Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: sailordad on January 09, 2010, 10:36:46 pm
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well i went down and bought myself a copy of the "OVERSTREET IDENTIFICTION AND PRICE GUIDE TO INDIAN ARROWHEADS" 11th edition
this book is filled with lots of awesome full size pics,mostly black and white.but also alot of color pics too.
now i have been reading alot on points in my region,northern central.
now i do have some questions for all of you that know more than me about this stuff,which for the most part is all of you ;D.
in the descriptions of points they use terms such as "horizontal transverse flaking","collateral flaking", etc
i understand what "parallel oblique flaking", and "random flaking" mean.but unsure as to these other styles of flaking mean.
also i was looking for types that would be from minnesota,as this is where i am from.
but in the whole NC section,they only showed three that stated they were from mn.
am i to assume that all the types in the NC section may be found in mn,or is my state just artifact poor?
if the state is artifact poor,would this mean that those that are found would be worth a buck or three?
i know a couple of people that have found points in differant parts of central minnesota.they would be estatic if they were worth something.
thanks for any help you can give
peace,
tim
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i wounld not say that it's artifac poor maby people up there that have collections need to send pic's of them to overstreet and they will put them in there next edition.
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The 11th Edition!!! Man, I need to update! Mine is the 6th ;D
Just because there were only three points listed as being from Mn, doesn't mean that any of the points in the NC region couldn't be in Mn. Because ther was only three, I would assume that lithics in general would be a little more scarce in Mn than in surrounding states. maybe because of a lack of knappable stone???
I would also assume that any point from there would be no more valuable than a comparable point from any other state. With the exception of maybe a collector who was interested in mainly artifacts from Mn.
Also. the prices they list for the artifacts are a little decieving. The first price would be considered wholesale...the second price represents retail. It's sometimes hard to get the second price. :(
I think hor. transverse flaking is where the flakes run all the way from edge to edge and collateral flaking is when they form a ridge in the center. ???
What'd that book set ya back?
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Shannon is cost 31.99 plus tax at Barnes and Noble.
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Overstreets book is a nice guide but the prices he list you need to take as a Very marginal estimate. Some of the points he has listed with the prices from Florida, I'd have to tell him good luck, getting it. A lot of points from areas of the mid west and the NC regions are not sought after by collectors because the ascetics of the point is just not desirable, mostly because of the material of the rock. Another reason is the Agriculture practices in those areas has destroyed a lot of the collectable value of a point.
If you find a Newnan or Hillsborough, coral point down here 5 to 6" long, with no chips, or nicks, you are looking at the $3,000 to 6,000 range, if you know the right collector. If it has a broken base or chip, or nick, It is worth in the 100's of dollars range if somebody wants it bad. I don't even put a point in a case if it is broke, unless it is rare, like a broke Suwanee, or Clovis or exceptional Coral Hillsborough with a snapped base.
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Eddie, argicultural practices haven't destroyed the collectable value of the points. It has destroyed the value of a lot of collectable points.
When it comes to money...perfection is king. I don't know how many people have wanted me to look at their collections thinking they were sitting on a gold mine...only to find that out of a few hundred pieces, they have a few $10 points.
One tiny tip ding can turn a $500 point into a $50 piece. Not only that, it has to be good material and good workmanship, with size to boot.
I'm like you Eddie. It don't go in my case unless it's near perfect. I've found over 2,000 pieces, but my case only has about 60 good pieces. :(
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Shannon, yea, that's what I meant. ;D When you get back down, I'll get Rick to show you his cases of points. Some of his cases are in the $40,000 range or more. Unfortunatley I don't hav ethe pretty ones anymore, they are in somebody else's cases now. They paid for some guns, bows and hunting trips.
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i thought the prices were way out of control
i noticed to that they dont tell ya what material most of them were made from either.
that i found a little disapointing,but atleast its good for size referance and design.
i also find alot of the black/white pics to be poor enough that you cant see the flake pattern.
if i could then i would be able to see what they mean by the differant flake styles.
i know minnesota has very little to no good lithic material
i was told one time that most of the ancients here traded for there material,unless they were just making a quick crude tool
then they would just leave them laying after they were done with the task at hand.because the material is so poor.
i have an uncle who walks fields every spring looking for agates,hes been doing this for a very long time now.
in all those years he has only found 3 points,one is busted,one is very crude,the other(the best of the three) is less than a half inch long
and is made from red agate.which we do have a lot of here.another guy i know has found three or four on the same beach over a period of years.
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I have gotten some lithics from your area and across the border. Everything that has been gifted to me has been axes and celts with farm disc scars across them and have been made by peck and grind, mostly granite and some similar, green grainy rock
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Eddie, that sounds like the stuff weve got here.
grainy granite type material.pretty much useless for everything except driveway filler ;D
i think thats why they left alot of tools lay after they were done with the project at hand.
wasnt worth luggin the extra weight back to the village/camp sites.
easier to just discard and make new ones as needed.
i need to take a pic,i think i may have found my very first artifact this past summer.
i'll do that tommor and ya'll can tell me if it is or not.
