hurt. ;D
-
I like My Tee Shirt............ >:D
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Hey Michael C,
I am not native American, heck I'm of French decent....my great, great, great grandaddy was probably trying to chase your women for all I know. I have a good friend who is though Mr. Jay Sam (Little River Band of Odawa) and I think he told me that different arrows (those for different purposes) used different types of fletching and arrow-heads as well. I believe he told me that for game hunting it was common to use buzzard or vulture feathers as they were supposed to resist blood damage better....not very appetizing but hey! Kind of like using Turtle Claw heads and "splinter heads" for War and saving the cutting points for hunting....anyway maybe if you want some arrows of personal significance you ought to make them and enjoy them....the reasons are personal to you.For what ever it's worth
Aanii
half eye
-
Tsalagi, when the greedy nit wits, in Washington, got a little graft, I mean campaign, greasing their palms, it sure seemed like a great idea to move people off of the lands they had been living on for thousands of years before the white man came along, with a better idea......so lets see now, there are these fine upstanding fellows, who have have graciously given me quite a generous campaign donation, and have simply asked if it would be feasible to remove, and relocate these non God fearing heathens, off of land that they don't have deeds for, and put them on land that no one in their right ming would try to cultivate, and make them take up farming, and stop them from teaching their young their heritage,traditions,language, religeon, and way of life. Well I am sure that since they are used to the rural life that if they really put their minds, and backs to it they can make a go of it, and the fine upstanding citizens, who want to see me continue sticking, er, doing the best thing for America, will make good use of the land that the heathens were just letting go to waste. Now, where did I put that bag of money. Certainly not in the Freezer, it hasn't been invented yet ;D.....Some things never change ;)........But to play the devils advocate, The NA's themselves were not above running another tribe off of their ancestral lands, if they had the resources to do so, and it was a good hunting, and well watered land.
-
Hey Michael C,
I am not native American, heck I'm of French decent....my great, great, great grandaddy was probably trying to chase your women for all I know. I have a good friend who is though Mr. Jay Sam (Little River Band of Odawa) and I think he told me that different arrows (those for different purposes) used different types of fletching and arrow-heads as well. I believe he told me that for game hunting it was common to use buzzard or vulture feathers as they were supposed to resist blood damage better....not very appetizing but hey! Kind of like using Turtle Claw heads and "splinter heads" for War and saving the cutting points for hunting....anyway maybe if you want some arrows of personal significance you ought to make them and enjoy them....the reasons are personal to you.For what ever it's worth
Aanii
half eye
I appreciate that :)
I still think it's interesting to see everyone's responses either way. The only ones I think are silly are the ones where people have obviously not read the thread and just put something after reading the initial post.
-
Michael,
You happen to know Eric Smith down there?I believe hes Chicasaw people too.
-
Michael,
You happen to know Eric Smith down there?I believe hes Chicasaw people too.
I don't know many Chickasaws, mostly plains tribes and Creeks. The majority of my friends are Comanche, Apache, Kiowa or a mix. I know a lot of Burgesses, Cables, Whitewolfs, Kadaysos, Pewewardys, Tieyahs, Saupitty, Harjos and Parkers, not many of my people though unless we are related. My family is from Hamiltons, Fixicos and Underwoods, no I don't think the Am. Idol girl is one of them, she may be but I've never seen her at a reunion :)
-
To me a Eagle feather is just another feather, holds no signifigance whatsoever. If it were legal to use them I would but its not so I won't, nor will I pick one up if I find one.
As for what the goverment has done to the NA's,that discussion is political in nature and if it continues someones going to get their feathers ruffled, so why not just drop that aspect of the discussion.
-
As for what the goverment has done to the NA's,that discussion is political in nature and if it continues someones going to get their feathers ruffled, so why not just drop that aspect of the discussion
I couldnt agree more!!!!!!!
-
Agreed! Sorry! :D
-
Yeah no reason to bring up things that can't be changed by talking about them ;D
I don't mind the idea of people voicing their opinions on the feather issue though. I think the legality of me using them has been resolved, but opinions are interesting to me, as long as they are followed by a reason. They don't have to be justifiable reasons according to anyone else but them, I guess that's what makes them opinions, but it helps to know where people are coming from.
There are some things that have been said that I don't agree with and there are some that I do agree with, but I like reading all of them. I might take a friendly issue with someone, just to keep them on their toes or to clarify what they are saying, but it's all in a friendly discussion. Some of you have PMed me to let me know how you feel or how this issue personally affects you and that is cool of you to share a bit of who you are. I appreciate the fact that all of you have given me your points of view. I don't think anyone has gotten out of line, but I am pretty thick skinned. Once you hit meat though watch out >:D >:D >:D
-
Michael, those Parkers sure get around. :)
-
Michael, those Parkers sure get around. :)
Yeah I don't know about people with that last name, my dad always said you can't trust hippies or a Parker ;) ;) ;)
-
Dang! Used to be the Hippie type,to. ::) ;)
-
its illegal to have an eagle feather? even if you just found it? i would just say it fell from the sky O:) what about other raptors? i used to have a feather from a peregrine falcon.
-
Jim Bob, it is a federal offense to possess any part from any raptor...and ignorance of the law is no excuse!!! If in doubt look up the federal raptor laws.
It is not the local deer cop but the federal game & fish officers and I'd bet that the ones that will enforce that law can identify the feather by sight.
-
oh.... good thing i dont have that anymore. :)
-
But if the local deer cop catches you, he'll give you a fine too. It is also against State Law too. Then he'll call his buddy, the Fed.
-
If you want to use raptor feathers for personal adornment or decoration on a object Crazy Crow has simulated Eagle and other feathers for sale. The fake painted ones are hard to tell apart from the real ones. The only time that I know of that real Eagle feathers are required are when warriors dance in the sun to honor their women.