Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Parnell on June 03, 2010, 11:05:49 am
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Curious on opinions why D-bows usually aren't contenders for BOM. I've been seeing more of 'em lately and some darn fine ones at that...
Obviously it's the finish work that gets the most votes, I figure. Maybe most D bows are made for pure function?
Anyone got a good example of a D bow that has won?
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,10684.0.html
Gordon's hazelnut D-bow, both tiller and finish were superb.
I'm not surprised the finish is what makes a winning bow. The finish is what makes a bow pretty, and we all like pretty bows don't we?
if you want to make a winner, go for an osage recurve and make it the best bow you will ever make. Thats the most common winner in the self bow section.
Jorad
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Curious on opinions why D-bows usually aren't contenders for BOM. I've been seeing more of 'em lately and some darn fine ones at that...
Obviously it's the finish work that gets the most votes, I figure. Maybe most D bows are made for pure function?
Anyone got a good example of a D bow that has won?
I think that most of the time, people won't put a really nice finish on a dog, so I think great bow and awesome finish work go hand in hand. You can't polish a turd.. :) I have seen D bows win before. :)
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There have been many different types of bows win BOM, Hackberry,Yew,Dogwood,hazelwood just to name a few,and yes sometimes Osage,and sometimes character and sometimes recurve but I have seen no real pattern. :)I do know one thing there are some mighty fine bows being turned out from this bunch. :) :)
Pappy
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I think a lot of it depends on what you think of as an "awesome finish". If you want to win, wrap your bow in snake skin or fish skin or frog scrotums! Frankly I think that that hides the beauty of the wood. On the other hand, I don't care for deep glossy finishes that look like glass.
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Ken,
I do not believe that I would vote for a frog scrotum backed bow!!!
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Seems D bows are too simple, not enough steps in the building or finishing process and they need to have tip overlays and laminated risers, look at the bows that have won past bom and view voting results when available, this is what my opinion is based on, buts its just my opinion and you know what they say about that. And staging a photo shoot doesnt hurt either.
O.k. Got my kevlar on , bring on the flack
Jeff
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Wow I'm getting DeJaVu.
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No flack here,seems some don't like beauty, or appreciate the time and skill it take to do that kind of work ,but I guess more do than don't,that is why more of them win. :)There have been some very plan bows win in the past,It usually has to be out a different kind of wood that no one has seen much of,or challengeing piece of wood but it happens. :) jamie has won several with stone tool bows in the past,not lately but that is mainly because he don't post many. :) Its all good. :)
Pappy
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Yeah - wasn't trying to start up a big long thread. Just curious about what people were currently thinking, after seeing some nice, character D bows as of late.
I wonder how an authentic ALL primitive - stone tool made, natural string, real deal no shortcuts bow would fare...
I've seen a couple in real life, osage and locust Cherokee hunting bows made with stone tools all the way through, diamond nocks and a deer hide string, very thick and I've never seen another like it. Talk about authentic.
No fancy finish or frills but the work involved, whew!, that'd have to be a contender, right!?
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Would be for me,I always conceder the work and skill involved in the bow then throw in the time and skill it took to finish,skins,painted and such. And of course it has to be tillered nice for the wood they are working with.They need to shoot nice but of course there is no way to know that except what they say and I trust most on this site to tell the truth about that. :)
Pappy
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I try to make my bows authentic and primitive. Try to use the same stuff as the old timers.....turns out a good bow for hunting and they are interesting to me as well (so I can get a feel for what some fella might have been after). If ya think that most people dont have the "skill" to spread true-oil, sparvarnish, or some type of urethane, glue on pistol grips, snake skin or some other sort of thing I believe you are mistaken. It's just as hard (if not harder) to make a true self bow....the time it takes to add the bells & whistles dont make a bowyer.
Fact is most ancient bowyers wouldn't look at a stick that you folks call character wood, they'd try to make the best bow they could from the best material they could gather, aint callin names but that is just how it was. Then ya get to how it is.....most of the guys in BOM winners circle are going for the store-bought look, and crow-shinny and man that's OK. All ya got to do is not get wrapped up in the whole BOM deal and make what ya like. I wont enter it because what I make is not what that contest is all about, that's all anybody has to do......just don't enter if them types of bows don't trip your trigger. Different strokes, don't ya know.
I'm with Jeff (n2huntin) go back and look at the archives and vote posts..... I did that all the way back to 2007 (as far back as I could find) and if ya cant see a pattern you must not be looking for one. As for polishin turds....I'll keep killin my food with my genuine unpolished turd and thank ya very much. Course, I'm just an old Michigan redneck.
half-eye
Rich Rousseau
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Seems D bows are too simple, not enough steps in the building or finishing process and they need to have tip overlays and laminated risers, look at the bows that have won past bom and view voting results when available, this is what my opinion is based on, buts its just my opinion and you know what they say about that. And staging a photo shoot doesnt hurt either.
O.k. Got my kevlar on , bring on the flack
Jeff
I really don't see anything wrong with "a photo shoot" of your bow. The bows I make I work hard on.. lots of blood sweat and tears go into this craft (as we all know) So why not take a bunch of photos of your work to proudly display your hard work and achievement? I personally take around 30 or 40 pics of each bow I make and narrow it down to around 10 or 11 "best" pics to show when I post. I wish more people would do the same, whether it is a D bow crafted with all stone tools or a 3 or 4 wood laminated bamboo backed recurve with multi wood tip overlays. It is hard to see details with low-light camera-phone pics and I think details of your bow help to inspire, help, and give others different ideas to add to their bow making skills. That's what I love about coming to this site is to see all the pictures people take of their work, it is a great way to get new ideas. Sorry for the rant, :)
... and Rich, your bows arent turds they are awesome weapons that defy the laws of physics my friend. :)
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Thanks for keeping posts on the "up and up" guys, I wasn't trying to stir the pot...
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Well said half eye, I like to make both :)
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For me, the finish work is a completely separate process than making a bow. I enjoy both sides of it. Our ancestors, to some extent, would have decorated their war weapons. I'm sure this was also done with hunting weapons too ???
