Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: dogwood3 on April 03, 2010, 11:37:40 pm
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I have been playing around with a 50" osage bow modeled from an actual native american bow. It draws about 20 inches. It has been a lot of fun. It makes me curious if anyone has actually tried hunting with one of these, and how heavy the weight needs to be at that draw length to make a useful hunting bow. I believe the bow is about 40 pounds and it seems pretty anemic for anything other than small game. If anyone has had any experience with native american style archery please let me know how it worked.
Dogwood (John)
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Native American Pony / Horse Bows were made to shoot Pinch Style with a Short Draw and no real definite Anchor Point. Because they were only Shooting from a very close distance off a Horses Back...they gave up Long Distance Accuracy for the Mobility and Ease of Shooting from the Back of a Running Horse with a Short and easy to Wield Horse Bow...if there is anything easy about shooting from a running Beasts Back.... ::) I myself would never Hunt with a Bow of the Draw Length...and take a chance at wounding and losing an Animal ...only to have it die in Vain somewhere and not be found and used...I would not recommend one for Hunting anything besides a Blind at a Short Distance...JMO
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About 15 years ago I built my shortest bow ever at the time I wasn't thinking indain bow.Not 50 but it was 56"s nock to nock 58#'s @ 26"s.I killed a 3 point at 13 yards and a doe that season at 18,19 yards.I kept it for about another 4 years and took it down off the rack and shoot it once and a while.Traded it for a stave,strip of rawhide and 2 strips of bambo.I saw the guy about 2 years later and he still used it some he said.He dsaid he also killed 2 doe's with it.
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There was an article about short bows back in PA. I thought it was really neat. They were about 48", using a 22" draw. They were, however, a bit on the hefty side, ranging- I believe- from about 65# to one at a hefty 80#. The one or two deer they mention being taken were pass throughs at close range (15-25 yards).
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I have examined several bows in the Grayson collection at U. of MO, and have looked at the examples in Hamm's books on native bows. Even most of the woodland bows (Fox, Osage, etc. )were very short by our standards, and I know they used these bows for deer, elk, bison,and black bear. If that is true, wouldn't a short drawn bow of sufficient weight be suited to tree stand and ground blind for whitetails? Anyway, I thought making the bow, arrows, quiver, arrows, and points would make an interesting project. Learning to shoot well enough to humanely take deer would be another project. Maybe I could get some stimulus money.
John M. (Dogwood)
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Steve Alley, I believe, has used West Coast replicas to cleanly take deer. I personally think that if you can get a 400+ gr. arrow moving quickly with a razor sharp broadhead, and you can routinley hit accurately with it, there would be no issue. Personally, I think the hardest part of the whole thing would be getting used to shooting with a short draw and floating anchor.
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I have used a 40-lb osage self bow that is 56" long and I've killed a number of animals with it. It draws about 28", but it only pulls 40 lbs. It even has a sinew string and it shoots very well. As stated earlier, Steve Allely has killed several deer with his short west coast replica bows. In fact, this past fall he killed a blacktail with a 42 lb sinew backed juniper bow that was a copy of the one that Ishi used. That deer ran about 80 yards and collapsed. Steve told me that his arrow hit exactly where he wanted it to go, and therein lies the key: accurate shot placement. Even short bows are deadly on big game if you put the arrow in the right place. My advice is to use whatever you are most accurate with, because that is the most important part. Of course you must have arrows that fly perfectly and have sharp points.
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First of all, Billy, how did you learn to make sinew strings?
Second,I've noticed that a short draw is often very accurate, at least for me. I've been fighting target panic for years,especially while hunting. Some of my best shots on deer, I'm embarrassed to say, were short draws. So, the idea of native archery seemed to fit my situation.
Third, it is interesting we don't take native american archery more seriously. We seem to discount it completely in favor of English archery.
