Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Grunt on July 31, 2010, 08:41:44 am
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Since most folks start bow making with board bows why isn't there a bom category for plain and simple board bows?
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Granted board bows and stave bows are mostly made from a single stick of wood but the techniques to get to final tillering vary a great deal. Many board bows have an added on riser, and many an ELB or ALB has added on tips; which technically makes them composite bows even though they aren't classed that way. Yet if I take a board and glue on some long angled tips (called siyahs) of the same wood, suddenly I've made a composite bow, even if it's all Elm. Go figure!
The ultimate reason for there not being a BOM category for board bows is because the Publisher of PA has decreed that there not be.
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I guess I can understand their way of thinking. Comes a point we would have to have a BOM for Sioux horsebows versus Penobscot compound, vs Caddo decrowned hickory, kiln dried vs air dried, left handed vs right handed vs ambidextrous.
We're good the way we are. And anyone out there that thinks just cuz it's a board bow it's easy, try your hand at a few. Keep scraping folks, keep posting!
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Granted board bows and stave bows are mostly made from a single stick of wood but the techniques to get to final tillering vary a great deal. Many board bows have an added on riser, and many an ELB or ALB has added on tips; which technically makes them composite bows even though they aren't classed that way. Yet if I take a board and glue on some long angled tips (called siyahs) of the same wood, suddenly I've made a composite bow, even if it's all Elm. Go figure!
The ultimate reason for there not being a BOM category for board bows is because the Publisher of PA has decreed that there not be.
Well there's an assumption for ya and totally wrong. The publishers at PA had/have nothing to do with BOM.
This was all started by members many years ago, actually suggested by one member in particular that no longer comes here. The exact way it came to be in the magazine is a bit fuzzy in my mind now but I know Don Berg took on the task of setting up the polls and it was then suggested that it become a monthly addition to the magazine. There was no category for laminated bows at first, they were all lumped together but it soon became apparent that another category was needed. It was also suggested at one point that a category for stoned bows be included but there are so few of those that it was voted down.
Board bows are not much different that a stave bow and you can make a board bow look exactly like a stave bow with some wood species, Osage, White Ash, Hickory and Elm to name a few. I don't see the point of it
P.S. I'd be more inclined to have a category for horn bows because when there's one of those in the vote it invariably wins :)
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I don't think a separate category is needed. Boards are wood. Stave bows can have glued on handles too. I know that for a fact. :) Jawge
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"The publishers at PA had/have nothing to do with BOM."
Now there's an assumption for ya. And totally wrong!
If this website is the on-line organ of PA - TRUE - and the BOM appears in the printed and on-line versions of the PA magazine - TRUE - then by God the publishers at PA do have something to do with the BOM!!! It's your logic that is faulty Mr. St. Louis; not mine.
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lol another hanger on !
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Ken, I'm sorry but it is your logic that's flawed. Your original statement was that it was a publishers decree. That would imply they made a direct decision, directive, order to only have 2 categories for BOM. Marc was only pointing out that PA publishers have nothing to do with how BOM is run and make no decisions other than to continue printing it in the mag. Your second argument that they have something to do with BOM because well they simply choose to print it, while true, is asinine and irrelevant to the topic being discussed.
Now back to on topic.
Grunt, I'm assuming that you mean that it might be a good category for beginners to compete in. The only thing with that is most R/D bows are "board" bows too. So in a sorts the laminated bow category is overfilled with board bows ;D
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I like the contest the way that it is. One category for "one chunk of wood" bows, and another category for "multiple chunks of wood and other stuff".
It could be disected into 20 different categories; leg sinew backed bows, back sinew bows, recurves, ELB, short bows, longbows, paddle bows, pyramid bows, and so on. If that happened, the BOM contest would be garbage. Just my two cents.
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viva la horn bows!
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Every laminated bow I have made was a board. If you carve a selfbow from a board, it will fall into the selfbow category. Glued on risers have nothing to do with it. It is the working portion of the limb we are worried about.
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What's a board bow ;) O:) ::)?
Should be a Cat-egory for bows made by small furry mammals. ;D
Del
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Thanks for clarifying that NTD.
Another thing is that a glued on riser or overlays do not make a bow a composite bow. According to the fita rules for flight shooting a primitive bow is allowed to have a tip overlay of no more than 2". Spliced bows, built up handles, all allowed in the primitive selfbow class. Any sort of backing is not allowed and bumps a bow into the composite class, that is the only difference with BOM.
I believe I understand the reason for the question but it would just make things too complicated and I think Josh is worked pretty hard as it is. I know many times Don would miss a bow because there we re so many posted that a person would almost have to live on the PA message board to catch them all.
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All that I have heard is valid. Didn't mean bump into a hornets nest. It is easy to make something complicated and very difficult to make something simple. This discussion is important and should be ongoing to some degree. The BOM process has probably elevated the art of bow building more than we all realize.
Peace brothers.
