Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: Mechslasher on January 25, 2010, 10:19:37 pm
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don't know if this belongs here are arrows, but here goes. there is a thread on the leatherwall where someone asked about hunting with light arrows. i posted that i have heard and seen evidence of light arrows bouncing off ribs. long story short, i was called crazy as hell. i have skinned in the neighborhood of 700-1000 deer and found broadheads in ribs and other bones. after about 20+ posts, i went to check out some stuff written by dr. ashby. i feel safe in saying that he is the foremost expert on arrow performance and this is some of his experiences with light arrows:
"Three times I've seen arrows stopped on nearly broadside
shots by the entrance-side ribs of modest size pigs – with two
of those bouncing back. All three of those shots were with
high-poundage bows (the lightest-draw being a 65# compound),
but with poorly selected arrow setups. One PH I was co-guiding
with, Ben Bronkhorst, also had a client's arrow bounce back
from a warthog's rib. The arrow swapped ends and passed
between himself and the client. That was on a shot from 15
feet. The very light weight carbon arrow, from a 70# compound,
tipped with a light-weight multi-blade broadhead hit only a
rib on entrance. Total penetration, measured against the blood
and tissue on the broadhead was a mere 22 millimeters (0.87").
I've also seen arrows stopped by whitetail and impala
ribs, scapulas, shoulder bones, hip bones, leg bones and
spines. My collection of broadheads recovered by meat
processors from rifle killed deer is steadily growing. There's
no question that someone, somewhere is definitely having
penetration problems, even on whitetails!"
several are back peddling now and saying anything is possible. all of a sudden, maybe i'm not crazy as hell.
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On a hunting trip to Kentucky several years ago, one of the locals had shot a deer with his compound. My buddies little Dachsund trailed it for a mile and a half before he jumped the deer and ended up chewing it's hamstring, or back leg tendon. If that hadn't happened it would have got up and probally run another mile.
We got it back to camp and skinned it for camp meat. When we went home they told us to take what was left with us, While I was cleaning and bagging the rest I damn near cut my finger off. It had one of those, open on contact blades stuck part way through the scapula and I hit it with my finger. He was shooting light weight points and arrows and got about 2" of penetration.
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all of a sudden, maybe i'm not crazy as hell.
I don't know about that, you go hunting with Eddie don't you.
There is absolutely a point where the arrow becomes too light and will bounce off. I can reproduce this on a Styrofoam target in my back yard. The first bows I made for my kids were super light. If you shot the light arrows they bounced off. I could shoot one of my 500 grain arrows from the same bow and it would stick, provided I could lob it enough to hit the target. ;)
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i've now had a couple of these fellows contact me to say that ashby only worked with large african game, but the above quote clearly says mid-size pig, whitetails, and other mid-size animals. i guess ron "tater salad" white is right afteral, you can't cure stupid.
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I'm a firm believer in heavy arrows for hunting. I'll take kinetic energy over speed any day.
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yeah I was reading an article of some "bow hunting" magazine at Barnes and Noble. It was all compound stuff. But the main article was about arrow weight and FOC. Talking about nowadays compound hunters are using very light around 300 grain arrows with their 300fps fancy bows just to get a flatter trajectory with no conscience of penetration and force.
I've shot a compound...its nothing fun to me...But who needs a flatter trajectory when all of the compound hunters I talk to never take a shot more than 20 yards???
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At what point do you consider an arrow light, lets say in grains/ lb?
10g/lb seems to be some type of accepted norm so would anything less be considered light?
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i would say light is less than 9 g/p. i had one gentleman suggest that it was perfectly ok to hunt big game with a 350gr arrow with 3" fletching. he regularly takes 35-45 yard shots, he didn't say his success rate on these shots. of course, when i saw a pic of one of his kills, i noticed a sight on his glass bow. thought this was odd, at the least.
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If a 40-45# bow will kill a deer, then let's assume that means with a 400-450 gr. arrow would about be the minimum. So the weight of your arrow is a better indication than just the bow weight, since the arrow can't really accept alot of excess energy, or else we'd all be shooting flight arrows at 200+ fps.
So going up against a scapula with a 350 gr arrow would be like trying to shoot through a shoulder with a 35# bow. And that's not something alot of people will look so kindly on ::)
My evil-shafted-arrows weigh in at 600 gr. so they would have the force of a 60# bow even though I'm shooting 70-80# at the moment. Which I can believe.