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Josh, regarding really great photos, it is VERY hard to take good photos of bows, at least for me. Gordon is one of the best about that, and takes amazing shots. I wish he would do a photo-along. Of course, the greatest shot of a bow won't win you the prize alone.
I recall an oceanspray longbow that won, and other long bows that have won over the years, including a yew warbow by the same guy (Josh, I believe his name was, he is long-gone from the site). The snakes skins do well, but all kinds of bows have won, such as a fairly recent asiatic composite bow by a bowyer in Wales.
Rich, I am waiting for you to post a turd. Hasn't happened yet. :)
Dane
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That is interesting, Gordon's '08 winner was in fact a D bow. That was right when I started out with all this business. Never realized that was a D and at the time didn't much know the difference anyhow.
On a side note, I once saw a monkey polishing a turd at the zoo. I do believe he was a fixin to chuck it at me so I didn't stick around to find out!!! ;D
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What I said about "cant polish a turd" might have been misconstrued... All I meant by that is no one is going to put two weeks worth of finish work into a bow that is less than well-constructed and is going to break in a week..... not that every bow without the detail work is a crappy bow... If anyone took it that way I apologise from the bottom of my heart and I am really sorry to offend. :)
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I have seen many, many simple D-bows win BOM over the years. The one I voted for this month was a D-bow, for that matter. And I've seen completely stone-tool made primitive string bows win, also.
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I personally believe a simple D-bow can be as beautiful as a fully decorated recurve, a character crab apple or osage can be as beautifull as a slim R/D boo-backed Ipê, may the finish be a simple waxing or many coats of shellack. As long as whatever bow has a great arc and a nice appearance overall it'll have a fair chance to be a front-runner.
Good clear Photos will help.
JMO.
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I have a few thoughts. First, I think D bows might not fare as well because we all have different ideas of propper tiller. Some like more bend in the handle and some don't. I vote for D bows on occasion, but the tiller has to be right before any bow gets my vote.
As for photo shoots.... I think a bow needs to be shown properly. All the gussied up photos in the world wont mean anything if you cant see the tiller. I like a shot with a background that allows you to see the bow clearly so you can see the tiller. It can be the prettiest stick in the world, but without good tiller it is just a bent stick.
I wont vote for a snake backed bow unless the snake skin compliments the bow style.
As for Osage recurves winning, I think if you count the well made recurves you will find that a higher percentage are Osage simply because Osage bends so well. If there are more Osage bows there will likely be more Osage winners. :-*
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I think that well made Osage recurve bows often take BOM because it is hard to resist the combination of sexy curves and yellow wood. And if you add a nice skin job, handle wrap and tips, it's darn right impossible to ignore. But that's okay because BOM is basically about what appeals to you at a visceral level.
Regarding pictures. A good photo cannot not make your bow look better than it really is. But a bad photo can certainly make your bow look worse. You put your heart and soul into a bow so why not give it the justice it deserves with a decent photo.
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One of my first primitive bows was a real short D Bow made by Marvin Gerrish. He gave it to me after it wom BOM.
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One last question.
Do turd bows require R or R/D?
Would steaming be required?
And lastly, is the stance important? ;D ;D ;D
Sorry guys, I couldn't resist. ::)
I was laughing sooo hard in parts of this thread that I believe I just made my first T-BOW ;D
Ron
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Personally, I like the D bow style best. I like the simple clean look of a properly tillered D bow that bends in the handle, especially if they are short. I rarely vote for stiff handled bows. As for BOM, make what you like and if it wins great, and if it doesn't you have a great bow that you like. ;)
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One last question.
Do turd bows require R or R/D?
Would steaming be required?
And lastly, is the stance important? ;D ;D ;D
Sorry guys, I couldn't resist. ::)
I was laughing sooo hard in parts of this thread that I believe I just made my first T-BOW ;D
Ron
I like decorating my T-bows with a corn motif. I hate when the bows run away, though. And I might as well say, when you take one out hunting on a cold morning, they steam so bad, they scare away the game.
Dane
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As for BOM, make what you like and if it wins great, and if it doesn't you have a great bow that you like. ;)
VERY WELL SAID, Rick. Truly words to tiller by. :)
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Lets not forget just because a D bow is simple as it can get this is supposed to be about primitive archery. I feel as long as the builder of the bow puts his heart into regardless of how it looks, should get recognized for his work. In my opinion a lot of bows ..(including my own)-- tend to look more modern than primitive. I would like to see a page set up for primitives (made with Aboriginal tools and materials, that includes hand cutting with a stone and splitting) a Neo primitive --mostly primitive but used some modern... Maybe thats too much and we could do it all on one page. But I do think having an all ABO Bow page would be kinda cool. I think it would spark a whole new movement here on PA and it will be fun for all of us to see each persons progression. Well dont know how I got this from talking about Dbows but this is only my opinion and thought. Thank you!
Russ
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Regarding pictures. A good photo cannot not make your bow look better than it really is. But a bad photo can certainly make your bow look worse. You put your heart and soul into a bow so why not give it the justice it deserves with a decent photo.
Absolutely.
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... I would like to see a page set up for primitives (made with Aboriginal tools and materials, that includes hand cutting with a stone and splitting) a Neo primitive --mostly primitive but used some modern... Maybe thats too much and we could do it all on one page. ...
If the BOM list would somehow point out it's a primitive bow made all the way with primitive tools, I'm sure that bow will find its audience along the gang!
But still we can only judge that bow by pictures...
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What is really primitive?? The primitive mindset was firstly practical and only secondly concerned with looks, Primitive people used what was at hand to get the job done, they didnt imitate other peoples bows from the past, purely for their looks and style!!!. So are we on about primitive replicas, or bows made with a primitive attitude?? Judging anything by it looks is a bit shallow! Just stirring the pot a bit ???
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... The primitive mindset was firstly practical and only secondly concerned with looks, ...
Well, I disagree entirely on that: decoration seems to be a major thing on Native American bows as much as on many African and Asian bows (and other weapons) on stoneage level; I'm sure it was not different in ancient Europe (f.e. the Meare Heath bow had some rawhide wrapped in a pattern, that most likely had no function). Decoration (such as cave art) had to do with medicine, and therefore decoration was of outstanding importance, survival situation excluded.