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I think it works well the way it is. Like said the categories would be endless and take up too much space. On the other hand I too think horn bows have an advantage in bom. Im sure they are extremely challenging to build but they can be made into designs that are not logical if using only wood. With the drastic bends and shapes its hard for a wood bow to go up against one as an equal. They are not equal. Maybe less equal than self bows and backed bows are. But still. not a lot of composite horn bows are posted and we all enjoy seeing, and voting for them. Keeping the categories simple is best. I know that at some of the shooting events I go to they consider boo backed bows in the selfbow class. If any changes are made I think the silliest thing is that rawhide and sinew are not considered backings. Clearly they are glued on to prevent damage and or boost performance. Same reason we put bamboo and wood backings on our bows. True self bows should be with no backing other than decoration like paint or snake skins. Maybe thats why they started calling the backed bows laminated bows. What makes it laminated as opposed to a selfbow? If bamboo fibers where applied in thin strips like sinew would that make it a selfbow. ;D All said I think its good like it is ;D
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I like it the way it is too, all i have built are board bows so far :) Its for fun right ? makes me want to build more bows, have them seen and critiqued by others so i can build better bows . I think josh does a good job w/ bom too.
sa,
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I like it the way it is. I know in the past, the idea of new categories was struck down primarily because it would get too complicated and would be too much work for Don. I think it would also be more than what Josh would want to take on.
If there were any changes made, I'd like to see sinew and rawhide backed bows moved to Laminates like Jesse. After all, the only difference in a sinew backed bow and a horn bow is a thin strip of horn on the belly.
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The reasoning we had in keeping sinew backed and rawhide backed bows along with the selfbows is that they are just as easily made with hand tools as a selfbow, just an extra step. Not so with a hard backed bow. Very hard to make one of those with just hand tools.
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The reasoning we had in keeping sinew backed and rawhide backed bows along with the selfbows is that they are just as easily made with hand tools as a selfbow, just an extra step. Not so with a hard backed bow. Very hard to make one of those with just hand tools.
Yeah I guess it would take a bit longer to use only hand tools but any bow could be made with hand tools. Composite bows were made for centuries with hand tools as well. I dont see what the construction method has to do with the end result. If you cut out a selfbow with a bandsaw its easier but its still a selfbow. No matter how many times its explained to me it doesn't make sense. I think the bottom line is that those who make sinew and rawhide backed bows dont want to be in the same group as laminates. Which I can understand :) I dont like the term laminate. Sounds like a glass bow but it still doesnt make a sinew backed bow a selfbow :) Self bow = a bow made from itself and nothing else. Composite bow = a bow made from more than one piece of material. Thats how I see it anyway. Maybe it should be selfbows and composites as the two categories.
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It is possible to make a hard backed bow with just hand tools, I know because I've done it.
I can see how someone with a rawhide backed bow may not want to be lumped in with the backed bows but a sinew backed bow can be an impressive piece of work and as far as I'm concerned can easily go head to head with a hard backed bow
In any case if you really want it changed then you could start a poll to see how many people agree
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It is possible to make a hard backed bow with just hand tools, I know because I've done it.
I can see how someone with a rawhide backed bow may not want to be lumped in with the backed bows but a sinew backed bow can be an impressive piece of work and as far as I'm concerned can easily go head to head with a hard backed bow
In any case if you really want it changed then you could start a poll to see how many people agree
Nah I dont care that much ;D Just giving my opinion :)
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I agree that this isn't a perfect system, but it was the most perfect we could come up with. What would be really cool is if we could separate every bow into a category that perfectly describes the type of bow it is. We could have a selfbow category for white woods, one for heartwoods and one for exotics because there is absolutely a difference. Then we would separate the snakeskin backed bows according to thickness of the skin because one kind could work better to hold down splinters. It would be a lot easier to vote also since we would have 35 bows in 35 categories and since each bow would be by itself it would be the best in that category.
BOM started with one category. As it evolved we added a second category because of the number of bows. The categories were separated along some imaginary line in an attempt to give every bow a chance, to put them in categories with bows they could be reasonably compared with. We are trying not to compare apples and oranges, but we have a basket that also includes grapefruit, pomegranates, tangerines, and kiwi. I'm not trying to patronize anyone, but you can see that there would be issues with any system. We encourage everyone with ideas on how to improve BOM to speak up, but please don't take it personal if it is decided that your idea is not practical. The funny thing is that voting is still a personal choice that is very subjective. The bows that perform the best or the bows that are the most primitive often loose out so all the categories in the world still leave it as a personal preference.
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I'm sort of with Jesse, because most bows fall into only 3 categories not 35 or so. There are self bows, backed bows (anything glued to the back for protection, power, or what ever reason) and laminate or composition bows that are made of various and usually dissimilar material. Just about every bow will fall into one of those 3 categories.
I like to carve my bows, and some on the site dont even consider them "real" bows. They are though, they pull respectable weight, have good longevity, and make what I consider a nice lookin bow. Personaly I dont need a competition to find value in my efforts. I build bows because I like to and choose to. For me, it's that simple. I do like to post them for people to see, but dont believe it's about mines' better than yours, it's about maybe giving folks some ideas.