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Last year I hunted with a 47#at 24" bow and was shooting 500+ grain arrows, the trajectory wasn't great but I felt they had the umph necessary to get the job done. Unfortunately in six weeks of bow hunting I only saw one deer and that was at 30+yards >:(
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For hunting I don't take into account the g/p. I think anything under 400 is very light, but for those that shoot 40# that is 10GPP. I often shoot less than 9g/p because my bows are in the mid to high 60s and my arrows always seem to come in around 500 grains.
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........An simple equation. "would you rather get hit by a pencil going 250 fps or a telephone poll going 150fps ?" :o Ok to start a new discussion or is it argument....."does speed kill or kinetic energy ?" Personally I would rather take a 243 round than a 50/70. Discussion anyone ? Oops Chris didnt mean to hijack youre thread. ;)
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you can take either one if im shooting i wont hit ya. ha ha. my hu7nting arrows are bout 540 grains my target arrows are now carbon bout 415 grains. heavy for hunting.
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I usually 3-D shoot with the arrows and bow I hunt with. Probally why my score is always low after 40 targets. I'm usually good on the 2,3,4, targets.
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i guess ron "tater salad" white is right afteral, you can't cure stupid.
Nope You Can't Fix Stupid.... ;D...and Ron is from 20 miles away from Me....and He still Claims Fritch Texas as His Old Stompin Grounds... :P
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Well you can take a log and hit something at 3 miles an hour, and then take a feather and bring it up to light speed and get the same result. That is plain physics. What is practical in the real world is another matter. This is purely conjecture, but I suspect that even the "fastest" compounds can't bring some of the super light arrows up to a high enough speed to get the same effect as the "slower" traditional bows with heavy arrows. The light arrows will fly flatter and get there quicker, but just won't have as much energy left on target. I have no idea where the line is and it would take a very scientific approach with release machines and the like to get real results. Then you have to take into account angles and muscle variance for animal to animal even within species... More than I want to deal with. Personally, I think it is more practical to use a heavier arrow, up to a point of course. I also don't want to have to shoot up at an 80* angle to hit a target 20yds away because of arrow drop, or shoot a really heavy draw because the bow spent all of it's energy just getting the arrow going.
Choo-wa-chobee: I agree. I'd rather be on the giving end of the 50/70 for one or two shots, but I'd much rather use the .243 if I'm gonna put a few hundred rounds down range. Just like I'd rather use a 45-50# rather than a 70-80# bow to target shoot all day. You can use the heavier ones, but ouch. Always a compromise.
Swamp
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my phylosophy is that i want an arrow that will perform in a worst case scenario. this arrow should be flying a minimum of 150fps, with an foc of at least 15-20% and weight of 500gr. all these are minimum numbers, imo. this should give enough momentum to penetrate all but the toughest of bones, in a worst case scenario. most of the animals i've killed with a bow were not hit where i was aiming, simply because animals move! eddie can tell ya'll about the first boar i killed at alexacarrie plantation. ;D released the arrow with him broadside, but the arrow hit him in the jaw with him facing me. all of the idio...i mean gentlemen that argued always came back to the number of pass throughs they've had on broadside shots using light arrows. hell, at any point in the respiratory process the chest cavity is just alot of hot air separated with a bunch of spongy tissue so what wouldn't pass through this? but what happens when the animal moves, say take a quarter step facing you? now you are looking at having to punch through the humerous or the shoulder blade, but the arrow is on its way. the only thing i can think of is that in some parts of this country, animals are rather lazy and move very slow to validate their opinions.
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I'm with you Mechslasher, 500 gr at 150 fps is a good minimum. There are alot of hunters who've killed elk and moose with 500 gr arrows moving at 175+ fps, and obviously heavier arrows have proven their worth more than once!
So far 600 gr is all I can really get out of my arrows at the moment to keep the weight, so I'm just trying to tweak a little more speed from my heavier bows. Nice to be able to shoot the same arrows from bows 65-80# though :)
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one thing to consider...on impact a lighter arrow will flex more and that is lost energy for penetration.
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If a 40-45# bow will kill a deer, then let's assume that means with a 400-450 gr. arrow would about be the minimum. So the weight of your arrow is a better indication than just the bow weight, since the arrow can't really accept alot of excess energy, or else we'd all be shooting flight arrows at 200+ fps.
So going up against a scapula with a 350 gr arrow would be like trying to shoot through a shoulder with a 35# bow. And that's not something alot of people will look so kindly on ::)
My evil-shafted-arrows weigh in at 600 gr. so they would have the force of a 60# bow even though I'm shooting 70-80# at the moment. Which I can believe.
