Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: markinengland on June 06, 2010, 04:52:32 am
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Are any on here current BLBS members and able to confirm the current longbow rules/definition?
I'm after this to help us sort out the Primitive bow class rules within the UK National Field Archery Society.
Thanks
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The British Longbow Society ELB definitions on what constitutes a long bow are crazy and stupid.
Bows have to have a certain cross section.
Have a D shaped belly.
have to have horn knocks ect ect ect.
All these stupid rules that are open to interpretation is madness.
My proposal: If the bow is as long as the archer is tall its a long bow!!!
Simple.
Andrew
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Spinney, I do agree with you in that the specific requirements for a "correct ELB" are a little ridiculous and designed (in my opinion) to distance it's self from basically all other forms of archery, claiming a kind of élitism and raised position in the archery world.
That being said, we've not really answered the question ;D
I'll have a word with some people that may be in the know and see what I can turn up ;)
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I agree, and whats all this 'royal order of the lonbow' and 'royal guild of master bowyers' stuff, and special outfits, isnt it a bit outdated , totally elitist, and a bit silly??? a long bow is a bow of long length
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We have this discussion at least twice a year in my home forum . ;D
We didn't really came to a point yet ???
Out of the " Encyclopedia of Archery "
" Types of bows
Main article: Bow (weapon)
A longbow is a type of bow that is tall (roughly equal to or greater than the height of a person), is not recurved, and has relatively narrow limbs that are D-shaped in cross section. The traditional English longbow is usually made so that its thickness is at least ⅝ of its width. If the thickness is less than ⅝ of its width then the bow would be disqualified from most modern longbow competitions. Typically a longbow is widest at the handle. Longbows have been used for hunting and warfare, by many cultures around the world, a famous example being the English longbow, during the Middle Ages. "
acker
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Some of the definitions are nonsense and some people get rather precious about it all.
These self proclaimed experts, societies and guilds irritate me!
I doubt that all the Mary Rose bows would meet some of the definitions.
BTW, TBB vol 1 has got it wrong! :o The Mary Rose was raised from Portsmouth Harbour not Plymouth.
I hate rules and regulations, my self Yew bow wouldn't meet some definitions as it has self nocks which is bonkers when some laminated scawny thing made of exotic woods not used in medieval times with a chess piece stuck on each end would qualify.
Del
<click... grumpy mode off>
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Ah let them have their societies and guilds and all the farcical shite that they build walls around themselves with. They've got their ideas, just like everyone else has their own. Some like arrow shelves, some don't. Some like recurves, some don't. Some only make selfbows, others; laminates... It's a big ol' World out there. Each to his/her own. It's only if/when someone has a pop at your interests that they need to be "reassured of their position in life" ;D
If people/clubs/associations wish to restrict the types of bows into shoots and competitions because they don't meet "authentic" specifications... Then they're missing out on a world of fun. So I say we have the fun without them... :D
And no... next I won't be saying "we should include compound bows in traditional shoots..." hehehe
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I'm assuming that none of the respondents to this post are actually members of the BLBS. If they were they would know, if they read the inside of any BLBS year book, that the BLBS exists to perpetuate the shooting of longbows as they were shot in the pre Victorian and Edwardian eras (late 18th to early 20th century). For any of you that own surviving examples of bows from this era (Buchanan, Muir, Aldred, Ayres, Waring...etc) you will know that the BLBS specification matches exactly the form and style of the bows used in an era many people believe to be the golden age of competitive target archery.
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I respect your personal interests and preferences, but not the confused ideas about the elb that abound here in the uk. The elb was developed as a mass produced weapon of war, by corrupt saxon and norman kings in the middle ages, to arm the dissposable cannon fodder, in corrupt wars and subjugation of the people. The original free inhabitants of these islands , long killed off, used different syle bows, which where the original elbs, these where the true golden days I believe
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Would it be too much to ask to keep this thread on track?
If you want to digress and talk about other things please create your own thread.
If you can answer my genuine question, asked to help clarify a genuine issue for primitive archers being forced to shoot within the NFAS longbow class because they happen to have a bow that is long and narrow please do so.
