Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: gmc on June 20, 2010, 04:25:49 pm
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If you're Daddy out there, Happy Fathers Day!
I have some general bow making questions with regards to HHB. I tried a little kids bow out of this stuff a few months back and found it really hard to work and no doubt didn't have it dry enough or didn't follow my bow making instruction manual properly >:D. The stuff gave me the impression that it could have been tied in a knot to slowly unravel itself over time.
Thought I'd give it another shot with a little stave that's 58'' long about 1.5 wide (all I got). The density feels just a little under Hickory, and I will obviously bend it through the handle (I have no problem with that). Having never worked with the wood before, other than one failed attempt, my question is should the sapwood be removed or just build a bow. I'd like to try leaving a few layers of stapwood for the contrast, has anybody tried that one?
What's the general procedure here with regards to sapwood (what's everybody else doing out there)? Here's a picture of what I have to work with.
All comments appreciated.
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh213/colevy/staveshot-1.jpg)
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hhb as in hop horn beam?
peel the bark like any other white wood,then that your back of your bow
all the hhb i have is so fine ringed i wouldnt want to chase it
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Yes, as in Hop Horn Beam. This stuff is thick ringed with a pretty thick pithy outer layer with about 4 rings worth of sapwood. Wouldn't be no problem at all to chase, I wouldn't even be asking had the last one not resembled stretch armstrong. All I hear is wonderful things about this wood, just trying to figure out what I maybe doing wrong.
Thanks, Mike.
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wow ??? never seen hhb like you described
maybe wait untill others chime in
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Like Tim said, with HHB just remove the bark and use what's under it for the back.
Are you sure what you have is HHB. I never noticed the heartwood being so dark. Can you post a pic of the bark?
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Pat:
Already debarked what I had but there is story behind it anyway. The generous lady that allowed me to cut the tree had worked for the forestry department several years and even at that rate she had to show me in the book to confirm. She actally got the book out while I standing there to prove it with the leaves. The leaf growth was early during April but there was enough to ID the tree, enough to convince me, anyway.
It was about a 4 inch diameter tree standing straight amongst a bunch of locust. I actually thought it was locust to start with.
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No pictures with the bark on but I did find the sister split. A few more pictures....
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh213/colevy/bsidephoto1.jpg)
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh213/colevy/besidephoto2.jpg)
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I have seen maybe one HHB log with the quantity of heartwood that your last picture shows. It seems incredibly rare for most stave sized HHB to ever produce anything but the smallest amount of heartwood. I have seen it more in larger trees cut for firewood.
Is the first picture from the same tree? I have never seen HHB with thick rings or even thinner rings that I would contemplate chasing.
Definitely leaving the underbark ring intact is the typical method for this wood.
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PatM:
Yes, its the same tree but in direct sunlight so it does portray the wood a bit darker than it really is in the photo. The first picture is pretty much spot on to what it looks like. Wished I hadn't tossed the end piece that I cut off, it still had the bark. Not sure what else it could be if not HBB.
Thanks for your response.
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ive got some hhb in the garage but none of it looks like that
i'll go get a pic or two and post it for ya,bark and wood,sorry i dont a have a leaf to show
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AFTER LOOKING VERY VERY CLOSE AT THE PIC S I DO NOT BELIVE THIS TO BE HHB I THINK WHAT YOU HAVE IS A VERY VERY GOOD PIECE OF E R C IV MADE SEVERAL OWS OUT OF HHB AND ALL IV GOT HAS NEVER HAD A SAP ON IT AS THE ONE IN UR PIC S I DO IAGREE WITH ALL THE OTHER S PEEL THE BARK THERE S UR BACK ALL THE HHB IV GOT HAS ALSO COME OUT OF ILL WE NEED TO GET DEAN MARLOW ON HERE AND ASK HIM BROCK
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I've only made one HHB bow and it is posted this month. It sure didn't look like that. Looking at that wood, I don't think it would take the kind of bend I subjected the 1 1/8" wide piece of wood I used.
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I can not believe I found the end cut from the log but I sorted through the wood pile long enough to find it. Here is both side and top view of the end piece. Glad I sealed it that day, the bottom side is black.
Thanks for the help. Hope this solves the mystery.
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh213/colevy/barktopview.jpg)
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh213/colevy/bark.jpg)
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well heres the bark
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/1809/1001705u.jpg)
a look at the wood,this was from a log that was 8" diameter
(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/973/1001706m.jpg)
the back after bark removal.the pic doesnt show it but it has alot of valleys etc in the wood pretty much where the cambium is still apparent
(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/416/1001708v.jpg)
the rings,if you can see them ;)
(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6990/1001709g.jpg)
hope this helps
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Hey thanks for posting those pictures :). There are apparent differences in the two ???, I will leave a couple layers of sapwood on the back just to try something new and build a bow out of it and see what I end up with.