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Wow, this turned into a discussion! I'd hope that if anyone went far enough to go the no power/stone tools route that they'd give us all a build along. I love those build-a-longs when it comes to seeing stuff like that. I think that if I saw the progression of a bow that someone maybe really was pushing for in the contest, it'd be more persuasive.
As much as I would enjoy winning BOM my primary enjoyment with bow-making is getting my friends to shoot what I've made and giving them as gifts. It always amazes me how most people are in touch with archery even if they don't know it. I mean shoot, my friends wive's and girlfriends even get swept up in it and want to shoot when they see "the guys" doing it in the back. I find that over a cold pop or two that it sparks a lot of conversation about food and hunting and many people who didn't understand the value of hunting begin to get a better appreciation of it's true importance. The ladies tend to get it more as well when they see that someone bothering to put in the work involved, knapped heads are the cake topper. But I digress.
I'm just glad to see various opinions on what people look for. It is interesting to check out since we're not all living in the same town meeting up to shoot on a field and shootin the breeze around a real campfire frequently. Sometimes I kinda wondered if there was a bit of, "oh let me see if I can pick the one that will win and I'll vote for that one" mentality. But it doesn't appear that way, and that's good.
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What is really primitive?? The primitive mindset was firstly practical and only secondly concerned with looks, Primitive people used what was at hand to get the job done, they didnt imitate other peoples bows from the past, purely for their looks and style!!!. So are we on about primitive replicas, or bows made with a primitive attitude?? Judging anything by it looks is a bit shallow! Just stirring the pot a bit ???
Dragonman, this comes up time and again, but is such an interesting topic and thought exercise.
My opinion is that there is no way to really become “primitive”. We are creatures of our educations, religions and philosophies, our cultures, our technologies, our relationships, and our societies. We are born into and trapped in the here and now and live in the modern world, and the education and knowledge and customs we have acquired will always be an intrinsic part of our makeup.
You can strive to get in touch with a Neolithic or medieval or Viking or 19th century ancestor, but can never really succeed. Even if you make a bow with stone tools and all accurate materials, you travel to the tree cutting site in modern clothing in your car or on foot in your modern boots using modern roads, then going home to your electrically-lit shop in your modern home, breathing polluted air, listening to traffic pass on a distant road, and so on. Overhead is a small aircraft, and then your cell phone rings, ruining the mood entirely.
I do think that you can get in touch a wee tiny bit with a bowyer of any period, as we essentially do the same thing as a bow maker of 10,000 years ago. The same skills and craftsmanship are used, and the same goal is there, to tiller and craft a wooden spring to fling little feathered sticks at a target. Every bow we make – Holmegaard, ELB, AFB, Asiatic composite, Viking yew, Native American short bow– is state of the art for their time and place and requirements. The only true primitive bow is the very first one, which is lost in time.
I like thinking of making a bow as invoking the ghosts of our past. They swirl around us always, and making a bow brings these revenants closer to our conscious existence, but the phantoms are always out of reach.
Dane
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I agree Dane, I was just teasing,(although there is some truth in it), I think using natural materials is a good basic rule, which is what we are all doing!!!. I do think though Medicine wheel, that decoration would always come second to function,, who would bother seriously decorating a duff bow , in any age??
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I agree Dane, I was just teasing,(although there is some truth in it), I think using natural materials is a good basic rule, which is what we are all doing!!!. I do think though Medicine wheel, that decoration would always come second to function,, who would bother seriously decorating a duff bow , in any age??
My point EXACTLY!!!!! :) :) :) :) :) ;D O:) O:)
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who would bother seriously decorating a duff bow , in any age??
There appears to be quite a few bows out there that were made almost entirely for appearance. Many "medicine bows" were very decorated and it isn't positive if they were even functional.
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All I can add to this thread is as follows:
I have seen many elaborately decorative bows on this site as well as many character bows. The one common denominator to me,at least, is that their is an inheritant beauty to them all.
Multiple layers of fancy wood can be quite an eye catcher, but certainly it does not put to shame the natural beauty of a character bow (especially a twisted, knotty, stubborn stave).
The caliber of bowery skills on this site is awe inspiring, and I constantly find myself battling with which type I prefer. In the end, I have to conclude that, be it a fancy osage recurve, or a finely tillered D bow, a self bow or a laminated bow,( as long as they are good shooters) They all deserve a warm place in the spot light.
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... I do think though Medicine wheel, that decoration would always come second to function,, who would bother seriously decorating a duff bow , in any age??
Well, yes, most likely, but as Justin S points out, not even that is for sure.
On top of that I've seen pictures of many NA war axes, war clubs, spears and even bows so heavily decorated, that it must have negatively influenced functionality, yet they were made that way.
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Nice feedback on this post , in the current issue of PA though the winning bow is a premade blank that was skinned and tillered, not sure how you judge that. Beautiful bow no doubt but do we actually vote for the bow or the bowyer in this case.I have yet to see a bow I did not like on here and enjoy the sharing of ideas and people willing to share hard learned skills. As for the pictures a plain shot on the tiller tree should show you all you need to know but pretty backgrounds are eye candy and detail work is worth bragging about. With that said not many bows here appear to be primitive nor are the skills required to produce such fine weapons, but that may be a matter of opinion and very subjective. It doesn't really matter to me , I am more of a self made bowyer/hunter, kinda do it yourself type, not store bought.
We could argue further over definitions , self bow, backed bow , composite etc. but that may need to be on another post. I enjoy them all and no ones opinion is the right one, just you like what you like and thats how you vote.
Jeff
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... I do think though Medicine wheel, that decoration would always come second to function,, who would bother seriously decorating a duff bow , in any age??
Well, yes, most likely, but as Justin S points out, not even that is for sure.
On top of that I've seen pictures of many NA war axes, war clubs, spears and even bows so heavily decorated, that it must have negatively influenced functionality, yet they were made that way.
I agree
Ron
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Grave goods bows, too, sometimes appear to be non functional. A bunch of bows buried with Tut were highly gilded, and one pull would have ruined the finish, so it is doubtful they were intended to be shot in this world. I seem to recall some grave bows and good being destroyed so they couldnt turn on the dead guy in the afterlife, too.