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man I have been digging for over 25 years and we pretty much look at Overstreet as garbage, it might be good as a ID book but thats about it. Too many people get caught up with prices, thats what has killed our hobby. Heres a few pics of some of my stuff
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/DSC05784.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/DSC05785.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/DSC05786.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/DSC06641.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/DSC06646.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/DSC06647.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/DSC06655.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/DSC06648.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/thDSCF0393-1.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/thDSCF0553.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/thDSCF1517.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/thDSCF1518.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/thDSCF1519.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/thDSCF1520.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/thDSCF1521.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/jcinpc/coralheads/DSC04705.jpg)
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ya, i only bought it as a referance,that way i would know what what looks like and such
dont take this the wrong way please
but that makes me sick lol
man i wish i could find just one artifact point.
ever since i was kid walking the fileds on relatives farms picking rocks,i always looked for points
never found a one,but like i said.i may have found my first artifact
pic will be up tomorrow
you are a very lucky guy to find so many,and they are nice uns too 8)
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I too walked the fields when I was a kid here in central Fl. I got tired of finding awesome but broken poiints. So I started digging when I got out of high school. I walk the shel mounds sites, I walk construction sites I dive the river ( for fossils) I have bone, stone, shell and pottery . I have some pics of some of Ricks points but they are buried somewhere on photo bucket, too long to dig through. I have a few Hillsborough sites right near my house.
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Well, Jeff, lets go dig some Hillsborough sites ;D I wasn't trying to hit on the prices as much as I'm like you, Overstreet is a joke. What I was getting at is you , Rick and others have better JUNK than what is in his book, compared to his price quotes. And my pictures of Ricks stuff iss buried too.
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I guess from a artifact hunters standpoint, I live in a pretty rich area. I've picked them up all my life. From plowed fields to ditches, to yards, driveways, and in the woods. You name it and I've probably found some kind of point there. ;D
The craziest place I ever found one was on top of a fallen log in the woods. A big red oak had blown over and another one fell right beside it. Laying on top of one of them was a woodland type point that had washed out of the root wad of the other one.
Digging is pretty much not an option around here. The ground is about as hard as concrete. You'd dig till you passed out and probably not find a flake.
With permission, you can dig overhangs and caves and still find some pretty nice stuff as long as you don't find any burials...that's a big no no. I've picked a few up right on top of the dirt in a cave or two around here.
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Shannon, you would crap your pants at some old places around here. A site called Buddy Lake near here is pot mocked with chest deep or deeper holes dug. When you walk into the woods it looks like it had a Bombing mission called in. And what's bad is you keep finding nic, Coral, heat treated Chips that deep. You can't stop digging. ::)
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I've helped dig several graves before. It takes a half dozen men, half a day to dig a hole big enough to bury a man in around here.
Digging is work, no matter where it is. But I think I could kick a hole out big enough to bury a horse in half a day down there. ;D It's WAY different than it is here.
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Have to agree with you guys about Overstreet. It is what it is.
Tim, check out this link for more info about Minnesota projectile typology.
http://www.tcinternet.net/users/cbailey/lithic1.html
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Tim the problem we have as far as finding points is we were covered in glaciers for thousands of years and stuff has been buried deep and ground up on
top of the fact that there is very little knappable stone in the region. There are a few sites in Michigan for chert, Wisconsin has Hixton silified sandstone.
From what I've read about the UP is that most of the really old points found up here are quartzite and there few and far between.
I also have never found a point :'(
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yup some folks are luckier than others when it comes to finding artifacts
shannon and jc are two of them folks.
if i make it to florida next month jeff,we should get together for a little while and maye you could help me find my first artifact point ;)
thanks for the link arappaho,i'm gona tossthat if my fav's
dana, yup our region sucks.
i think i am going to get pics of the ones my uncle has and submit them to overstreet :)
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Boy, Eddie, you never offered to show "ME" Ricks collection...... ::)
Wayane
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Ricks never home, Wayne. He'll be at the Dade City Knap-In
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well here is what may or may not be,you guys tell me,my first found artifact.
i found this in an outcropping of gravel on the side of a hill by the swamp that i have been culling osier.
you can see what appears to be flakes that have been knocked off.on the bottom edge there is a slight notch that actually fits
the average diameter of the osier in the swamp area.it seems to fit the hand quit well also.
im thinking it may be a scraper of some sort,or its just a busted rock ;D :D ;)
it looks to be just the average type of rock that we have in these parts.real grainy and somewhat granite like
heres the pics,let me know if its just a busted rock that i should just toss or if its something i should keep around.
