Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: FlintWalker on October 28, 2010, 12:52:57 am
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I live in Southern Ky and pine trees are non existent around here. If you see any, someone planted them.
Without pine trees what did native man use as pitch for mounting points and such?
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Hi Sawfiler many people dont know that BIRCH PITCH is another form of adhesive used it is simple to make and can be made anywhere at anytime. It turns black and u can make it up ahead of time. Use it the same as pine pitch. Hey how u been my friend gimme a shout!
Russ
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shannon i believe most any tree sap can be made into pitch. i could be wrong though,it happens on occaison ;D )
birch pitch is good stuff
palio folks used it to seal canoes etc.
AA76,we were typing at the same time ;)
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LOL Sailor ur right about some trees being used for pitch but one other thing to remember when paleo groups traveled and traded amongst themselves. They would travel hundreds of miles to get such things as flint...perhaps amongst their travels the aquired there pine pitch along their way.
Russ
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Doing pretty good Russ :)
Ain't no Birch trees around here either...just eastern hardwoods.
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What about maple, I hear they make a sticky sap. It sure works for sticking the fork to my hand. ;D
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Shannan:
You got any Eastern Red Cedar in them parts?
The pitch out of them will make good glue. Very similar to pine pitch.
It is harder to collect in any quantity. But if you got nothing else....
David
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Oh yea, we got maple and LOTS of ERC. The sap from it is very sticky but there's never much of it. I just figured since they didn't "leak" as much as pine that it wouldn't be enough.
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For those of us fortunate.....if that's how you want to look at the stupid things....enough to hae pine trees...can ya take a machete or something and give them a good whack and come back a few days later and collect?....assuming spring or fall would be the better times for this. I know Ive seen sap before I ever wanted any, on injured pines, didn't know if that was a good way to injure them or not.
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Yep, or just watch going through town for trees that have been pruned. The ones that are mowed around a good too, innevitably somebody's going to hit one with the mowing deck.
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It usually takes a couple of months to get a good quantity of sap. If you trim a branch off you can come back and get the sap later.
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Shannon sounds like u live in a Tundra or a maybe a swamp...or a desert..lol Whos to say thousand years agao there werent any confierous trees in KY maybe they used hide glue...curious to think about u making ur PINETREE points which come from there but yet there are none! ??? ??? ??? Is this a subliminal message sent from the ancient ones!
Russ
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Shannon, do you have any spruce? Try that. ;)
Wayne
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Shannon, go to the "Trading Post" and ask for pitch. I'd bet you could trade some improved debitage for some pitch. ;D
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Shannon, go to the "Trading Post" and ask for pitch. I'd bet you could trade some improved debitage for some pitch. ;D
Oh I don't need any Pat...I just wanna know ???
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I've been wanting to try fruit tree pitch or other tree pitch but haven't. I'm sure most would make good varnish but I wonder whether they will make good glue.
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Pat I will try it and post how I do. First time for any pitch so I have no experience.
Looking forward to shooting my first bamboo and stone point arrow, up to now been Eastons.
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I am from Western Ky and Pines are not native to that area fer sure. Where they got their Pitch? I don't know, but they did have it. I found some Archaic points along the banks of the Tenn. River and they had Pitch all over em. These were quite old points with multiple basal fluting and the lobes of the base were highly ground. They also had a lot of serations very much like Kirk arrowheads. I was only about 8 miles from where the Tenn. dumps into the Mississippi river. Would have been easy to traveled to where some pines were native. I know a lot of travelin was goin on. I also found a crestent bannerstone, made from green porphery, which I believe was from the Carolina area, also a banded slate tube bannerstone. No banded slate source close to that area that I know of. I am sure goods traveled between different peoples.
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When I lived in coastal SC a friend found an 8" obsidian blade coming out the bank along the Colleton River in Beaufort county in an area that is rich in artifacts. There is no natural rock in that area of SC much less obsidian...but lots of long leaf yellow pines! ;D
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Oh yea, we got maple and LOTS of ERC. The sap from it is very sticky but there's never much of it. I just figured since they didn't "leak" as much as pine that it wouldn't be enough.
I cut a cedar branch for a stave a month ago or so and the other day I took a look at it. There was a small glob of sap at every place I'd cut off a twig or branch. It would be tedious, but if all those were collected and put together it might be enough to process and use for a point? It is certainly sticky enough. I'll bet it was used.
Maple sap has a much more important use as far as I'm concerned. That used to be a hobby of mine when I lived in the north. I miss it. :(
George
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The Native Americans traveled all over the place, trading beads, flint, hides and who knows what else. They gathered pitch where they found it. They would travel long distance to get maple sugar and to hunt. They were not isolated to an area for sure. I'm sure other glues were also available including hide or animal glues.