Dane
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Whatever happened to just making bows and arrows and having FUN ?? I make bows for myself , not to please anybody else... Sometimes I even use materials that are NOT considered "primitive" >:D Who Cares ??? I don't !!!
Which leads to another question ... ::) I see a lot of D bows here tillered real "bendy" in the handle ... I always made mine more arc of a circle... have I missed something ???
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in the current issue of PA though the winning bow is a pre-made blank that was skinned and tillered,...
I wondered about that too. If you buy something essentially finished and just decorate it, is that really bow making?
But then I realized that there are only 30 or 40 people voting for BOM, and they're probably pretty much the same 30-40 people each month, so the bows that are chosen are really just the choices of a handful of friends about each others' bows. Or that's the way it seems from my perspective...
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I realized that there are only 30 or 40 people voting for BOM, and they're probably pretty much the same 30-40 people each month, so the bows that are chosen are really just the choices of a handful of friends about each others' bows.
;).......... ;D
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Well, here we go. :)
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Let's play nice, now. I think some people take the contest a bit too seriously-to me, it's just a fun way to share our work with each other. I've won it before and it didn't change my life in any way or make beautiful women throw themselves at me en masse or cause dumptruck loads of hundred-dollar bills to show up in my driveway. Me just like to look at the purty bows. :) There have been some good thoughts covered. One thing I agree with is a crappy photo can shoot you down in a hurry. If I can't see the tiller or any details of the bow, I don't look at it much no matter how nice it may be. If your bow was worth spending a hundred hours of work to make, it deserves more than thirty seconds spent shooting a random pic against a cluttered background in the dark with a cellphone. Different things catch my eye, too. I love me a snakeskin-backed osage recurve as good as the next guy, but I've seen so many of them that they don't catch my eye as quickly as a well-made bow from some species of wood that isn't commonly used, or a different style of bow, a well-made replica, etc. A nice bow made from a difficult, knotty, twisty, piece of wood that I know involved weeks of work to get finished impresses me more than a three-hour bow bandsawed from a board with rasp marks still on it. One thing that often gets my vote, too, is a good-quality bow made by someone who hasn't made hundreds of bows. We all know people who can turn out nice'uns by the truckload without breaking a sweat, but it's an accomplishment worth rewarding for a person who is newer to the game to make a bow that gets your attention. The type of bow isn't as important to me as the overall level of craftsmanship, and how well it is designed and tillered for the type of bow it is. Finish work does help, it shows that you think enough of the weapon you just created to take the time and effort to make it all it can be. If you don't care enough about it to at least spend the effort to sand the tool marks out, I'm probably not going to put the effort into voting for it. Crude and primitive are two totally different things.
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in my humble opinion
BOM is just a beauty/popularity contest.it seems that there is a constant in the contest.
mot "D" bows look more primitive than bows that have pistol style grips,fancy tips and recurves,snake skins etc.
if certain individuals make a bow(you know it will be pretty) and they are almost guaranteed to win
why is this,well like i said.they make pretty bows,which in turns makes them popular so they get votes
pretty bows dont always corolate to good shooters
that why i dont enter bows(when i make one)
i like bows that are functional,that doesnt always corolate to pretty.
even though i dont post a lot of pics(anymore) i still make bows,just finished one,got three more in the works
most times if i post a pic,its a bow i am working on and have a question.
i dont feel a need to post lots and lots of finished pics.i have never been much of a people person or one that realy cares what others think
as long as i like my bow,and the person i am giving it to likes it,thats all that matters.not to mention i dont have access to snake skins and antlers for overlays.
so tha fanciest part of mine is usually the tongue oil finish.
as far as polishing a turd goes.
well i think the ROLLING STONES said it best
"you cant polish a turd,but you can varnish it"
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Man I'm lovin this. Ya say the contest is just for fun but man there's a lot of hackles up in the air. I don't even know who dreamed up the categories cause they sure aint the same as anybody else's. This stupid old man allways thought there were self bows, backed bows, and "compound" bows (what you guys call laminates). Never knew if ya back a bow with sinew, skins, silk, canvas and all the rest it's a self bow.....but god forbid ya back it with wood and all of a sudden yer into laminate territory..........I think it's funny as all get out.
Supposedly there is near 3,400 members on this site so how come ya never hear nothin from most of 'em? Just a few people ( me amoungst 'em) If everything is as friendly as everybody keeps saying how come most of the new guys are askin for help with their hat in thier hand, or not at all? Thought the site was supposed to be for sharing information with like minded people, not how far up the flagpole ya can pee. That's exactly what any "contest" is about, otherwise it wouldn't be called a contest. When ya win something over 20 or so people all that gets you is being a big fish in a real little pond.
I really hope everybody keeps speakin up, got to run, turds need polishing dont ya know.
Rich Rousseau
half eye
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Hey Rich; did you catch Mythbusters awhile back when they proved you actually can polish turds (and did so on camera) using the ancient and primitive Japanese techniques of Dorodongo??
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I'll have to check that out....might help me save some time.
Rich
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Wow.
But anyway, I like BOM. Nice seeing all the work put into the bows being displayed. Don't really care who or what wins. And personally I seem to be drawn to the shorty bows, so I guess not everyone is voting for the snakeskin osages... :) ;D ;)
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I may as well weigh in here. I personally love the contest. If nothing else, compiling each month's entries into a thread makes for easy browsing. It's an amazing resource for anybody looking to
steal I mean learn and apply some great ideas.
It's also a good motivation to improve. If there wasn't some competition of some sort in all aspects of life, we'd be North Koreans. No possibility of reward or recognition, no incentive to work.
I tend to vote for pretty or unique bows, with the exception that I'm a little sick of "Osage, can you see?" Snakeskin has already become for me, like Sailordad's tag line "the Harley Davidson; THE thing to ride". It's like tattoos. When everybody thinks it's cool is when its coolness is long past gone. Sorry, I'm probably pushing a few peoples' buttons right now... O:) Snake looks cool, but unless there's something else to it, it won't get my vote. I'm also slightly biased against The Usual Winners. I'll vote for them, I have immense respect for the quality and consistensy of their work, but I tend to look for reasons to vote for somebody else.