Not necessarily....It's very possible to build a carbon arrow that will finish out at around 300 grains or less, including the point that will spine out at 70 -80 lbs. So saying a 350 grain arrow can only impart the energy of a 35# bow is not really so. 10 grains of arrow weight doesn't equal 1# of spine stiffness, and the weight of the arrow doesn't limit the amount of force that can be applied to it, the materail does.
I'm like Justin in that I don't rely on GPP of draw. If a 450 grain arrow comming out of a decent performing 45# bow is enough...then that same arrow coming out of a decent performing 60# bow is more than enough. I also don't think that just because a fella shoots an 80-100# bow, that an 800-100grain arrow is necessary.
I like arrows in the 500-600 grain range regardless of the bow weight.
BTW, I've personally seen arrows bounce off a deers scapula ::)
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I like heavy arrows from traditional or wood bows but also know that light carbon arrows from high powered compounds will always penetrate deeper into a foam target than nine. About breaking bones on game I dont know. The Asby test were conducted using very heavy bows and they penetrated deeply with the right arrows. I say to shoot as heavy of a bow as you are comfortable with and can shoot well and with heavy arrows. Kenneth
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SawFiler- I didn't mean that the you had to follow a 10 gpp formula, that'd make me a complete hypocrit ;D. I just meant that if you're shooting a 300 gr arrow from a 90# bow, it won't be hitting with the full force of a 90# bow. Even though the bow is very heavy, it will be hitting as if you were shooting a lighter draw weight. Of course, how I worded it the first time was still filled with errors either way :D
I think one of the reasons modern compounds can do as well as they do is because of the small diameter of the carbon arrows, not really all that speed. Less friction, better penetration.
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There's more to good hunting arrows than just momentum or high speed. You need broadheads with an edge that won't roll over as soon as they hit something
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Kegan....Here is something to Chaw on....when I was Hunting and Shooting the 3-D Circuit here in Texas...New Mexico and Oklahoma....I shot nothing but Carbon Express CXL 350's ...these Arrows are twice the size of a Standard Carbon Arrow...9.3mm....but Weigh only 8.3 grains per inch of Shaft....so a 30 inch Arrow...249gr...plus Nock...10gr....plus Insert...28gr...plus point...125gr...was only 412 grains of Total Arrow Weight...pushed out of a 70 pound Bowtech Patriot @ 346fps.....I never had an Arrow stay in an Animal...all total Pass Throughs...with Monster Fat...But Super Light Arrows...If I was going to go bvack to Auto-Cad Designed Super Bows again...I would go back to these Light Arrows too...They are Devastating on Game Animals
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I was just reading where Howard Hill shot 700 grain arrows from his 110# longbow. Well under 10 grain per pound.
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Mike- I don't really see a 400 gr arrow as that light, especially sicne we know a 40# bow is good for deer. Get that thing going super fast and it'd be super-duper lethal (technical term :)). I've jsut spoken to a few archers my age who use compounds who lightened their arrows to 200-300 grains just so they could get it going faster... and then some of them put mechanical heads on 'em.
I think I've been phrasing it wrong- I'm in the same boat as Justin and Shannon. I think a minimum weight of 500 gr is a good place to start with a traditional bow, and heavier is more helpful- regardless of the bow's draw weight. I don't think I've ever actually shot a 10 gpp arrow :D
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easier to stop a go-kart going 90mph than a freight train going 5mph. ;D
same concept applies to arras.
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........An simple equation. "would you rather get hit by a pencil going 250 fps or a telephone poll going 150fps ?" :o Ok to start a new discussion or is it argument....."does speed kill or kinetic energy ?" Personally I would rather take a 243 round than a 50/70. Discussion anyone ? Oops Chris didnt mean to hijack youre thread. ;)
Interesting questions.
First to address your rifle analogy:
You must consider that the 243 is hypersonic and will disrupt much more tissue with hydrostatic shock than a subsonic 50/70 bullet that just disrupts a 50 Cal. surface.
The 243 will dump all of its energy in your body, and probably (Depending on bullet construction) not exit.
Considering the thickness of your body, after punching a 1/2" diameter hole through your body, all of the energy the bullet is still carrying will be useless to cause you any harm.
So, trying to compair light/fast arrows with slower/heavier arrows that are still very far below the hydrostatic threshold, makes the issue of tissue damage caused between bullets and arrows an Apples/Oranges compairson.