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Shannon, there are five different species of pine native to Kentucky. I've been in areas just northeast of you where there are loads of white pines, pitch pines, and Virginia pines. Anywhere you get into the more mountainy areas, they're there. Looks like you live in the least piny-est part of the state, though. The tree mix may be a bit different than it was hundreds of years ago before much of the land was cleared. And I'm sure that if people traveled from here down into Tennessee, KY, and central NC to get flint (I find points here made from TN chert, Ky chert, and NC rhyolite,) that they would have went a couple counties over to get pine pitch and other things they needed. They could have used hide glue or something else, too. I remember Scott Jones (I think) talking at the Schiele Museum knap-in a couple years ago about persimmon pitch, birch tar, and stuff like that used as hafting mastics. I have an old book that has a bunch of descriptions from early explorers and traders about how the Indians made bows and arrows. Several times, they described arrow heads being hafted with sinew and a glue made from the velvet from deer antlers. Fish glue is also mentioned. Interestingly, pine pitch is never mentioned for hafting points.
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Cant you use sweetgum pitch also?
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All trees have pitch or sap. My brother lived in KY near Lexingtion. I was amazed at the lack of trees in general. Come to find out that a good part of the state was cleared for farming, etc. I can't imagine living without pines. Jawge
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LOL JAWGE do u think that there were ever any Pines growing there ever??? Perhaps they were all cut down for farming or perhaps for lumber. I feel bad for the guy who used to live in the North and making maple syrup... its all over here where I live. Im with Jawge I cant imagine not having pine trees. Pat I never thought of using fruit tree sap...
Russ
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Yes, I don't know. LOL. Here's a link. Jawge
http://www.biology.eku.edu/kos/kyflorafauna.html
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I think many cultures did not use any tree pitch as hafting or any other glue type. There are other substances.
Fish glue and rawhide/sinew glue is common. In Australia the aboriginal people there used spinifex glue extensively. Spinifex is a spiky type of grass.
I would think that early peoples would use different types of glue that suited their area. The native inhabitants of the Kalahara desert in Africa don't have Pine trees for sure and I don't know what glue they use, but they must use something (maybe spinifex again as it is a marginal desert plant). Did innuits use pitch?
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Not all native americans used pitch to secure arrow heads. Some just used sinew. Some just used pitch and some used both pitch and sinew. People use what they have to hand to do the job then need to do, just like we do nowadays.
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i experimented with some staghorn sumac glue. it takes while to set up but once it does it is strong. I will bet you have some of that growing there in the deep south. A question to tag along here. Any one ever experiment with eastern red cedar or baldcypress? both have a sticky sap.
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I know in the north east were Im from, most of the pines were logged during the turn of the century. I live in Pennsylvania, which used to be known as the black forest because of the dark pine woods, but now its all regrowth maples, oaks, ash and such. I cant say for sure but there may have been pines in your area traditionally. Sad to think about really.
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It has been said that the Kentucky natives were a softer breed of Injun, much like the men that live there today. They not only didn't have pine but the small, gentle, womanish hands of those fellars made it difficult to make pitch so then ventured south to Tennessee where a much tougher breed of Injun lived. In Tennessee the Indians didn't need trees at all. They chewed tobacco and it was said that they were so tough that they could chew a little tobacco and spit it on a rock in the sun. Mix a little ground up sinew in it and stir it with a stick - man made pitch. The Kentucky softies as they were known would trade skins and later toilet paper which they invented due to their delicate backsides for the pitch. And that's how it all happened. ;D ;D ;D
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Jimmy I thought that is how it was but I didn't want to say anything! ;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Jawge sorry for not getting back to u thanks for the post on KY species some good info!!!
Russ
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Sweetgum has good sap for it.
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Jawge sorry for not getting back to u thanks for the post on KY species some good info!!!
Russ
KY? what do you fellers in America use your sap for?
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Kentucky ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D sorry, Wally. ;)
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A little reading for people interested in the mystery of where the pine trees went...
http://www.fws.gov/carolinasandhills/longleaf.html (http://www.fws.gov/carolinasandhills/longleaf.html)
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Hey Shannon,
I don't think pine sap glue is necessary for mounting stone points onto arrows. It helps, but it isn't absolutely necessary. I've mounted points without pine sap glue and the sinew was plenty strong enough for that. However, I'm sure they could have gotten it through trade from other tribes farther south.
Also, I have seen sap from the Black Cherry tree that has oozed out of mature trees and dried....and it is VERY hard. When fresh it is like clear or amber jelly and it's very soft. But when it dries it's rock hard like epoxy, and although I've never tried it I would like to get some, heat it up, and try melting it and using it to mount points. It just might work. Something to try...