If it's not functional and hunting weight, it won't get my vote, usually.
I really, really, REALLY want to win the contest. I like hats; free hats are best; and trophy hats are best of all. And that's why I wish everybody would participate. When certain makers of outstanding bows refuse to enter, it cheats the monthly winner out of some of his well-earned respect. Because who's to say one of those unentered bows wouldn't have gotten more votes? It's not a real win if the competition forfeits.
Above all, the competition IS fun. This whole site is about fun, and the contest is our monthly recognition of the fun, our Oscar ceremony, our Stanley Cup.
In closing, please vote for my D bow when it shows up. My forehead is getting tragically sunburned. ;D
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I will always vote for your bows, Zen, as buddies always take care of each other :) It's rigged, you know.
Rich, you know that humans are like that. How many organizations and clubs have you belonged to that only 10% of the members do the work, and 90% are never around? At my gun club, 30 maybe show up regularly to general membership meeting, and the other 200 you only see around if you are lucky, and asking them to help with work parties or whatever is a fantasy. To expect all the members of this site to actually vote is like hoping everyone will vote for the mayor or local dog catcher.
Dane
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Great point Dane. What are the figures for presidential and congressional votes, something like only 40% of the pop. votes, and shoot that's something that actually matters.
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Well I think I did manage to stirs things up a bit there >:D, I dont like being too nice ,it aint honest >:(. Better to be honest and speak your truth, we should all be able to handle a few un-nice words from time to time. I dont actually have any bow preferences, I appreciate craftsmanship, in any style and any materials, although I do prefer natural materials, skill and patience are where it is at for me. As for competition I believe it brings out the best in people, if it isnt taken TOO serious. I also beleive more people should vote for my bows next time, I was well dissapointed this month, ??? ::)
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DragonMan, you got 8 votes this month, that aint bad ;D If you'd have gotten the wood near the fades bending more on that BBI and I didn't have a bow in the race, I might have voted for it :) Josh had a deserved win. His skill has jumped like crazy in the last 6 months. It's probably because of that fancy new bandsaw his wife bought him ;) ;D ;)
I think my improvements are partially a result of the BOM contests. It's a measureing stick for me. I'm happy if I have one more vote than my last bow.
I don't know why Half Eye is so bitter, I mean he did win BOM recently. He doubts the friendly sharing atmosphere here but yet after a VERY short time of being part of the PA community he's published articles in the MAG, won BOM, and turned peoples worlds upside down as to the integrity of the back of quarter sawn wood.
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I was only joking about the dissapointment, but thanks NTD. I actually voted for Josh too O:) Whose bow was the fastest though?, theres the real test. >:D
Half Eye is real helpfull if you ask him stuff!!
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Man I'm lovin this. Ya say the contest is just for fun but man there's a lot of hackles up in the air. I don't even know who dreamed up the categories cause they sure aint the same as anybody else's. This stupid old man allways thought there were self bows, backed bows, and "compound" bows (what you guys call laminates). Never knew if ya back a bow with sinew, skins, silk, canvas and all the rest it's a self bow.....but god forbid ya back it with wood and all of a sudden yer into laminate territory..........I think it's funny as all get out.
Rich Rousseau
half eye
I agree with you that a vegetable fiber, rawhide or sinew backed bow is not a self bow. But only a few of those bows are made a month, if at all. Sure it'd be nice to have a category for true primitive bows made with stone, and for non wood backed bows but we'd be votng on only a couple bows in those categores. It wouldn't be much fun to me to pick one bow out of two in a contest.
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Hey NTD, next time ya fire a shot across the bow, maybe ya ought to check the facts. I have not won BOM, hell dont even enter. Think that might have been ONE EYE. I really am not bitter about nothin....but just because I build "board bows" (another PA term coinage) doesn't mean I don't work just as hard to get my wood, work my wood or finish my wood as any of the stave guys. I've had my shots round here and just bit my tounge, hell they even took your buddy Josh's zinger off one of my posts before I could say anything, but I've got a tough hide. Me and my turd board bows are gonna keep going along....and if I never peel a stave I ain't gonna be missin nothing. If ya read my posts here all I said was if the bom thing don't trip your trigger then don't enter, why does that get ya so upset?
What does writing articles for PA Mag got to do with this BOM thing anyway? I've been reminded by yall that the this forum and the mag aint the same thing, so I dont know what that has to do with anything.
Rich Rousseau
half eye
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My apologies. I made a mistake about you having won BOM. I could have sworn one of your Molles won. I voted for it anyway. You say you don't submit, but those early months you had nearly half the entries there Rich.
I'm bowing out with my aplogies about saying you'd won.
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First off thanks Nate and Dragonman for the compliments on my work! :)
Second, Halfeye the only thing I remember saying about any of your work that you took the wrong way was when you had like 7 bows made that month in the bow of the month contest and I commented on how many you had and I wished i was able to make that many bows in a month and you got mad about that. I was merely saying i wish i was skilled enough to turn out so many bows in a month and you took it completely the wrong way. I posted an apology on the message board as well as sending you a personal apology via personal message which obviously still wasn't good enough. I have never said anything negative about ANY of your work in fact I ADMIRE all of the bows you have posted, I have never posted anything negative about your work.. I especially like the carved dragon nock bow you posted earlier in the year. So whatever problem you have with me honestly I have tried to make it right-even though I feel I really haven't done or said anything wrong (which I have already tried to explain to you) I just wish we could put it behind us and again I am sorry that you took that comment 6 months ago the wrong way I will apologize a million more times if it will make a difference. So can we please put that one little misunderstanding behind us yet?
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Buddy or not Josh, I'm gonna whoop your butt in BOM one of these days >:D ;D
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Nate you certianly have the talent to win I honestly don't know why you haven't yet.... I am shocked so many people like my work... Everything I know about bow making I gleaned from the Bowyer's Bible series and this very website and magazine. :)
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Hah, every month that I've thought I had a chance a better bow comes along :) I have no problem being beaten by a better bow ;D And that's exactly how I've learned too, TBB's and PA. Someday I'll get to the classic and be able to have some hands on training from some real pros.
