Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: volarion on August 15, 2010, 02:26:41 pm
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seeing as Imm new I just thought I would get an obligatory probably stupid question out there, is it ever acceptable to use power tools when making a bow??? for instance when roughing out the shape could ou use a table or band saw??? and for that matter could you glue a back to a piece of wood and bend it into place with the glueing itself (after being put ino a shape) making it hold form then cut it into rough shape???
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Yes, yes, and yes.
Really, to each his own. What is acceptable is a matter of personal preference. There is little right and wrong in these questions. Nearly every bowyer here uses a few power tools now and then, especially a band saw and belt sander. Still others (with much more time on their hands) like to work a primitive bow in a primitive way, with hand tools only. And, you will find plenty on this site who use as many power tools as possible, whenever possible to make bows as fast as they can OR because they are just at that stage in life when rasping and drawkniving is physically too difficult to do exclusively.
As anyone with any experience will tell you, however, is that with the speed that power tools brings comes the speed in which you can turn a great stave into firewood.
TEHO,
Doug
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short answer yes. :) I don't think it matters how you achieve your goal either with all stone tools or use of a band saw/belt sander... That's the way most of us make our bows on here. As long as you are using all natural materials and no fiberglass this group will accept it. Granted, you get waaaaaaaay more cool points if you use all stone tools from felling the tree to final tillering/sanding. We are a pretty easy going bunch. :)
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guess we were posting at the same time, Prof. :)
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exactly the same time :P thanks for the help
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I really think for the first few bows you should use mostly hand tools, and not because they are better or more "right" but because it allows you to go slower and make fewer mistakes at least fewer unfixable mistakes. Once you get a hang of the basics then you'll actually appreciate the power tools. The proffesor was exactly right about how quick power tools can ruin a good bow stave/board.
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A good bandsaw will save a lot of time once you become proficient. I use mine a lot when roughing out bows. And for making laminated bows, a power saw, jointer, and belt sander are indispensable.
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A good bandsaw will save a lot of time once you become proficient. I use mine a lot when roughing out bows. And for making laminated bows, a power saw, jointer, and belt sander are indispensable.
No kidding!
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I agree with Nate about hand tools making you go slower. Learning to build wood bows is not only about how to make a bow but also the different properties of different woods and even the same woods as well as different designs that work better with different woods. Learning patience is paramount and hand tools make you work slower but also teach you about the woods and their properties if you allow it to. I know people that can go from stave to shootable bow in 15 minutes or less on a band saw. To me that's no fun. I like unwrapping the bow from inside the stave and you really can't do that with power tools...at least I can't!
I use a band saw and a belt sander. The band saw at the beginning to get the stave to almost bow size. From this point on I use a rasp and a scraper to complete the tillering process. At the very end when everything else is done I use my belt sander to flatten the tips for overlays, to shape tip overlays and to shape handle over and under lays of leather or thin wood slats.
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I like unwrapping the bow from inside the stave ...
Well said. That, to me, is the essence of self bow making. You'll know you're a bowyer when you begin to see the bow in your minds eye as you look at the stave. Sometimes it doesn't work the way you envision it and the wood throws you a curve, but the feeling really is of discovering and releasing the bow, hidden inside the stave. Thanks for reminding me of that. I also agree that slower is better than faster.
George
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Good one. I like it! Let's see I've made at least 200 bows and broken about 100 over the course of 21 years and I've never used a bandsaw on a bow. I do use a power sander. Yes, is the answer to your question. I could and do use power tools on bows. I think you should confine yourself to the use of hand tools until you've made 6 successful bows. I know you didn't want to hear that but that's what I think. My site may help you. :) Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
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I dont mind hearing it :P I was mainly trying to see if anyone had useful advise on the matter and as I see you all do :) thank you (now I gots to go find ou where I can get one of those pull knives :P )
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Go to an "antique" shop, flea market, junk shop, pawn shop or garage sales. The older draw knives are better and way cheaper than the newer ones. IMO. Just be sure the edge is still good and without pits. Pits elsewhere don't matter that much.