Now, Pencil/telephone pole comparison. Would you rather be hit by a little girl on a tricycle peddling as fast as she can, or by an 18 wheeler, going as fast as the little girl can push it?
Again, we have a major difference in mass. To make a fair comparison both projectiles should be assumed being launched by the same bow.
So a 50 Gr (0.007+... pounds) pencil shot at 500 fps (340.9 MPH) would carry about 3.57 Pounds Feet of momentum....
Now take your 1000 pound (7,000,000 gr) telephone pole and drive it a velocity to match the pencil's momentum (Shot out of same bow) = 0.00357 feet per second, (.189+ MPH) . Not much punch.
Also, to be fair, shave down the first several feet on the front of the telephone pole to equal the same surface area as the pencils. Your telephone pole will still only be traveling less than 1/5th mile an hour and very slowly disrupt the same amount of tissue.
The pencil telephone pole analogy reflects too large of a difference in size to easily relate to.
I will concede that a heaver arrow will be better at breaking a shoulder or a hip bone, but will the light faster arrow be sufficient"
I've never had a hunting arrow kill a big game animal by the energy it impacted with. It is the broadhead that causes a bleed out and death, not a stompin impact....
I've broken ribs on both sides of a couple of white tails shot with a 65 pound recurve and 450 Gr arrows. The other broadside hits that didn't strike a bone were clear shoot throughs.
Here is a picture of a deer that a friend of mine shot last year. This is a standard 29" POC shaft. Penetration through the skull was sufficient. (Even wasted some energy by over penetration.)
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t175/SteveCover/Shooting/Archery/Hunting/DeerArrowKill.jpg)
I guess, I just don't understand why arrows above about 450 grains would be wanted for normal hunting.
Anyway, My 2 Cents
Steve
Certified Firearms & Reloading Instructor.
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Steve- good stuff! I think it goes back to what you define light as. Despite the fact that I don't actually shoot 10 gpp, I think of arrow weight in those terms (so a 450 gr arrow would be no less than 45#). Not really too light. But my own arrows are 600 gr. because my bows aren't efficient enough to get a lighter-than-that arrow moving any faster than that. As the forefathers of bowhunting have proven, a heavier arrow carries more momentum for either a less efficient bow or a larger, denser animal (African).
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Steve- good stuff! I think it goes back to what you define light as. Despite the fact that I don't actually shoot 10 gpp, I think of arrow weight in those terms (so a 450 gr arrow would be no less than 45#). Not really too light. But my own arrows are 600 gr. because my bows aren't efficient enough to get a lighter-than-that arrow moving any faster than that. As the forefathers of bowhunting have proven, a heavier arrow carries more momentum for either a less efficient bow or a larger, denser animal (African).
Good points Amigo,
I'm NOT condemning the use of heavier arrows. I'm just trying to get my head around why a 600 Gr. arrow would be desireable over one 3/4th that weight for Deer/Elk sized game.
Washington State requires a minimum of 437 Gr. Arrows for hunting... By my definition, arrows lighter than that are "Light Weight Arrows".
It is all a matter of definition..... A mistake I made when I posted.... ("Define what your talking about first"... I didn't)
I believe the arrow that Howard Hill used to kill an elephant was over 1000 Gr. In weight, shot out of a 120# bow. (Long ago memory in play here.... Please correct if I'm wrong).
Fred Bear also killed an elephant, as I'm sure other archers have. There is little doubt that the arrows used were as heavy as possible...
Your, explanation of bow efficiency, is clearing up the subject for me....
Appreciate you're responce..
Steve
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I think that's all it really comes down to, efficiency. Steve Gardner and others have mentioned that the heavier the arrow, the more efficient the bow will shoot. Hill used a 1700 gr arrow out of a 115# straight bow, and got 31" of penetration. Fred Bear, however, used an arrow around 800 gr if I'm not mistaken though.
Here's how I see it in terms of final killing power. Say you have two bows: one is quite efficient and will shoot a 450 gr arrow at, let's say, 185 fps with no more shock or noise than a 600 gr arrow. The second bow, however, will only shoot the 145 gr arrow 5 fps more than the 600 gr arrow at, let's say 160 fps. However, becase bow two is less efficient, the lighter arrow will also come with more noise and handshock, the energy going into the bow and string and not the arrow.