John (Dogwood)
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Hey Billy
I love short bows,my perfect idea for a bow is a horse bow. Check out some
of the Korean bows. You can get some great glass ones at a decent price. I own
of those and also a Hunish type. They are short fast and depending on your choice
very strong. The rest is up to you.
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I've been making sinew strings for years. Basically, making a sinew string is just like twisting up a piece of 2-ply cordage. Of course, the sinew is much shorter then a bowstring, so as each little strand runs out you must splice in additional strands. Sinew bowstrings are time consuming to make, because you have several strands in each ply, and all the strands decrease in diameter as you twist the string. you have to almost continually add sinew strands to each ply in order to maintain even diameter (which is very important).
I have an article I was writing for Primitive Archer that shows how to make a sinew string, but it's been sitting in limbo for months. Maybe I should finish it and send it in.
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The main reason most folks don't consider NA archery is for the simple facts that A. a face anchor is easier to aim with, and B. a longer draw is one of the easiest and truest ways to get more power for hunting. So most folks find it preferable.
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I agree the long draw is an easy way to increase velocity, but I'm not sure it is the most accurate aiming method for hunting. I remember Jay Massey said his accuracy improved when he shortened his draw and went to "floating" anchor point. I've noticed a draw with the base of the thumb at the chin is pretty good at objects at close range.
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I for one suffered alot of grief until I extended my draw (about 3.5" total when I was done). I wound up putting alot less stress on my joints and muscles and became much more comfortable- even with my heavier bows (70-85#). More comfortable, slightly better penetration, and more accurate- all plusses. It's all an alignment thing. Proper form is proper because it takes advantage of bone structure to put less effort in the muscles and help make you more consistent.
Of course, if you can maintain proper accuracy, then you can shoot how you choose :).
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My first and only bow ive made that was good enough for hunting is 54" and at around 54 or 55 pounds. I killed a groundhog with it and ive hunted turkeys. i would back if it i was you if you make one. Mine has cracks on the back of it but i wrapped them with artifcial sinew and glue.
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I hunted with a 48" sinew backed bow drawing around 47# @ 22" last year with total confidence. I hunted public land and never had a shot but, I can hit very well out to 25-30 yards. 20 yards would be me cutoff for big game. It takes a lot of work to become proficent with short daw bows but it's doable. If you stay with one bow you get pretty good in a short time. I wrap sinew around the arrow shaft at 22" and when I feel the sinew I know I'm at full draw and let go, also my thumb joint is in the corner of my month. My arrows are about 30" long and weigh around 600 grains which also helps with accuracy, short arrows are very hard for me to be accurate.
If you want to hunt with short draw bows just shoot them and get comfortable with the draw length.
Take care,
Don
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I personally don't use bows that short,but,my son in law used a bow season before last he built.A 48'' osage,about 50# @ 25".He killed a buck and a hog with it. God Bless
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I have converted to shooting only short draw bows (under 24" draw) and I am pretty good out to about 15-20 yards. But longer range accuracy is very difficult for me with my short bows.
I've hunted a few times with them but never anything larger than jack rabbits. For deer or larger I would probably make a new bow that pulled at least 60#...and would make sure my arrowheads are as sharp as possible. Obsidian would be my first choice.
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I bought the floor tillered 48" paddle bow from rudder bow and tillered it to 55# @24" and extend my thumb to touch the corner of my mouth at full draw . I never bow hunted from a stand and the 67 "Osage was like hitting every thing the little paddle bow was not finished but I put some wax on it and hit the damp deer stand it would of killed easy if a deer would of made its way to me .When I was ready to come down from my stand I shot three arrows that would of fit into a snuff can at 9 yards. I would doe hunt with it but for thick chest bucks I don't know if it would take out both lungs of a big buck.
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Wodpow - that bow, at those ranges, with good shot placement might give you a pass through both lungs, doe or buck!
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Most of my bows are, according to most people, very short. I haven't done a whole lot of successful hunting, but all of it has been with bows under 60", and most under 50". It's not so much the power that causes problems, but the accuracy. Short bows are far more dificult to handle and shoot consistantly. If an archer is capable of getting the arrow where he needs to, the arrow will do the job.
