Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Marc St Louis on April 16, 2010, 10:40:05 am
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This is a bow I recently made for someone in CZ. This is about as heavy an Elm bow as I've ever made. It's 74" N to N and pulls 120# @ 32". Here's a few pictures, I won't bother with one of me trying to pull it back by hand as I can only get it back about 18".
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Marc-St-Louis/Warbows/125lb%20Elm%20Warbow/TopHornNock.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Marc-St-Louis/Warbows/125lb%20Elm%20Warbow/BottomHornNock.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Marc-St-Louis/Warbows/125lb%20Elm%20Warbow/BottomLimb.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Marc-St-Louis/Warbows/125lb%20Elm%20Warbow/BracedElmWarbow.jpg)
This is the full draw
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Marc-St-Louis/Warbows/125lb%20Elm%20Warbow/32.jpg)
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Nice bow, Marc. Is it a selfbow or did you back it? Also, what kind of elm?
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It's backed with a few layers of tung oil and shellac, in other words it's a selfbow. It's not White Elm and it's not Rock Elm. Could be Grey Elm or Red Elm. Frankly I gave up a long time ago trying to identify the different species and subspecies of Elm. All I know and care about is that it is a decent piece of Elm
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Mighty fine to get 120 out of a piece of Elm with almost no set.
It's obviously/presumably not the same as the Elm we used to get in the UK (Dutch Elm disease killed most of it) it looks much paler.
Still damn fine to get 120 out of anything without much set, and it's not overlong either.
I'm V impressed, just wish I could pull 120 :(.
We had a guy at the club the other day saying his bow was 102, I didn't want to join in the macho stuff at first but eventually took it, puuled it back to my ear and pronounced 'no way is that more than 90! '
He went and weighed it...came back and told me it was 80!.
Del
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It's actually more like 125# but I can't shoot it in and I figure it will lose a bit as the guy I made it for shoots the bow in. I can pull a 90# @ 32" bow back but when the draw weight climbs to well over 100# I can only get the bow back to 80# at best.
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Very nice! Schould we know some datas from the size of the center and tipps.
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Tiller looks great!
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The bow is 38mm wide by 32mm thick at the center and 13mm at the base of the nocks
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Again Marc, beautiful bow. One thing I wonder about your warbows is that the tiller seems to have most of the bend centered in the middle with the outer limbs seeming to bend little where as I thought that tiller for these types of bows would be the opposite. Is this because you heat a little reflex into the bow?
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Ryan
If you look at the unbraced profile you'll see that the tips are reflexed a bit but in the full draw they are working slightly. Any more and they will start to take some set and that's not so good when the bows are heavy
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Thanks Marc
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Really nice looking bow. I couldn't pull that to full draw either. Heck I'm over bowed at sixty pounds.
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Very nice bow!
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Nice tiller....
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Thanks guys
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Nice looking Warbow! I am with you when it getsdown to making a bow elm is elm to me! I also wish I could pull 120lbs. maybe I can I never had a bow other than in the tillering stage Ive had a few over a hundred but couldnt pull it back to 28". All in all good looking bow ad tiller!
AA
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Again Marc, beautiful bow. One thing I wonder about your warbows is that the tiller seems to have most of the bend centered in the middle with the outer limbs seeming to bend little where as I thought that tiller for these types of bows would be the opposite. Is this because you heat a little reflex into the bow?
On the contrary, the middle or "handle" section is spot on and showing little or no movement at brace height, but would [probably be felt to give a little as the draw comes through, which is as it should be.
That the outer limbs are also relatively stiff is true, but then again this (according to Ascham) might be typical of a newly tillered mediaeval bow before it is shot in, "whipped" or brought to the string.
If one were to carp about anything the most obvious would be that the horn nocks are not fitted as well as they should be.
That the bow perhaps tends a little towards being "flat" in section, is of no consequence since this is the better format for this wood.
Rod.
Rod,
The horn nocks aren't fitted as well as they could be ??? ??? ??? They look spot on to me. What would you do different, Rod?
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Rod,
ultimately I think that adb was asking to see a set of horn nocks that you have fitted yourself, preferably on an English Longbow that you have made (that's my addition.)
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Rod,
ultimately I think that adb was asking to see a set of horn nocks that you have fitted yourself, preferably on an English Longbow that you have made (that's my addition.)
Yes, that's exactly what I was asking.