So, how exactly does the BLBS define "longbow"? I'm after the exact quoted wording.
Thanks
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Would it be too much to ask to keep this thread on track?
If you want to digress and talk about other things please create your own thread.
If you can answer my genuine question, asked to help clarify a genuine issue for primitive archers being forced to shoot within the NFAS longbow class because they happen to have a bow that is long and narrow please do so.
So, how exactly does the BLBS define "longbow"? I'm after the exact quoted wording.
Thanks
OK... Short answer I don't have the BLBS definition (I won't insult you by suggesting the obvious place to ask).
But... IMHO.
If you are interested in NFAS classifications, then I don't see that the BLBS has any relevance at all.
When you say you are trying to 'sort out' the NFAS deffinition, does that mean you are involved in re-writing it?
I'm in the NFAS and having just read their definitions, as far as I can see there is some ambiguity and overlap. The deffinition of 'primitive' it says 'based on evdience for a bow which existed at least 500 years ago' but the longbow fits this, it also says 'consrtructed of natural materials (excluding glues and finishes) but most longbows would also meet this.
I can find no reference to length!
It seems that from a technical/scientific/beurocratic viewpoint the definition is poor. But from the point of view of someone making and shooting bows for enjoyment and using their common sense it is excellent.
So you declare the category it belongs in as long as you can justify it. (which is sort of the point I was alluding to in my previous post)
Out of interest I'm currently making a 59" primitive Yew bow, the stave is rather narrow, it could be argued that it fits in with the NFAS definition of 'longbow' which could be useful as I shoot in a 'longbow only' club. However common sense and a casual glance tells you it is a primitive.
If you are involved in re-writing the definition I would plead for as little change as possible. Maybe just add the wording that 'Longbow is a subset of primitive' and add a lower length limit for longbow (e.g no shorter than the height of the archer minus two inches (or some such figure)).
I think rules often add to the confusion rather than minimising it, so if you add fancy definitions of cross section who is going to check it? (Have you got the verniers? No I always walk like this ::))
I hope that this is some both on topic and some help (I hope it wasn't me that you were slapping down :'( )
Del
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With all respect.We are a bunch of predominantly American 'PRIMITIVE archers, so what kind of answer did you expect to get? I dont think my reply was off the point, who can have a monopoly on the term ' longbow' and' english'? and how long is long? and how short is short? , I was just making the point that it needs some more practical definitions, why stick to the old ones if they dont make sense? Long obviously refers to length, so fixing a length would be a good practical start! Roughly as long as the archer, isnt really that helpful.! As for cross sections etc thats ridiculous, what other bow class would use these kind of rules? Would compounds fix diameter and shape and width and cross sections of cams? How flat should an american flat bow be?. Bowyers are practical people concerned with pracicalities, and practical solutions, we will help them redefine their terms and sort this problem out!!
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Perhaps, Dragonman, the war bow folks are trying to import that nonesense here? I can not for the life of me see why there is such animosity over the English longbow and it's varients, but lots of venom is on exhibit, was on, and will be on exhibit.
Dane
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Dane, perhaps thats because they are , or where 'warbows', there is the echo of war attatched to them
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My theory is that the spirits of the medieval dead somehow influence them, and they can be a bit belligerant. I don't totally believe that, but do a bit.
Dane
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B.L.B.S. bow specs
Rule 8... Bows shall be the traditional 19th century recreational long bow made from wood.
Bows over 70lbs weight at full draw are not allowed for target or clout shooting.
Self and Backed Bows .. the profile of self bows and bows backed with a single laminate shall be governered soley by the unaltered natural shape of the staves or billets from which the belly of the bow is made. The depth of the back shall generally not be not more than one third of the total at any point.
Laminated bows may be made of wood or bamboo and may contain from three to six laminations from back to belly inclusive. When braced the profile of each limb shall be a simple curve from handle to nock.
The horn nocks shall completely surround the tip of each limb. For all bows the string may contact the braced bow only at the nocks and shall not touch the limbs.
Extra laminates at the nocks to thicken the bow or to help seperates the string from the bow are not allowed.