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I still do I would say 90% of all of the work on a Stave with Hand Tools...I use a Palm Sander to finish sand....and sometimes a Dremel for the Nocks....
On a Board Bow...I will use the Bandsaw to rough it out...and the Palm Sander and Dremel Tool still...but I still use my Rasps and Drawknives on Boards
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I've always had problems with draw knifes on boards. I prefer planes on boards and draw knifes on staves.
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Got to get the cutting edge right ...I have Stave Drawknives....and Board Drawknives....and when the Board gets to bossy....I break out the Sureform......... >:D
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Are the bevels different? Sharpness difference?
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I keep the Bevel the same...but the Edge is a lot keener on the Board Knife....might have something to do with the fact that my Board ....Knife is also not a Flat Blade either......it's Crescernt Shaped
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Power tools are great for certain stages of bow making. Especially in 90+ degree summer heat. I use the bandsaw for roughing out the bow and the belt sander to get it to floor tiller stage. After that, it is all scrapers and files. Check your local craigslist site for deals on used tools. I bought some tools new, and some older used ones. The older used ones are of better quality than the new ones, and a lot cheaper.
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Jeff, turn the board around and attack it from the other direction or turn yourself around Jawge
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Hi there Jeff, I use many tools powered and hand, I agree with( pat b) In the beginning it is best to stick to hand tools as much as possible to truely learn the trade.Today I worked with my draw shave, chasing a ring on a nice osage stave. I did use a band saw to cut out the bow shape. But the tiller and final touches will all be done by hand .Denny
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Jeff, turn the board around and attack it from the other direction or turn yourself around Jawge
LMAOROTF........... ;D
Atta Boy Jawge.......... ;)
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If I am working board bows or laminated wood bows I use the power tools. If I have a nice stave I will often use nothing but hand tools. Sometimes I rough it out a bit on a bandsaw. I started off going for speed but have reverted back to just taking my time and enjoying the journey, the finished bow will likley just end up in a stack with a bunch of other ones anyway. Steve
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I really think for the first few bows you should use mostly hand tools, and not because they are better or more "right" but because it allows you to go slower and make fewer mistakes at least fewer unfixable mistakes. (...)
...and the beginning bowyer will be able to understand better what he's actually doing.
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I use band saw and belt sander about like PatB. Scraper and rasp for the tillering. You can do just as good a job for sure with hand tools only,and like others have said it's a good idea to start that way,you can ruin a lot of wood with power tools till you learn what you are doing. :)
Pappy
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i like rocks ;D
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i like rocks ;D
;D ;D ;D
My first three bows were made with all hand tools, not even good ones mind you, and in fact, I didn't even have a decent table... hang on a minute, I didn't even have a vice to hold the darn things! Those three bows are trash (two are broken and in the corner of shame), but I learned more from rasping those staves to bows than I've learned in all the successful bows since then combined. Had I started out with a nice shop full of power tools... :-\
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Makin bows aint no different than any other type of woodworking in this respect; the object is to remove unwanted wood to arrive at your end product (dont matter if that is furniture, art sculpture, or bows). The other fellas were trying to convey a sense of "gettin in touch with the wood" and that is also true. working with it is way better than fighting it.
Having said that I really believe that if the ancients had access to bandsaws, power sanders and the like they would have readily and with great glee accepted them with open arms. They were making tools not "pretties" and efficiency makes survival a whole lot easier. Since this bow making for us is a hobby and not survival ya can go about it anyway that pleases you. The use of a power tool doesn't necessarily mean that you dont have a "feel" for what you are doing either. One of the true joys of any woodworking endeavor is the "hands-on" feel, but that doesn't mean that power tools are the devils seed either.
I think that you ought to go at it with the desire to do it......and use whatever ya got to get the job done. The real enjoyment is in the satisfaction of what ya made with your hands, not so much what the hands were holding when ya did it.