BOM was set up by the original site folks, so I guess ya got the choice of going along and entering or opting out, no harm....no foul. I will keep making bows I like and hopefully so will everyone else, and bom will get along just fine with the fellas that think it's a cool deal. Doesn't make any sense to keep pouring salt in the cut.....it is what it is.
rich
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now that ya mention it, i wouldn't mind seeing hornbows seperated from wood bows in some way....... oh wait, that's just my insecurity talkin (it does seem like the hornbows SPANK the wood lams every time!) ;) :P >:D
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now that ya mention it, i wouldn't mind seeing hornbows seperated from wood bows in some way....... oh wait, that's just my insecurity talkin (it does seem like the hornbows SPANK the wood lams every time!) ;) :P >:D
Been that way since day one
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now that ya mention it, i wouldn't mind seeing hornbows seperated from wood bows in some way....... oh wait, that's just my insecurity talkin (it does seem like the hornbows SPANK the wood lams every time!) ;) :P >:D
The selfbows always spanked the laminated or backed bows also, that was a significant reason why we divided where we did.
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I'm sort of with Jesse, because most bows fall into only 3 categories not 35 or so. There are self bows, backed bows (anything glued to the back for protection, power, or what ever reason) and laminate or composition bows that are made of various and usually dissimilar material. Just about every bow will fall into one of those 3 categories.
Would that throw snakeskins in with backed bows? It seems that we would be leaving only bare undecorated selfbows in a category by themselves.
That still leaves horn bows with wood multilams, something that doesn't settle well with most of us. It also leaves bows built with stone tools bunched together with machine built bows. I think the biggest request we get is to have a category for ABO bows so we would have to have at least 5 categories and someone would still feel slighted because they didn't like the category they got put in.
Doesn't make any sense to keep pouring salt in the cut.....it is what it is.
rich
Actually, it is what it is for now. The change to two categories was suggested by members so don't think all suggestions aren't considered. We do have to have enough bows to make any idea practical. This month there were only a few laminated/composite/backed bows so splitting doesn't make sense at all. More categories means more time for Josh and more money to print the magazine. The cost of printing would have to be passed along to the subscriber which is something nobody wants to see, especially in this economy.
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i am a newbie to this site.i love making board bows.i do not care what class it is in.i build all my bows by hand tools.josh does a great job an i thank him for his work.ken has helped me alot an i thank him for his knowledge.this is the best place to come for help an meet new people.thnaks alot again for this web site.kink
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Snake only adds looks. I'd put it in with the selfbows. :) Jawge
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Snake only adds looks. I'd put it in with the selfbows. :) Jawge
Thanks George, that is kind of how we figured it. I was just curious because Rich said "(anything glued to the back for protection, power, or what ever reason)."
We call all see how muddy the water is and how impossible it would be to address all the issues to everyones satisfaction. We welcome any suggestions, but it wouldn't make sense to make changes that make Josh's job more difficult unless it significantly improves BOM.
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You are missinterpreting what I was trying to say. I was simply trying to convey that archery bows are generally accepted as falling into those 3 categories, that is self, backed, and composite. That is all. Bows are either self, have a backing attached, or they are a compliation of various different materials. The other point I was trying to make is that the contest as it is, was set up by you guys.....it can be any way you want it to be, everyone knows what the rules are and those who wish to compete can, and those who dont can opt out, nothing more. "....it is what it is". My statement about the salt in the cut was aimed at all the arguements over the same topic when the contest is allways going to be what you fellas say it is.....thats not a comment on right or wrong descisions, just that you make the rules and everyone knows what they are, nothing more
Fellas ya can say what ever you want to....but fact is that a snake skin glued to a bow makes it a backed bow just like silk backed, or linen backed ......I never said it shouldn't be in "self bows" just that it is a backed bow. Just a statement of fact, not a comment on right or wrong.
rich
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goodies, i need goodies !.... i only wish we could bring more people to vote if i remember right the last one had 80 votes or so , thats a tiny percent of 3632 members.
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You are right Rich, neither right or wrong. I was just trying to clarify your feelings, I meant nothing by it. I don't think snake is quite the same as silk, but I also don't think a horn composite is anything like a wood composite. I too think BOM could be improved, I just cant any practical way to do it. That is why we welcome all suggestions.
Ken, that is the dilemma we have tried to resolve for years. The most I ever remember seeing was almost 130 votes in selfbows, and less than 100 in laminates. Of course of the 3600 members, some have only created accounts and never come back, but we have a lot more than 130 members that participate on a regular basis.
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Rich? When you say, "You fellas"' do you mean everybody that voted on how BOM was set up? And Ken, you are right, more people need to vote. But isn't that how life is? Some vote and live with the outcome of the majority of the voters.And some complain about how it comes out, but they didn't take time to vote.
Rich, I will side with you on some snake backings, like Pythons and other exotics. I've seen some tougher than rawhide. I have exotic lizard belly skin that is tougher than most leather.
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I have exotic lizard belly skin that is tougher than most leather.
Hmmm, there is that Australian lizard known as the "land mullet"...could this be????