Hope this helps ...
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B.L.B.S. bow specs
Rule 8... Bows shall be the traditional 19th century recreational long bow made from wood.
Bows over 70lbs weight at full draw are not allowed for target or clout shooting.
Self and Backed Bows .. the profile of self bows and bows backed with a single laminate shall be governered soley by the unaltered natural shape of the staves or billets from which the belly of the bow is made. The depth of the back shall generally not be not more than one third of the total at any point.
Laminated bows may be made of wood or bamboo and may contain from three to six laminations from back to belly inclusive. When braced the profile of each limb shall be a simple curve from handle to nock.
The horn nocks shall completely surround the tip of each limb. For all bows the string may contact the braced bow only at the nocks and shall not touch the limbs.
Extra laminates at the nocks to thicken the bow or to help seperates the string from the bow are not allowed.
Hope this helps ...
Well there ya go.
My Longbow doesn't qualify... too heavy, no horn nocks...bonkers.
Del <slaps furry head with paw>
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Del .... read the first line of rule 8....
19th century recreational target bows had horn nocks....
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Horace,
Thanks. The BLBS definition appears to be less clear than it used to be, but at least now I can tell my friends that this is the case.
To what some others have said, primitive archers shooting in NFAS are simply trying to get a workable open definition agreed that allows us to make and shoot primitive bows be that wide and flat or narrow and deep without getting into an arguament about whether they are longbows or not (as these have a seperate class).
Not slapping down anyone, just trying to keep it on track. Thanks for all the interest, even if it was heated at times!
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I genuinely hope it all gets sorted ,and all wooden bowmen can shoot together, its especially needed here in uk.
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I genuinely hope it all gets sorted ,and all wooden bowmen can shoot together, its especially needed here in uk.
ABSOLUTLEY 100% right
This may be of interest www.fieldandrovingarcherysociety.co.uk (http://www.fieldandrovingarcherysociety.co.uk)
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There's a very interesting definition for ELBs at: http://www.longbow-archers-association.org/definitionlongbow.html
Although this might look a bit long winded its actually designed to include as wide a range as possible of the tradtional styles of English longbow - horn nocks are optional, all kinds of proflies are included provided they can fit within a 8:5 proportion. The BLBS definition is really concerned with victorian target bows and excludes the medieval style bows.
In the UK bows with wide flat limbs are simply not referred to as longbows but as either flatbows of AFBs (American Flatbows). They are very popular with field archers it's just that we don't call them longbows to avoid confusion with the traditional narrow limbed European style.
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Del .... read the first line of rule 8....
19th century recreational target bows had horn nocks....
Hmmm (you really think I didn't?)
I'd suggest the society's title is somewhat of a missnomer... maybe 'Late Georgian Longbow Society' would be better, it seems it's rather narrow snapshot of history and hardly representative of the bows main use.
Del
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Horace,
Thanks. The BLBS definition appears to be less clear than it used to be, but at least now I can tell my friends that this is the case.
To what some others have said, primitive archers shooting in NFAS are simply trying to get a workable open definition agreed that allows us to make and shoot primitive bows be that wide and flat or narrow and deep without getting into an arguament about whether they are longbows or not (as these have a seperate class).
Not slapping down anyone, just trying to keep it on track. Thanks for all the interest, even if it was heated at times!
A worthy aim indeed, my personal view is that a longbow can be a subset of primitive, I don't see why this should be a problem, it would mean you have a choice of category if your longbow is a self bow and you are shooting 'primitive' arrows.
I have a keen interest as I shoot in both categories.
Del
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Horace said:
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This may be of interest www.fieldandrovingarcherysociety.co.uk (http://www.fieldandrovingarcherysociety.co.uk)
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MIght be. But there is no mention of insurance, nor any details of forthcoming shoots on the web site. Also how to join?
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Del,
Personally I think much the same. Problem is that NFAS Committee and shoot organisers have a bee in their bonnet about primitive bows that are like longbows shooting in longbow class, even if primitive archers themselves don't mind. I'm sure we'll end up sorting some kind of wording out that is an acceptable if not perfect compromise.