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Nate...all you have to do is get to Stinnett Texas....just follow I-40 from Arizona...and I will take you the rest of the way....... :o
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Sounds like a plan to me Mike. I might just have to take you up on that. ;D
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I am serious...if it would hwlp you to get there next Spring...just plan on it...and we can set it up....you will not regret the time spent...it's the Daytona Bike Week of Primitive Archery
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I am serious...if it would hwlp you to get there next Spring...just plan on it...and we can set it up....you will not regret the time spent...it's the Daytona Bike Week of Primitive Archery
Hey Nate I would seriously take Mike up on his offer next year if I were you, you won't have a better time and learn more stuff or meet better people anywhere else on earth! Just be prepared to travel roughly the speed of light in a Shelby Mustang for 12 hours straight with no bathroom breaks... Heck he even gets a refueling plane to match his speed and refuels without stopping... :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Dang Josh....you were paying attention...when I was running my Head......... >:D
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Hell of a crew here I tell ya. I appreciate it Mike and I will definitely get with you when the time comes and iron out the details. Shoot I think just the ride in the Shelby would be worth the drive to Texas ;D
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MAN IS THIS BOUT OVER!
I am here to learn. It will be a long time before any of my attempts Will even be considered for BOM.
PLEASE keep submitting pics. That is how I learn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Every pic gives me a new idea...I don't give a frick what style it is. Stop the BS!!!!
Funny at first....Not any more............I made my jokes........They are over...
I don't think I will ever post a bow here with my family at PA without listing as "NOT FOR BOM..."
Give me the pics and inspiration!!!
May GOD Bless you all...
And that I truly mean!
Ron...A real countryboy
Now This is primitive.
What has changed, do you get this...primitive and modern tools...
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What's up with this thread? This thing some of us call primitive archery is my hobby. I love it. I also love this site and have been on here just about since its inception. LOL. I've got pants older than some of you. I don't fit in them but I have them. I also love helping people make bows either personally or on the web. This site is about sharing information so let's share because if we don't, in a few years there will be nothing left to share. If you don't want to enter BOM then don't. It's very simple put in ( ) "not for BOM". New bowyers, if you want to learn how to tiller well, get on the BOM part of this site and look at the tillers of the winners and when you go to a shoot step back and look at the tillers of bows fg or not. Finally, if I don't like a TV channel I change it provided my wife lets me. :) Jawge
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i stated earlier that i dont and wont enter BOM
thats a personal thing like i said,to me it appears to be a beauty/friendship contest.
i am way way to competitve to want to enter the contest.
wheni get into a competition i like to WIN.i do my best at every contest(that i enter) to make it happen.
i think to get away from being a beuaty/friendship contest the bows should be shot to be judged(not that i would have a better chance).
but that would be the true judgement of what bow was the best for that month.
i dont enter BOM because i dont want to be competitive with my hobby.
i do love looking at alll the pics every month though.,and even vote when there is a bow that i feel is worth voting for.
you guys make some very nice looking bows.mine are never very pretty,never have skins and tip overlays etc.
hell mine rarely even get a leather handle.
but they shoot hard,fast and sometimes even accurately ;D ;)
so no more arguing please,the more this argument drags out.
the better chance that the powers that be would consider getting rid of the BOM just to put an end to the bickering.
if you enter BOM,great
if you dont,thats great too.
the important thing is to let the ones enter that want to,the ones that done enter well thats our choice.
but i dont think its fair to either side of this discussion to get down on the other side for their choices.
like i said
this is my hobby
i dont do it to be competitive,i do it to have fun and relax and put a smile on some poor suckers face when they walk out of my yard
with a stick in their hands and points in their pockets
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Halfeye, if you're miffed over my "three-hour bow sawed out of a board with rasp marks still on it" comment, that definitely wasn't aimed at you. Don't take a comment out of context and assume that it is a generality. You, sir, are a craftsman. Every bow I have seen you post so far has been impressive. You yourself are one of the people I am referring to who takes the time and has the pride to make each bow as good as it can be made. Well-made replicas of Native American bows are probably my favorite style out of all of them, and you make nice'uns. If your bows were entered, I'm sure you would get my vote sooner or later, because you make quality bows that are also plesing to the eye. Pretty is nice, but a pretty bow with a bad tiller is less of a bow than an ugly, functional one. I don't understand your comment about people on here not helping people out or answering questions, either. That is directly the opposite of what I have seen over the many years I have been here. I have had the opportunity to see many newcomers arrive here with questions, and years later, they are now the "old timers" who are answering questions. I know many of the people on this board personally, and I can honestly say that I have never met a more friendly, helpful group of people anywhere. The only way you will find people here to be unfriendly is if you arrive with a hostile, argumentative attitude. And for people who complain that there are the same people entering and winning every month, then won't enter their bows out of some misplaced martyr complex, well, duh-that's how you wind up with the same people's bows every month-you can't see and vote for what isn't entered. What people assume isn't always what happens. I voted for two people this month that I don't know at all, even though some of my "buddies" have bows posted. I vote for what catches my eye and seems to be a functional, quality bow regardless of who made it. Some months I don't even vote-I just don't see it as a big deal. The main asset of the BOM contest to me is that we get to look at everyone's work and learn how to build better bows.
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Hillbilly,
You are a moderator, so it presupposes a temperate personality. I said it before, I'm not PO'd about anything, and feel free to politely chide folks (including me) about entering the BOM, but that certainly should be a personal choice of the guy who made the bow. I argued with old bow a lot about not putting mine in when I first got here....and they got put in anyway,( because I didn't know you could put the not for bom thing in the title) I still hear about all those bows to this day. Then when I started putting not for bom in the titles I got cracks about that as well (all-be-it that one "dissapeared" before I got a chance to say anything). This why I don't think much about the whole deal. Damned if ya do & damned if ya don't.
The only difference between bow of the month and a regular post is the magazine appearance. The pictures are the same, the stats are the same, and the explanation is the same. So I believe that the bom is designed as a competition deal only because the "learning experience" is in the original post allready. By the way, I've willingly helped as many people on this site as have asked for it, to pass on any info I might have had that would help.
