Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ken75 on June 25, 2010, 12:00:37 am
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this is something im curious about . in my opinion based on vast (almost no experience ,ive been making bows since November so i still haven't had my birthday.) i have built around 25 bows of every design i can dream up , if tillered correct with minimal set it seems to me that the most stable ,easy to shoot, most accurate and for me the fastest bows are 62 to 66 inch pyramid style limbs . i usually adjust fade width depending on wood used narrow with my ipe bows in comparison to hickory and black walnut, cherry i also keep wide. most tips on my bows will be 3/8ths so not a lot of variances there. i almost always use a four inch handle with one inch for the fades.
anyway with the years of experience and building different designs i would be happy to hear opinions from everyone on their likes and preferences in limb design.
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well i think every design has its plusses and minuses. that is each is created for good reason, but you're asking which is accurate, easy to shoot, fast and stable. i would have to agree that given a large diameter stave, that the rigid handle pyramid at 66 inches is hard to beat. however if you throw in varaibles such as "what's best to hunt with in my particular area" or " what's the best i can do with this skinny crooked stave" , then other designs gain credibility.
my hunting bow is shorter due to the brushy rainforest i live in- so i use a 57 inch bendy handle pyramid.
but for fun and casual target shooting, i like to make long, narrow deflex sapling bows out of the crookedest VM i can find. quickie bows i can lend out, abuse, and experiment with.
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Hey Ken,
I have to believe that you are pretty much correct with your assumption. If you allow that the basic pyramid is a straight taper from fade to tip I have to agree.....makes a fast bow thats stable.
I do believe that the design also gives the most work out of the wood, but still gives good longevity. Can't say exactly about the length though.....might have something to do with the size of the man and draw length. I'm not very tall and have some pyramid's as short as 50/52 and they shoot real good for me, but so does the 60" size. It's a darned good deign. JMO
Rich
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I agree it's hard to beat the pyramid limb design,we set most of our blanks up that way for the selfbow Challenge at the Classic,easy to tiller and shoot great, I will say I don't use it much on my own,I do lay out a 4 inch handle and usually about 1 to 1 1/2 inch fads and from 62 to 66 N-N.
I do most, what ever I want the limb with to be at the fads to about mid limb then tapper to the tips.
My tip wind up more like a 1/4.Don't know what this design is called so we call it a Tennessee modified homie. :) :) They are also stable,no hand shock but a little more trouble to tiller IMO. I rarely ever build a bendy handle bow unless I am using a short piece of wood or a small diameter stave or limb bow. :)
Pappy
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There are a lot of variables. Chief among them is the wood you are using. I let the stave determine the design. It just kind of happens. Honestly, I rarely set out to make a bow of a certain design. Pyramid bows are great bows provided they are tillered properly with a circular tiller so that the near handle wood does its share of the work. Jawge
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thanks for all who have shared , im still new at this and plan building several hundred more before i really consider myself good , im open to all designs and i'll try most anything , just my observation so far is pyramid seems for me the best i've done. i wonder sometimes just how many locals i can infect with this bug ! i've given away a dozen and still have people asking about them
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25 bows in one year. Wow! I never did that before. That's great. Jawge
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It depends on the size and shape of your stave...that's why I love self bows from staves.
Of course the size of staves depends on how big a tree/branch you are willing to saw through.
Biggest stuff I get is about 5" diameter, often it's much smaller.
I've never done an even thickness, just tapered in width pyramid, mine are generally tapered in width and thickness.
Tiller wise I generally go for an arc of a circle, but have done some stiffer tip designs.
I love 'em all, I don't want to be making the same style every time. Even with an ELB you can vary the tiller.
Del
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There are a lot of variables. Chief among them is the wood you are using. I let the stave determine the design. It just kind of happens. Honestly, I rarely set out to make a bow of a certain design. Pyramid bows are great bows provided they are tillered properly with a circular tiller so that the near handle wood does its share of the work. Jawge
Hey Jawge,
How close to "near handle" are you talking about? 1-2"? The reason I ask is that I'm going to give a oak/hic back pyramid a try. I'm wanting to go short on this one, more like a horse bow.
Thanks in advance
Ron
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okie hopefully jawge will answer this soon but i think he is refering to the first third portion of the limb. that was one of the first problems i encountered with pyramids not enough near handle wood working and too much set
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I don't think there is much difference among selfbow designs with regards to performance (selfbows are somewhat limiting to start with). However, I do think the pyramid limb design is easier to work. Its much easier to control limb width than tapper thickness. Of course the ability to apply correct design principle to a given wood helps, but a good quality stave to start with doesn't hurt anything either. ;D
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okie, the limbs on a pyramid should start bending right out of the fades. The tiller should appear circular. Yes, the inner third should bend more than the outer third. Be careful you don't cause a hinge out of the fade though. Jawge
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After making about 65 bows, have come up with two favorites ...
For Target shooting or shooting the old foam deer, I really like a eyebrow tall ELB 50 lb. made from ERC with a 3/32" Hickory backing , glued up with about 4" of Perry reflex... Very stable ,very accurate @ 20+ yards (target shooting range), casts my larger barreled arrows pretty quick, no problem. Made a few of these ... ;)
For real hunting close in (stalking/ambush < 15yds) A smaller wider pyramid bow works great with my hiding behind the tree ,crouched over butt out hunting stance ::) ... 60" N2N ,2.25" wide > 3/8" tips , 50 lbs.@ 28" Most any good bow wood works at this width and the limbs will be thinner than a narrower bow at the same weight ... For camo , I just glue polyester (non primitive ) camo net over the back and sides ... becomes invisible in the woods (don't lay it down )... and I think the camo net may serve as a backing of sorts , as I apply it stretched tight and on the bias so the threads share an equal load... ??