Thanks again for everyone's help.
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Looks like the hop hornbeam we have here Ostrya japonica .
Japanese species is having much red heartwood, you can see here http://blog-imgs-21.fc2.com/p/a/k/paktake/20080322195414.jpg (http://blog-imgs-21.fc2.com/p/a/k/paktake/20080322195414.jpg)
The density is around 0.60～0.73 so slight lighter weight than hickory.
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Sailorday, for some reason the images you posted will not load on my computer. grrrr I'm having a similar issue with "supposed" hhb. I asked a friend if he knew what ironwood look like, because it's good bow. He said I have plenty on my farm and cut a tree for me. I violate the back pealing the bark on the straightest stave. I attempted to chase a ring and realize that was beyond my capabilities. So, I grab the chain saw and did a quarter sawn section to use as a board bow.
Well, this stuff seems heavy and porous. Heating take forever to get it hot to the touch. It just seems to soak up the heat. Once I had taken from the form it was straight. A week later I bent it like floor tillering and it took an inch or better set. This log was cut in Oct. It has been in controlled enviroment with should have the moisture content between 6.5 and 9.5.
Like gmc, I'm really confused as to what I actually have and how to deal with it. My thoughts are to back it with hickory and see what happens.
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Looks like the hop hornbeam we have here Ostrya japonica .
Japanese species is having much red heartwood, you can see here http://blog-imgs-21.fc2.com/p/a/k/paktake/20080322195414.jpg (http://blog-imgs-21.fc2.com/p/a/k/paktake/20080322195414.jpg)
The density is around 0.60～0.73 so slight lighter weight than hickory.
That is interesting, my guess would be around .60 for this wood as the Hickory normally runs in the low seventies here locally. Thanks for the response.
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What you have there looks more like Elm, at least from the bark, but it doesn't split like Elm. Certainly not HHB
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Looks exactly like Elm. Probably Red Elm. Your tree expert is not an expert at all. The bark is not even close to HHB. Elm and HHB leaves have a fair amount of similarity.
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Looking elm to me. Nice clean stave, may a bit too much ring. Take care with sap wood, it schould need some backing if too much early wood in it (?)
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Here's pics of the ironwood, HHB ?? a friend cut for me. Is it HHB. Sorry I don't have any leaves
[attachment deleted by admin]
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hedgeapple the tree on the left is Hackberry. I don't know what thr right log is exactly. I think I got a piece of HHB out in the shop. I will try and post a picture of it. Dean
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Here are some pics of HHB I have here in West Central Illinois. Sorry I don't have pictures of the bark but you can see by the narrow growth rings it grows real slow here. There was no chasing a ring with the 2 bows I made out of it. Take the bark off and that is the back. It is a creamy white color and sometimes there will be a little darker wood towards the middle of the log. It is a top whitewood for bows if you can find some that will split out half way straight.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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This is downright embarrassing. I'm so confused right now I'm not even sure about the Bradford Pear in the front yard. ::)
Dang it, Hedgeapple, that tree on the right is a beach >:D. Do I need to borrow that book and come over there to confirm it. ;D
Thanks again for the all pictures and help guys. This red elm or whatever it is will try to touch its toes shortly.
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Guys the "two" trees in my photo are the same tree. The one of the left is the lower section of the trunk and the one one of the right is the section just above it. They both come for the same tree.
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i agree hackberry
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You can tell that the wood is ring porous and that disqualifies HHB.
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The trees in the picture,standing are Hackberry,I am sure of that and the last pictures are what all the IW. I have worked with look like,the first pictures ,I agree look like some kind of elm,But not IW.
Pappy
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Well I agree with pat and pappy, It is red elm. I presently have several staves on hand, that is what it looks like to me, However it somewhat looks like black walnut, except for the dark red hue.Then Again you would have known that for the nuts at the base of the tree. O:)I have several hhb staves and have worked with it several times. I think it is the hardest wood to build a bow from, But ooh what a beauty it is when you get one completed. By the way I fine red elm a lot like black cherry , and all the ones i built needed backed. It is a light wood, but is quite fast. A real pretty bow tho. Hhb needs no backing and i use the sap wood for looks too.I might add it seems to twist easy. My 2 cents. Denny