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Rod,
For me, it's frustrating to hear armchair opinions from so-called experts who have not done (or contributed examples of) what they are criticizing. I think your comments on Marc's abilities as a bowyer are completely laughable, and a bit arrogant. I commented on what I saw, and I liked what I saw. I have one of Marc's bows. He sent me a floor tillered yew stave, with fitted horn nocks, which look exactly like those on this bow. The yew bow is 90#@32", and I have absolutely no problems bracing the bow using push/pull. Sorry, Rod, I have a difficult time remaining silent about critical "experts" who contribute nothing but hard feelings, and critize something they can't do themselves. Show us some of your work. Show us some of your expertly fitted and appropriate horn nocks. Show us a fine example of a perfectly tillered ELB. I don't believe you've shown us any examples of your work. I'm not being sarcastic, I would genuinely be interested in seeing your work. I think Marc's elm ELB is a fine example, with excellent fitted horn nocks.
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Well I'm certainly no expert but here is what I have got to say...
Marc, I love the bow. You contributions to the world of bow making make you a master in my humble opinion. Your work in this style inspires me and I am hoping to build a heavy elm warbow in the hopefully not too distant future. I have appreciated all your various comments to my posts and consider myself privilaged to have access to the knowledge of a bowyer such as yourself.
Rod, I do not know you but it saddens me a little to see how your comments have progressed in this post. Going from "Nice tiller" to insulting Marc's skill as a bowyer. I'd like to think your first response to someone else's post commending the tiller and saying if you could see any issue with it as being the bow to nock transiton as being misinterpreted and blown out of proportion. Your comments later digressed further from constructive criticism to what I would regard as blatant insult. Perhaps things moved a bit too much from bow discussion to personal attack. Let's try to keep this a little more civil guys as I enjoy too much the fellowship and comradery of these forums to see them go by the wayside.
ADB, I understand what you are saying but be careful how critical you are of other's criticisms. If I'm not mistaken it was you who referred to my first post attempting a warbow with hackberry as resembling more a bromstick without giving any comments of encouragement. I'm new to the realm of bow making and don't claim to be a master of anything. But your comments to me were no better than Rod's here.
Anyway, that's me two cents...again Marc beautiful bow, I hope one day to be able to come close to your skill.
Kip
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Kip,
I looked back to try and find your post, but could not. Could you direct me? Is it under warbows, or bows? If I offened you, my apologies.
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No worries adb, at first it stung a little but I'm trying to work on not taking criticisms so personally. If ya feel like taking a look at it
the links on the bottom of this post but don't feel obliged to by any means. Haha, hopefully I'll be able to post an elm war bow before long that turns out a little less broom handle and a little more medieval weapon ;)
Kip
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Sorry, I don't see your link. ???
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Lol, sorry about that just realized I forgot to paste it after copying it...got a case of the Mondays I suppose...let's try this again
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,17856.msg247714.html#msg247714
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Kip, I went and read the post you were talking about. ADB was being blunt but I don't think mean at all. I believe his appraisel was accurate. I would almost bet his post helped you improve on the next bow. Thats what we do here is give honest appraisels and help each other grow. If a design is way off better to be honest with someone I think. You seem to have a good attitude anyway. Steve
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Thanks Steve. Looking back I'm sure he meant no harm by his comment, it can just be hard to tell how someone is coming across when it's just words on a page, one of the downfalls of written communication. The most innocent remark can come across completely different than the author intended. It's why I usually try to step back and think before posting sometimes. All of your alls comments help me from bow to bow. Haven't had a go at another ELB yet but I'm looking forward to it. That first bromstick really flings an arra' as you all say ;)
Kip
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I don't understand why a frequent reaction to critical comments is to demand that the one making the comment can do it way better himself. How does Rod's proficiency with horn nocks change anything about e.g. the notch at the base of the horn near the upper groove in the picture? Or do I need to fetch my camera and provide a couple of horn nock pictures before I am allowed to ask?
Daniel
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I don't understand why a frequent reaction to critical comments is to demand that the one making the comment can do it way better himself. How does Rod's proficiency with horn nocks change anything about e.g. the notch at the base of the horn near the upper groove in the picture? Or do I need to fetch my camera and provide a couple of horn nock pictures before I am allowed to ask?
Daniel
Probably because that is not a notch
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Hi all,
In my ideal world the following conversation would have taken place:
MSL: Hi, here is my new bow! Any comments?