Just my 2 cents of what's worked for me .... But now , i just love to find an odd limb or sapling , and whittle it away into a bow , that's mostly dictated by the wood ... just having fun seeing what comes out ... no pre conceived notions ... Very enjoyable ... No pressure ... Just LOVE making bows .... arrows ... eh !!!
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not trying to start anything here or pic on any one buuuuuuuuuut
gpw if your bow is only "eyebrow" tall it is not an ELB
an ELB is man tall(or taller) and has a "D" cross section,plus other factors that make it a ELB
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Picky picky ... ::) eyebrow tall on me is 72"... Good enough for me ... !!! And the ERC allows it to be a D shape cross section , flat on the back ... easy to work too , smells good !! Light in the hand ...
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Not to derail the thread from its original intent. But, in response to sailordad's post:
I've struggled with the accepted "definitions" and criteria that determines what an ELB is. Let's assume that a particular bow meets all the criteria for an ELB except one, and that being the one you commented on (that the bow must be at least "man tall"). Let's assume said bow is 72 inches in length. This bow would be an ELB in the hands of a 70" tall archer but would no longer be an ELB in the hands of a 76" archer. The bow didn't change, but its classification did. Seems ridiculous to me to measure something with a standard that isn't fixed. You can argue til you're blue in the face about what makes an bow an ELB, but it's futile.
GPW: backed ERC are snappy shooters, aren't they? I, too, like them 70-72 inches tall and D shape in cross section. The design is very forgiving shooting inaccuracies and look (and smell) great.
Now to the original post: I agree that the pyramid is a fantastically efficient, sweet drawing, easy to tiller, high-cast-potential design that works well given the right wood. Yet I agree with Jawge in that you can't always get the bow you want out of a piece of wood due to its specific gravity, width, length, crown, etc. Nonetheless, I've made many pyramid bows and teach bow building classes where students build a pyramid board bow in a day. The design is not only a great teaching tool, it produces a respectable weapon.
God Bless <><
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Cosmically , those "rules" mean very little those of us just seeking a little friendly discussion and a bit of Fun ... If this Forum has become so RIGID and uncongenial to those motives , then I'll be moving on ... ( cheaper than trying to get 3" cut off my spine to be "legal" ) I've been doing this stuff all my 62 years , nothing new , just wanted to share my experiences... :-\
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pyramid bows seem to be the only thing i can make decently..
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gpw i've never been much on rules,or fittin in , and im sure i dont make "proper bows" but they blow my skirt up and thats all that matters
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Well said, ken75! :)
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okie, the limbs on a pyramid should start bending right out of the fades. The tiller should appear circular. Yes, the inner third should bend more than the outer third. Be careful you don't cause a hinge out of the fade though. Jawge
Thanks Jawge.
Always very carefull about hinges nowadays, created more than one getting in a hurry. But one more question.....Have you ever (anyone chime in please) made one (pyramid) as short as 48-52"? I'm wanting to go real compact and stealthy. As I said earlier in this thread, more like a horse bow. I know I will have to narrow the width a bit ;D. Looking for 26-27" draw @ 45-50#.
Any suggestions from my PA family? Don't care how tall ya are ;D ::) ;D ;)
Thanks as always
God Bless
Ron
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Im working on a 48" shorty right now...I didnt choose pyramid though because its red oak and my max width is only 1.5.
I've made a 48" pyramid though...sweet to draw with no stack out to 25"...its only around 30 lbs at that weight though.
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okie 56 tip to tip is as short as ive gone , but i aint saying it wont work , just post some pics if you make it ... or break it !!
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okie, check out some of half eye's post's, he build's some short hunting weight bows, purty close to your draw length
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I'm with you, 66" ntn pyramid bows are definately some of th nicest, sweetest, simplest bows to build. I think the biggest thing is they perform so well for less work. Actually, looking at some of the fastest selfbows made by Badger, Tim Baker, Marc St. Louis, et al. you notice that their flatbows do bear almost pyramid like profiles, keeping set on the inner limbs low, wide enough at mid limb to keep set and mass low, and tips light (though stiff, rather than bendy like a true pyramid or whatever).
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thanks for the comments everyone , kegan ive seen yours , nice bows
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GPW you could give your bow to me ,it would be over my head making it an elb :D
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I'm not one for rules either, as far as i'm concerned if a string holds two ends of a stick together it is a bow...but, there really isn't a set length of ELB's as far as i know, the only real "rules" that i know of are that the cross section should be the same shape throughout the bow, even at the handle (no narrowed handle or fades), and that it should be stacked, i.e. "5/8" rule.
From Robert Hardy's book Longbow, "The length between nocks, measured along the back of the bow, shall not be less than 5 feet for arrows up to 26 inches long, and not less than 5 ft 6 inches for arrows over 26 inches long." Those are short bows!
I think medieval bowyers were much more flexible in bow design than what we think from watching Robin Hood. If they had had a "short" stave i doubt they would have thrown it in the firewood pile.
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I have never made a bow from a board so i very rarely get to choose the design. >:(
I just keep making bows until i get the one i want, then i shoot it some and give it away and have to make another ;D
I dont tend to come across timber that is upto the full ELB kind of dimensions that wouldnt chrystal or take loads of set making the cast wubbish. That and the fact my preferred weight is sub 55lbs,, more like 45 so the flatter limb bow just seems to work for me.