PS: The main diff between hand tools and power tools is that hand tools go to the work and require the hands to be off the stock, and power tools require ya to hold the stock and go to the tool, so for old cripled up people power tools allow for some enjoyment that hands tools would not allow, also a sharp hand tool can take wood off faster and cleaner than sander anyday. JMO
rich
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Mostly hand tools here :)
My next door neighbour has a bandsaw but i am next to useless with it and have ruined a few staves trying.
Power saws scare me to death and most other tools are just too noisy. I like to chill and listen to the radio whilst playing with bows but then i am only making the odd one or two for my self and friends so i dont have to rush.
I would like to get used to power tools one day but at the moment i dont really need them and
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Power tools are a good thing, however even though I would consider myself very proficient at using them I still opt to use hand tools on wood that I've not worked before just to help me "learn" the wood. For instance I've just started on a great redbud stave but I've never worked redbud before so I have drawn the profile down with a drawknife just to let me know how the wood responds to things like changing direction of pull with the knife and such, so when I get closer to final tiller I know how much I can push the wood with my tools so as not to make a big mistake later on. The next Redbud stave I do I will be using the bandsaw on though!
Mark
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My personal opinion is that any tool has it's place.
I use the tool that does the job and that I like to use. Sometimes this will mean that a bow is made with just an axe, other times I'll use a power tool.
Perhaps for some people bow making can be almost like a religion with wrongs and rights they feel very strongly about and power tools equals "sin". On the opposite side for some it is a business and handle tools are a fools errand and inefficient.
There's room enough for all views I hope.
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wow so many eplies :D
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Alot of good replies,and i see truth in all of em.
Heres my take on things.If a person wants to make "Primitive" bows,they should use "Primitive" methods and tools,especially,if they want to advertise them as being primitive.If not,then if other methods are used,then they are primitive "Style".If haveing that "Primitive" lable doesnt matter to someone,then anything goes and shure,its allright to use power tools or otherwise modern methods.Some people just like to make,Wood bows or Organic bows or just bows,and arent concerned with any Term of specific origin.I say have at it then.I just dont like power tools because,i cant stand the noise.LOLI like my bow makeing to be relaxing and i cant relax with all that ruckus goin on.
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Sure helps if ya have chronic ;D fatigue
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Automate just as much as you feel the need and your pocketbook will allow. But keep in mind that there's no bow out there that can't be built with just a few simple tools from a sharp piece of flint to high priced bandsaw, the choice is yours. Enjoy!
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Jamie's response made me laugh, "I like rocks".
Next year I plan on doing an entire bow starting with a knappable rock and a hammerstone. It's part of the whole learning experience and adds fuel to the fire in my belly.
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as soon as i get my camera back im gonna do another stone tool build along.
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wow so many eplies :D
so many bow makers...
If we were to be completely open, honest and expressive, every person that frequents this bow forum would share a different story, different perspective, different conclusion. Most would have similar elements, otherwise they would not be on this site. We are much more alike than we could ever be different (at least in bow making).
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Go to MOJam and look for the biggest pile of osage scrap. It will be piled around the bandsaw.
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When I first stared making bows I wanted to do a bow strictly by primitive methods. Had a knapper friend make me some tools of stone and I went at it. Was actually surprised at how fast i made a serviceable bow. The main thing is I satisfied my desire to do so. Last i heard it's still a free country, do what you want to do as far as tools, primitive or electric. This craft is a personal one. I do it to satisfy my love of working with wood. I use a bandsaw a lot. It saves time and sweat, especailly now with the temps in the 90's and the humidity right there also. And if the notion strikes me I've still got the rock tools handy. I like the recent post about the scraps around the bandsaw at Mojam. It says it all. SW
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Im really loving all the different replies Im getting also he different ways of thought help me get a feel for what "should" and "shouldnt" be done (as far as making a bow britle etc)
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Well, I'm pretty late to this party, and what everyone else has said pretty much covers it, but I can give you a tiny bit of my own experience. As a beginner with maybe a dozen board bows under my belt, including a couple in the corner of shame (when did that show up?! :o), I started out with all hand tools, because that's all I had, and I wanted to make sure I like this well enough to keep doing it (shaa, right!). As someone with no wood working skills or experience, it made me pay attention to the wood, and what it wanted to do. I've since added a belt sander, which I use a little bit more with each bow, and I'm lusting after a band saw, but till that day comes, my plane works just fine.