I would say that, with properly matched arrows, a bow pulling 40lb@20" should be enough to take a deer. However, the kill may not be humane if you decide to push the limits. I would not feel comfortable hunting big game with a bow of that size. I personally have hunted with a 43" bow pulling 50lb@24" and a 47" bow pulling 45lb@25" and they worked very well and I would not hesitate to throw an arrow at a deer with them.
In the near future, though, I want to go the opposite extreme and make a replica english warbow to hunt pigs with. >:D
We need to remember that nearly all hunting by native americans was done with bows that were less than five feet long. They must function well enough to take game or they wouldn't have survived.
Sean
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Hey Dogwood,
I have hunted with my Ottawa 48" and Chippewa 52" and most of these are between 45# and 50# and all of them draw at least 25". I shoot bare-bow and off my hand.
I shoot in the NA style except that I have to use 3 fingers because of a crippled right (string) hand. I've killed more than a few deer with these bows (I will not shoot at more than 20 yards, and if for any reason the shot doesn't "feel" right I wont shoot either.)
If you practice the NA style you will learn to use your left brain.....that is the bow will not be upright, you wont use any aiming guide (I cant even see my arrow or bow while drawing, such is the concentration on my "spot") All that ya see with this shooting method is the arrow fletch will appear on the spot then dissappear as it passes through) You will also notice that spine of the shaft has little to no effect on the flight path either.....
They are good bows, they shoot accurately at reasonable hunting range.....just learn to take advantage of their attributes. As to draw weight 45# is plenty and most of my deer kills were through @ through....but really all the arrow has to do is penetrate both lungs and you have a quick and clean kill, likewise an arrow only has to penetrate 5-7 inches to sever the liver which will kill nearly as quickly.
Can't speak for noone but me....I shoot them, I like them. By the way since Ishi was mentioned.....his favorite hunting bow weight was 45#. If you would like please call me at (231) 587-8542 and I will relay to you what I was taught by a couple of Ottawa Elders.
Rich
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I have a 56 inch osage self bow that pulls 40-lbs at 28 inches. It even has a sinew string. I have racked up a surprising number of kills with it (small game and one raccoon) despite the relatively few times I've used it. I tell ya, I really like the lower weight bows. They are easy to draw, and their effortless draw means you can focus on your target much better. With practice you can be quite accurate with them. I am surprisingly accurate with mine.
But it isn't just for small game. I used this same little 40-lb bow and tested the penetration of very small stone bird points on a dead deer and had no problems getting those points to the far side of the chest wall. I wrote an article about the test and it was published in the June/July 2008 issue of Primitive Archer. If you want to see what a low-poundage bow can do to a big game animal, order that back issue and read the article. It'll make a believer out of you...it certainly did me.
Below is a pic of my latest kill with that little bow, taken this past winter. I aimed right for the shoulder of that squirrel and.....well....you can see where I hit him. The stone point cut his right lung completely in half, and when he fell outta the tree and started struggling, it almost cut the lung into thirds. The arrow is reed, foreshaft of dogwood, small stone point of Burlington chert. All wrappings were sinew.
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dogwood,
Will be posting a couple of bows here shortly 46" and 45" native bows that have draw weights of 46# and 44#......most all of mine will draw 26" and use hardwood arrows. So, I made up some 5/16" carrying stone heads. Shot them at a regular broadhead butt and here are the results. I was checking for penetration. The arrows were only 500+ grains and not my usual 700-750 grain stuff, so I figured these would not penetrate as well, but there is no doubt they would humanely kill deer, if not pass completely through.
Oh ya, the range to target was 15 yards. Trajectory was flat out to 20 yards (that's as far as I shot (didn't want to screw up any of the finely knapped points, made by Riley Concrete)
Rich
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Actually,
Ishis preferred hunting weight was 40 lbs,at his 25" draw.His arrows were about 380 grns with a small "Bird" point on the deadly end,made of Glass,collected along the Lassen Trail.When Pope had Ishi Test the effectiveness of his setup,on a Recently killed Deer,they witnessed the same type results,that Billy found.