If ya check on what I've written all I said was if a guy wants in (BOM) fine, if he doesn't then that ought to be fine as well. My heartburn with the whole bom is amply demonstrated by all the hell-a-baloo that's going on. A "contest" is not required to pass along knowlege and information. Not everybody needs to compete, I like my bows for what they are and the fun of making them, and do not need a competition to validate it for me, the fun comes from sharing the info and photos in a regular old post, that members can look at (or not) as they see fit. Having said that I say more power to anybody that does like competition and wants in and good for you, but please consider that not everyone likes the same things.
Rich Rousseau
half eye
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Well-said, and I agree with most of what you say. Nobody has to enter BOM (I often don't post my own stuff either,) nor should they have to if they don't want to. I was only commenting that sometimes people complain about the limited selection of bows in the contest, then don't enter their own. The only way there can be a wider selection is for more people to enter.
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Whats all the fuss about BOM, iit isnt so serious is it,???, there isnt even a prize :(, whats the problem if your bow get put into the BOM and we all vote whose is best, its only pictures on a screen, you cant really judge a bow like this anyway, its just a bit of fun ;D ;D. And why cant we handle a bit of criticism?? are we kids or mature adults ???, (This definately isnt aimed at anyone in particular, I dont want to annoy anyone, I like you all ::).) A sense of humour would be a good thing dont ya all think?
Hope your you're still gonna send my wood now Rich???
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Hey dragonman,
Only way you won't get it is if you no longer want it.
Rich
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I sure do.
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this should all be take care of in the near future , if i understand the new way of doing it you have to email a link to have your bow intered. as for the rest of my two pennies i dont mind being in the contest although i know my bows wont win, hell neither would i in a purty contest , i've posted bout 12 or so in the last 5 months im just tickled their not breaking anymore ,thats prize enough for me ! thanks to all who have helped , looked, commented and corrected !!
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Wow I am at work and nearly took half an hour to read all the hub bub...I can see and understand your point Rich as I too will not enter in BOM. I make bows and give them away and very rarely even post one. It is ok for the handful of guys who partake in the "contest" it gives them something to be proud of or some just might like to compete to see how many times they can win and for some it is a motivator in wanting to strive to be a better bowyer. To each there own. I am all about gaining knowledge, experience, and teaching people the skills I have to carry on an age old tradition. If I had the subscription to the magazine maybe then I would think about it. I have met and become friends with a lot of people on here. I talk to some on a weekly basis even and I look forward to seeing each of their work and progression. There may be 3384 member on here but only 50 people post on a daily basis, and only 20 keep on doing the BOM. We are all like a family related in the way of primitive culture. We will all have faults or be guilty of something. There also may be cracks or fine lines between terms and definitions. We all have thoughts and opinions. This is what makes us human.
Thank you Primitive Archer,
AncientArcher/Russell
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WOW,this always comes up every few months, Glad it is staying civil. By the way there are more than 20 in the selfbow class most months and more than 50 that usually vote.Most people that are on here are like I use to be,they are hear and learning ,just don't speak up much,Just look at the name at the top of the page most days then look at the comment's. I personally like BOM and will someday enter ,just haven't taken the time to shoot some pictures,as far as beauty and firend contest,That may be true to some extent but the bows I voted for this month had nothing to do with that.I look at the bows first and have decided before I even notice who built them. I have won a few over the years and are proud of them but sure don't feel like it puts me up on anyone,I learn all the time and love the new ideas I get from people that are trying to build the best and most beautiful bow they can. Al tho yall all know I like skins and stuff I don't do it for bom,I do it for the same reason some of you don't,cause I like it. :) I also won't apologize cause I have access to
horn and skin or wood for that matter, I work hard to get that kind of stuff and happen to live in an area that is abundant with natural resources. I feel very blessed to be here. Yall have a good day
and again Thanks for keeping it civil. By the way congrats to the winners this month, Great bows and the hats are very nice. ;) :)
Pappy
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I agree with Pappy, it is staying civil, and disagreeing and arguing is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as it doesnt get personal. Diasagreeing is a way to learn, and think, and consider new ideas or better ways of doing something.
All that said, all this may be academic if you don't have many bowyers entering. You have to actively solicit your bow in the Bow of the Month Club, before I think Don entered the new bows, and if not enough folks do that, I think that the contest will eventually whiter away from lack of participation.
A copyeditor named Penny is in charge now, and I find it odd that she hasn’t reached out and introduced herself, or explained how she plans to administer the contest. It wasn’t even well advertised to the general membership of the boards, and I just came across the announcement accidentally in an area I don’t normally go to. I don’t have a lot of faith in the new contest guru if she hasn’t at least said hello, introduced herself, or even taken the time to contribute to this contest topic.
Dane
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Sorry, the name is Gina, and she is a proofer, not a copy editor. Same comments apply, though.
Dane
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It would be a pity to lose' bow of the month' If you have to make a special effort to be included I cant see many people bothering!! Whats wrong with the old system??
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Friend, Don, the originator and organizer, has retired to mess about with boats. :) Maybe you can volunteer to run the contest? You make fantastic bows, so you are well qualified, I'd say.
Dane
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I was going to go through and bookmark all the bows posted each month and then Email the links to Gina in one mass email each month... I personally would love to run the contest and I would keep it exactly as Don had it. :) I am on here everyday anyway... ;) So far I have 2 selfbows and one BBI marked. The month is still young though.
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Thanks for doiing that Josh, and I hope nobody objects. I too like the "entered by default" system, and I'm sure lots of people and bows are entered who might feel silly or vain to go out of their way to enter. I'm pretty convinced the contest will die if people have to nominate their own work for consideration. That would be a tragic outcome.
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I too must concur with the Masses.... I enjoy the BOM CONTEST....and would really hate to see it Die an agonizing death....but having to post and then nominate your own Bow....is a perfect Recipe for Disaster...jmo.... I think that Josh would make an Awesome OldBow replacement....I too was going to volunteer for it...and have been logging all Bows ....so I could enter them in case they were forgotten....I guess I am just too old...because I ain't too up on Change.... :P
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I like the idea.
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I was going to go through and bookmark all the bows posted each month and then Email the links to Gina in one mass email each month... I personally would love to run the contest and I would keep it exactly as Don had it. :) I am on here everyday anyway... ;) So far I have 2 selfbows and one BBI marked. The month is still young though.