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/8115/1001427n.jpg)
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/790/1001428v.jpg)
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/3247/1001430d.jpg)
thanks for peeking
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Looks like a s#x stone to me ::) ;D
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I'm with shanon.. looks like a indian s#x stone.
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I also bought the Overstreet guide 11th Edition not quite two weeks ago from Amazon. It was $21 plus $4 shipping. I bought it to help with names and to help identify point shapes.
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Looks like s#x stone to me also.
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OK, I feel like you guys are waiting for someone to send on a snipe hunt.... so I am going to ask.... what is a s#x stone?
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How old are ya Steven ??? Definately a s#x stone Tim :)
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Its a F@#Kn rock. ;D
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Now do you get it Steven? To me it looks like a very old POFR......same lines as in the other posts....first two letters stand for plain ol and the last letter stands for rock...... ::) Do you see a pattern here yet? Sorry Sailordad, but from the pictures it is what it looks like,......However, that does not conclude that it was not ever used as a tool. It very well could have been a hide scraper, a nut cracker, (all types ;D), or it could have been thrown at someone, thereby making it a weapon, which is a tool. So " Imagine if you will......" It's October, a slight tinge of winter in the crisp and clear air......an Indian encampment, in the birch, near a lake. There are Birch Bark canoes, on the shore, and in the water with Indians, paddling to shore, with deer, and other food sources in their canoes. On shore, the Women are preparing hides, and next to the fires, are Women and children, cooking wild rice, ducks, and wild onions. One Woman asks another older Woman, in a rather, rude, and caustic manner, to toss that rock to her so she can pulverize some cattail roots. The older Woman gives her a not so friendly look and tosses the rock to her. Well ok she throws it at her, and clocks her just above the eyebrows, and knocks her out cold. :o The other Women look at the old woman and say, Barking Squirrel, why you hit with Squatting Toad, with rock so hard it knocked little chips off of it? And Barking Squirrel says, she needed it! ::)
So you see, even though it may not look like a well used tool, it could have been used well. ;D
P.S. You could use it as a tool......paper weight, a Wo Ti stone, (Good luck stone ) a hide scraper, a nut smacker......meat tenderizer, door stop, spacer to hold up the front porch, key hider, etc.
Wayne
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Jesse, I'm not sure, maybe an ugly F@#Kn rock? :D
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OK, I bit and I get it. It is a S#X rock and I am a F@#Kn idiot. :-[ But I did bag 8 snipe and I am hoping to find some way to use the feathers other than lining my mouth. :)
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I thought we had the nastiest, grainiest quartzite on the continent here, but I think you've got us beat, Tim. ;D
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For Sale: Neolithic Ice Scraper today only $5000 ;D
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Aww, don't feel so bad Steven, I'm sure you will find a use for that bag, and whistle. ;D You might want to spit those feathers out first though...... ;) You just have to understand the mind set on here......it is winter, and some are house bound, and some are just that way year round...... ::)
Wayne
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The idea behind overstreet is to give a general guideline to collectors who try to sale there artifacts and to help you identify your artifact. If you look up a certain type, like a Dalton you will notice that next to the name there are references to other artifacts because they are called by a different names in other areas. I hoe this helps and that you concentrate on your collecting and not on some weird name that you really dint need to refer to.
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Hey, I don't feel bad. I now know the difference between a S#X stone and a S*!t stone. And as soon as Tim brings the price down, I'm gonna buy it. I'm thinking I'm gonna put that sucker up on ebay as gen-u-wine Neolithic Ice Scraper and make a killen. >:D
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ok so its not really anymore than a rock :(
well atleast i have gottne some eal god chuckles from reading the post from all of you ;D :D
wayne your story made me laught so hard,i read it on my lunch break,i lamost spewed half of my sandwich onto my laptop screen
so after reading that,i am keeping ot for a conversation piece ;) .
i am also going to print out your story wayne and tape it to the rock,that way ifn anyome asks about it i can tell them to just read the
historical document thats with it,total hilarity.
i really needed a good laugh today,and ya'll made sure i got one too.thank you
steven, i dont know why folks think snipe hunting ais a farce. we actually have season here in mn for them,no joke just check out the mn dnr website
and sorry i dont plan on lowerein the price,or selling it even. i will treasure this s*#t rock for ever,thanks to you guys. ;D
thanks again everyone,i realy enjoyed your responses. i am still laughing about them.
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Well Sailordad, I am glad you got a laugh out of that. :) I hope you didn't pass your sandwhich through your nose? :P Yeah, you could use the story as an authentification doccument. ;) Yep we have snipe season down here also. Steve, they look like wood cock, only gray, to a gray tan like coloring, unlike the brown coloring the Woodcock has, but just as tasty! ;) It has been a long time since I have hunted them, but they were fun.
Wayne