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the floor tillered hickory paddle bow I bought from rudder bow I finished pulls 55#@21" I backed it ,with young deer rawhide. I hunted with it from a stand then I bought a harness and lean out farther and can use the longer bow now but the little paddle bow will put a arrow just as deep into a 3D target as the longer bow as long as I shoot the same arrows. I cut a center shot rest and built up the handle area and put on some beaver ball that were like short haired that I got from 3 rivers for a bigger bow and kept them instead of sending them back looks kind of neat and shoots good was going to check the speed at the bow shop but they already look at me strange enough the way it is with my hand made self bows.The only reason I don't shoot it more is the shooting styles change over is a bite and the string will pinch your fingers really bad at 55#@21.
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Switching to 3 fingers under fixed all my finger pinch problems.
I did some stump shooting sunday and was hitting pine cones regularly at 30 - 40 yards with a 48" osage with 30" cane arrows, 22"draw. Pretty much just like my longer draw bows.
Just showing that a short bow can be very accurate with practice. I don't feel hindered using short draw bows.
Don
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I killed a doe with my 52" sinew-backed osage. 55lbs @ 26" resulted in a complete pass-thru even breaking a rib on the way in! I understand many want to degenerate the validity of short bows in hunting, always saying that they were made for killing a running buffalo from horseback only a few feet away and all... but many forget about the Elk, Big Horn Sheep, Moose, and Deer that were taken just as well with the same style bows. it's not just for the plains indians, the west coast also used very short bows for hunting. Plus if you shoot a bow a few hundred times it becomes pretty much an extention of your hand anyway. just my $.02.
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I know this is an old thread,but i came back across it while surfin around.
Boofus,
Your post was worth more than.02.In fact it has a lot of truth and wisdom to it,based on experience,not speculation.Like you,i get a kick outa the statements of point blank range shooting on Buff.Anyone who makes these kind of statements,tells me,they havent had much experience with Buff.Dont let their size fool ya for one minute.They are quick and Catty and hot to fight.
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Hmmm...
I have a few left over splits that won't really make a good bow. However, shortened, bending the full legnth, and with a little sinew...
>:D
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I plan to hunt this season (squirrels and smaller white-tail deer) with a short native american style bow. The bow pulls 50 # at 22".
Now, consider this though:
1. My MAX draw length is only really about 24". That means drawing all the way back to the corner of my mouth at an 'anchor' point. So, 22 or 23 inches is not really any different to how I shoot a 'normal' longbow.
2. I shoot 'floating anchor style' anyway. I've practiced instinctive shooting since day one, so again, this style bow is fine for how I shoot.
3. I'm going to spend the first few weeks of October shooting at squirrels. If I get decent at that, then I'll be convinced I can cleanly shoot a deer come late October, early November.
4. I will not shoot at anything passed about 15 yards.
I have to believe that if you follow a set of guidelines that you are comfortable with, you should feel confident in your hunts with a shorter bow.
-Prof
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I made a 57" guava bendy handle bow for pig hunting. Handy in the brush, and deadly on stumps, but I've never drawn it on game. About 53 pounds at 30", it stacks& is not pleasant to shoot. Never had much luck w/ short draw, but my horseback days are over anyway. Most bows can hit the mark if you can, it's just easier and more pleasant with a man-sized stick.
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I've used 50 - 54" bows alot for small game. They're easy to maneuver in underbrush when I try to sneak up on squirrels for close shots. My latest short bow kill was a goose, with a 50", 65# @ 25" Modoc style bow. That worked out to be a good length for shooting from a kayak.
(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww48/Alpinbogen/Goose9-17-10016a.jpg)
(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww48/Alpinbogen/Goose9-17-10037a.jpg)