I shoot these small-diameter 600 gr arrows out of bows 75# or more at times (my heaviest bow, a real dog, being 86#), and am just now starting to think about making a lighter bow of 65#. Given those weights, that 600 gr arrow could be considered "light", with a 450 gr arrow almost a dry fire :D!
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I think that's all it really comes down to, efficiency. Steve Gardner and others have mentioned that the heavier the arrow, the more efficient the bow will shoot. Hill used a 1700 gr arrow out of a 115# straight bow, and got 31" of penetration. Fred Bear, however, used an arrow around 800 gr if I'm not mistaken though.
Here's how I see it in terms of final killing power. Say you have two bows: one is quite efficient and will shoot a 450 gr arrow at, let's say, 185 fps with no more shock or noise than a 600 gr arrow. The second bow, however, will only shoot the 145 gr arrow 5 fps more than the 600 gr arrow at, let's say 160 fps. However, because bow two is less efficient, the lighter arrow will also come with more noise and handshock, the energy going into the bow and string and not the arrow.
I shoot these small-diameter 600 gr arrows out of bows 75# or more at times (my heaviest bow, a real dog, being 86#), and am just now starting to think about making a lighter bow of 65#. Given those weights, that 600 gr arrow could be considered "light", with a 450 gr arrow almost a dry fire :D!
Explanation finally making sense to me..... I can now see the reasoning behind the heavier arrow choice.
Also, it is true that two arrows with the same drag coefficient fired at the same velocity would have pretty much the same trajectory (Within a reasonable velocity range, such as from hunting weight bows).
So, a heavy arrow would not be giving up much if anything at normal archery shooting distances, and its inherent dampening ability would make it a better choice in a heavy bow..
Thanks for being patient with my ignorance.
Steve
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As far as I can tell, they would have the same tradjectory. Drag really is the only thing that would slow them down.
"Light" arrows make longer range shooting much easier, but at close range (under 30 yards) there wouldn't be much of a change.
Hardly, happy to help :)
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Well you can take a log and hit something at 3 miles an hour, and then take a feather and bring it up to light speed and get the same result. That is plain physics. What is practical in the real world is another matter. This is purely conjecture, but I suspect that even the "fastest" compounds can't bring some of the super light arrows up to a high enough speed to get the same effect as the "slower" traditional bows with heavy arrows. The light arrows will fly flatter and get there quicker, but just won't have as much energy left on target. I have no idea where the line is and it would take a very scientific approach with release machines and the like to get real results. .
Swamp
I think that this is ilusstrated well when you look at steel shot vs lead. Nobody argues that the steels better.
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If a 450g arrow is good out of a 45# bow (10g/#),,,
I don't see why you'd need a 1,000g arrow out of a 100# bow?
That same 450g seems just better from the 100# bow but at much less than 10g / #.
To me, that makes the 10gpp rule...... non-applicable? ???
Anyways, I'm on a venture with Boo & cane arrows. They are light and wonder what I'm going to do for hunting (weight) arrows.
Definately a strong cut on contact BH.
But in a 50# bow where should my weight be and how? Can only add so much weight to the pile end.
Thinik I'll start a new topic on that. Don't want to go off topic too much.
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i don't know about steel shot being better. i've had steel shot bounce off geese and ricochet into the water, 00 buckshot never has ;D
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to me, the 10gpp rule only applies to realistic hunting weight bows for whitetails, 45-65#. when you get up to 70-100# bows then you can start dropping down to 7-9gpp and still get excellent performance. 500gr arrows are, imo, the minimum wieght to achieve adequate momentum on whitetail size animals. lighter arrows simply "bleed" off more energy during penetration than heavier arrows. my favorite set of cane arrows weigh in at 750gr. and one of them was stopped cold on the "matriarchs" neck vertebrae at under 10 yards while the other penetrated most of the length of her body. i think she would still be walking around today had i been shooting light arrows.
riacher, i'd put a 160-190gr grizzly on the end of your arrows and start hunting. your foc would go up which would add to your arrows momentum and penetration. no more worries.
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Riarcher- It goes back to what I say about the arrows also not being heavy enough to use any of the extra energy from the bow due to low efficiency. If you shot a 450 gr arrow from a 100# bow, the bow would bascially try to rip your arm off while the arrow might only go slightly faster than, say, a 65# bow. That being said, a 500 gr arrow from a bow heavier than 50# but with higher efficiency might be just as lethal as a similiar weight bow shooting a 600 gr arrow, especially if you take into account other factors like fletchings, shaft diameter, recovery speed, and broadheads. It's all a balance, and not a precise science.