Great idea. Go for it. Someone who's on more or less everday keeping track as the month goes is the best way to go about it.
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Josh gets my vote.....but Josh, you have to do the cool collages that Oldbow did on the winning bow ;D ;)
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Let me clarify some things with you all. Gina is more than capable of keeping track of the bows, we have Don's notes on how he did BOM and we have spoken with him. The reason Gina has yet to introduce herself is because Don was completing the BOM contest for May. We only asked you to send her the bows, so that she could make sure that nothing got left out. It was a checks and balances for us and for you all. I had hope you all would have been supportive of her before casting any stones in her direction.
Sarah
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Hey Sara,
Good for you and bravo!!!! please consider me standing.
Rich
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Well then.......lets get on with it.... :P....I for one do not want to see the BOM fade Away....it is as important to me as geting my Next Issue of Primitive Archer in the Mail....you get to see everything that is being made...see all of the New Ideas you can Steal.... ;D...I would hate to see it lay down and die... I may have been jumping on the Band Wagon along with many others here...and if I was out of line...then please accept my Appologies...and any way that I....We can help to support the BOM...just ask...seriously
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It is just important to us as it is t you that BOM continue with the integrity that it has had in the past. I think it goes along way giving her help then it does shooting her down before she even starts....
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I was just trying to help I'm sorry
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Hello Primitive Archers!
I wanted to take a minute to introduce myself. My name is Gina and I am currently a proofreader for the magazine and will be taking over BOM for Don. Don has done a tremendous job with BOM so I am little more than nervous about trying to step into his shoes. I can only try by making sure that the BOM remains a competition that showcases a bowyer's talent and in doing so also educates and helps other bowyers in their endeavors.
I also wanted to let you all know that I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all of the articles for Primitive Archer. I think primitive archery is beautiful, interesting and a wonderful way to get back to our roots and get closer to nature. I have learned so much by being able to read all of the material for the magazine and I just hope that I can contribute by keeping BOM going strong.
Please let me know any suggestions or questions you may have regarding BOM and I will be happy to listen or help out whenever and however I can.
Thank you,
Gina
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Thanks Gina for taking a moment and letting Us all know Whats Up....If We can Help to keep BOM going Strong...by introducing New Bowyers to the Primitive Archer World...and the BOM Contest...let Us know...there are many out there that enjoy the Contest...and even more that just like to look at all of the Eye Candy every Month....I am one that Votes every Month...but enters very seldom...I believe that the New Guys are the ones that Benefit from this...not the Guys that have won countless time...so I hope that We can keep it going where these Newbies will not feel like they don't stand a Chance of Winning...because they all have a Chance...in My Eyes
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Welcome aboard, Gina! I think we all share a common interest in keeping the BOM contest alive and a friendly event so if I was out of line earlier in volunteering to take it over then I sincerely apologize. If there is anything I can do to help just ask... I am only here to try and help. :)
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Welcome Gina,I feel sure you can handle the challenge.Thanks in advance. :)
Pappy
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I feel a little responsible as I'd started this thread but didn't expect it to take off to this extent or in this direction. Please accept my apology for any offensive actions. Maybe it's a good thing in a way to help clear the waters. Glad to find out who you are Gina, I'm sure you'll do a super job, PA always does well. Looking forward to it. :)
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Hello Gina, welcome...Pappy I was only repeating numbers I read in a post I dont know how many people are actually involved with BOM. As soon as I can get it together I will be back and I will get involved with BOM. Between working kids and ROCKS its been tough! Oh yeah not to mention all the Knapp-ins and Pow Wows Ive been going to. Sorry Pappy if that urked ya a bit!
Have a good day PA
Russell H.
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Welcome, Gina. Thank you for taking over BOM. I am sure you will do a great job. Jawge
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Let me clarify some things with you all. Gina is more than capable of keeping track of the bows, we have Don's notes on how he did BOM and we have spoken with him. The reason Gina has yet to introduce herself is because Don was completing the BOM contest for May. We only asked you to send her the bows, so that she could make sure that nothing got left out. It was a checks and balances for us and for you all. I had hope you all would have been supportive of her before casting any stones in her direction.
Sarah
Hi, Gina. I hope you don’t feel stones were being tossed your way from me. I was going on Sarah’s message that the way the contest would run after Don left was for bow makers to have to send entries to you. Her words seem very clear.
“If you would like to have your bow in consideration for BOM for June and all future months, please email her the link to the topic in which you have posted regarding your bow.”
The contest would have languished eventually if that were the case. It’s good to see the magazine committed to continuing this tradition. Best of luck to you, and clearly, you have folks here willing to help keep it thriving.
Dane
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And then I further explained it all by telling you all that the reason we did it, was so that we didnt miss anything.
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Hey guys,
No need to apologize, I am pretty thick-skinned so don't worry too much about me. And thanks for the support. I can't wait to see all the bows that are submitted for this month!
-Gina
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And then I further explained it all by telling you all that the reason we did it, was so that we didnt miss anything.
Yes you did, Sarah. 19 days later, on page 7 of this thread, and not before.
Dane
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I think everyone has made their points, and made them clear.... and now it is time to get on with Bow of the Month!
Welcome to the team Gina! Ok you have already been part of the team, but just behind the scenes. Welcome to the" in front of everyone" team. Enjoy the ride. ;D
Marie
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Welcome, Gina, It'll be fun. ;D
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Welcome aboard, Gina. We're a bunch of grumpy old farts, but we're not really dangerous. ;D
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... We're a bunch of grumpy old farts, ...
No I'm not!!
Not grumpy at all...
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Oh, I thought you were gonna say you weren't old, Frank ::) ;)
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Welcome and thanks for heading this up. Don't worry it's just for a little fun and entertainment. Nobody gets really serious about it. ;)
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Oh, I thought you were gonna say you weren't old, Frank ::) ;)
Oh yes... not old... just a grumpy fart!
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hey parnell started reading this and then realised i dont care ;D i did catch your comment about the build a long with stone tools though. im gonna get off my arse and do a much needed stone tool build along shortly. soon as i get my camera back from my daughter ill get started. peace