I just started working on my first osage stave, and amazingly, when you rasp and file down through the dry, tough sapwood and hit the heartwood beneath, the sound and feel of the tool in your hand changes, from a dead, choked, fuzzy exertion, to a singing skating sensation as the tool glides across the harder wood. And, of course, there's the sight of that beautiful golden grain appearing under your hand with every stroke of the tool.
One way's not better than the other, that's just where my head is these days :D.
If you haven't yet actually picked up a tool, there may still be time to run away, but I suspect that it's far to late for that, so welcome to our collective addiction!
Frode
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"I just started working on my first osage stave, and amazingly, when you rasp and file down through the dry, tough sapwood and hit the heartwood beneath, the sound and feel of the tool in your hand changes, from a dead, choked, fuzzy exertion, to a singing skating sensation as the tool glides across the harder wood. And, of course, there's the sight of that beautiful golden grain appearing under your hand with every stroke of the tool."
I know what you mean Frode. I have to say that I love the bow Ipe makes but I can't stand working it. On the other hand working with osage is such a beautiful thing. It truly is a joy running a scraper over that yellow gold and the way a shaving curls up. It makes me giddy.
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I can't answer for bows, but I can for arrows. I don't use power tools for arrows because:
a.) I'm in an townhouse and no room for power tools.
b.) Too cheap to buy power tools for something I can do with hand tools.
Yes, a Tru-Center taper tool isn't exactly "primitive" as I'm not aware of any that are archaelogical artifacts. But, boy, when tapering ash shafts with it, you sure can get your exercise in hand strength!
There's other things to consider besides power tools:
1.) Did you use electric lights while making the bow with stone tools? Subtract ten points for that. ;D
2.) Did you use electric heat or gas heat while making the bow with stone tools?
I dunno. The major point is making the bow and shooting it. Anyone who can make a bow, power tools or not, is doing something majorly outstanding in my book! I have yet to make a bow myself. Someone who has the skill to turn out a selfbow or backed bow, those guys are ntrue craftsmen no matter what tools they use!
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To this day I still haven't used a drawknife or a scraper to make a bow. I think I might get some just to hang on the wall. ;D
Yes, power tools are OK. My favorites are sanding tools: belt sander, disc sander, orbital sander, etc....
Someday I will make a bow with stone tools. But for now, I do like the power tools, especially for kids bows and gift bows. For my own bows, I like to take my time, however.
When I got a bandsaw I thought, "Yeah, this works OK, but it's kinda boring". When I finally made the investment in the best bandsaw blades I could buy and took the time to fine tune the saw, I said to myself:
"DANG!! THIS IS THE GREATEST TOOL EVER INVENTED BY MANKIND!".
Man, what a difference a good tool makes! :)
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I've made bows with the whole spectrum from sharp rocks to power tools, and enjoyed the process every way I've done it so far. I do find that the part of bowmaking that I enjoy least is roughing out a stave and getting rid of all that excess wood that was inconsiderate enough to grow around my bow. I absolutely love that bandsaw for getting all the excess off, then I enjoy using my handtools to actually make the bow once I get it roughed out.
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The only problem with power tools is that they remove wood quick, fast and easy and that's great for the expert who knows where that bow lies. Not so good for the beginner who most likely take off too much wood too fast. That's why I said beginners should use hand tools for a few bows. It's not a matter of what is appropriate or not. Jawge
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...the part of bowmaking that I enjoy least is roughing out a stave and getting rid of all that excess wood that was inconsiderate enough to grow around my bow.
That's the part I enjoy most. Tillering is work to me, but the rough out stage is where my joy flows. Pity we live so far apart...we'd have a pretty good partnership.