ROD: Nice tiller, but have you ever considered making the top nock more flush with the bow limb? I know that many archers, including myself, have had trouble stringing heavier bows if the top nock isn't flush with the limb.
MSL: Hi Rod, thank you for your comment, but nope. I havn't thought of this before, but I see your point! Good idea! Do you have any examples to show me?
ROD: Yes several, but unfortunately none that I may take any credit for. Here are some pics...
But I do admit that I find the current thread more exciting...
Cheers,
Ola
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Hi all,
In my ideal world the following conversation would have taken place:
MSL: Hi, here is my new bow! Any comments?
ROD: Nice tiller, but have you ever considered making the top nock more flush with the bow limb? I know that many archers, including myself, have had trouble stringing heavier bows if the top nock isn't flush with the limb.
MSL: Hi Rod, thank you for your comment, but nope. I havn't thought of this before, but I see your point! Good idea! Do you have any examples to show me?
ROD: Yes several, but unfortunately none that I may take any credit for. Here are some pics...
But I do admit that I find the current thread more exciting...
Cheers,
Ola
:)
Rod has never been accused of being tactful.
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"Rod has never been accused of being tactful."
I met Rod at MoJam that year, although I'd "known" him from the internet much longer. Had dinner with him. Enjoyed his company.
I would not judge Rod as being overly tactful. LOL Neither would I judge him to be malicious in intent, or unusually conceded in consideration of his own standing in any area. Similarly, I'd not judge Marc to be overly sensitive to criticism, or particularly subject to the winds and whims of popularity or conformity. These traits I admire in both of you. Not that my opinion matters, other than it's complimentary. ;-)
And I should note that you both served as mentors of a sort to me as I was coming along in the craft, and have achieved some measure of proficieny as a consequence. Which is why I find this so perplexing, and have in the past. I think it's a darn shame ya'll have gotten cross-wise. Been that way for lots of years. Have seen this exchange, or one like it, here before.
Marc, as always I love to see elm wood bend perty like you make it.
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This Thread started out real good, but now it's starting to really look embarrassing.
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Mark, Rod, and EVERONE ELSE,
I learn so much from our family here at PA. I am almost ashamed to see this bickering from the people that I personally admire and lookup to.
You all have been so very patient with my newby questions.
Havin a hard time understanding the feud.
Almost makes me leery about posting my first.
Go back to what y'all do best, that's shaving wood, and GET ALONG...
Ron
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Ron
By all means do post pictures. Not everyone is as critical as Rod
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You have done well to make a 120lb elm bow - I know how difficult it is to get whitewood to withstand heavy draw weights
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Probably because that is not a notch
It looked like one to me in the pictures. I had a small piece of horn chip out when filing once and it looked similar. Nevermind.
In addition to what Alan said, is there a specific reason for choosing the rather short length of 74"?
Daniel
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Ron
By all means do post pictures. Not everyone is as critical as Rod
Marc St Louis
Actually, I'm close to doing the final few fine sandings on my 2nd attempt on a red oak BB. i am really excited, But having some probs with tiller.
I will waite till It's finished then see what kind of responce I get. I can take criticism easily ( tough skin) ;), but don't like being berated. Heck, I laugh at myself all the time. ;D
Thanks for answering.
Ron
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Probably because that is not a notch
It looked like one to me in the pictures. I had a small piece of horn chip out when filing once and it looked similar. Nevermind.
In addition to what Alan said, is there a specific reason for choosing the rather short length of 74"?
Daniel
I wouldn't have put a horn nock on with a chip in it.
That 74" is a N to N measurement, the overall length is 76". Elm is strong in tension, it can take being made shorter
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Ron
By all means do post pictures. Not everyone is as critical as Rod
Marc St Louis
Actually, I'm close to doing the final few fine sandings on my 2nd attempt on a red oak BB. i am really excited, But having some probs with tiller.
I will waite till It's finished then see what kind of responce I get. I can take criticism easily ( tough skin) ;), but don't like being berated. Heck, I laugh at myself all the time. ;D
Thanks for answering.
Ron
Ron
You are no different than most everyone else, myself included
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I post about I like someones bow to reading a soap opera Im starting to feel like there are getting too many opinions on this forum and not enough apraisals. To each their own I guess. Have a good day otherwise.
AA