Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Pat B on December 06, 2010, 04:59:33 pm
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Why do I always do this to myself? ::) ...working a difficult stave with only a short time to make it happen.
I put about 2 hours into this stave yesterday to get where it is now. I only have one problem spot that really concerns me and that is the kink in the limb. I will use heat to reflex the stave(it is deflexed now) and maybe a little for other issues but when I pull a string from tip to tip it passes over a portion of the handle so I hope I don't have to do too much.
The kink in that one limb kinda concerns me but I may just leave it be and work around it. This stave does have a little prop twist but most of that will be removed when I reflex it.
It's gonna be a fun one to work on and since it is going to a very special person I want to do the best i can. I'm open to suggestions if anyone is interested.
The last 2 pics shows the kinked area as does the back and belly pics.
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That is beyond me!!! how to make a bow out of that piece of wood... good luck though.. you've got to be a wizard to make bows like that. maybe you are???
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Pat, I have straightened one a little by clamping on it's side to a long board. Then heating it and slowly tightening the clamp pulled some of the kink out. Just do a little at a time and give it time to rehydrate.
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I will have to take that kink slow and incrimentally. Hope I have time! ;D
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You have your work cut out for yourself Pat. I might get the feel for it better if I could handle the wood but can't tell too much from the photos. Good Luck and if any one can pull it off you probably would be the one to do it. Anxious to hear advice from the other top bowyers and see the results of your labor. Kenneth
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pat i've tried to work out a kink like that before. i believe you'll be better off making the adjustment over the entire limb and a little on the other limb as well. i do like mullet said and put the side against a 2x4 and heat the limb inches at a time and slowly crank down on the clamp. takes a good hour per limb. Shoot, that doesn't look like much work for you though! ;)
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The kink is the only part that I'm concerned about. If push comes to shove there might just be a rigid kink in the limb when done. ;)
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I agree with sulphur. You need to adjust the whole limb not just the kink or it will crack there almost certainly. I've trouble with tight waves in the grain like that before.
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I don't think I've ever tried a stave with that violent a kink in it. I'd try to take it out if it were me, but I'd probably fail and ruin the stave. Good luck, I'll bet you can do it.
George
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I have cut the back profile and reduced the limbs to about 5/8" thick then started with an initial straightening. One limb at a time until I get everything lined up better. I got some of the twist out of the one limb and brought it somewhat in line with the handle, but it needs more. I haven'tr attempted to work on the limb with the kink yet. ;D ::)
The last pic shows the results of the first straightening session.
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So, are you just clamping it down and leaving it for awhile or are you using a heat gun too?
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Why would anyone want to remove such a nice character kink? ;D I'd just go for making adjustments to get the tips in line with the handle and let the kink stay. Like you said, work with the wood. ;) More work in them character staves but worth it when you can pull it off. I think your the man for the job Pat. ;)
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Snag, I coated the wood with olive oil and used a heat gun while clamping. Just clasmping it cold wouldn't do anything but maybe make it lift a splinter.
Keenan, I need to get the deflex out and some of the twist but I want to keep as much character as possible. I pulled a string from tip to tip on the original stave and it hit just inside the handle area so it isn't that much out of whack. ;) I appreciate your input and any advise you want to send my way. 8)
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Looking good Pat. I need to get back into bow making. Boo has a better looking bow than me now. I have to make a new one, or get you to build me one. >:D
By the way Boo's and Brits new bows are outstanding.
TJ
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I've been bending bows in the handles lately in order to make the tips track. It takes the tiniest adjustments in the handle to get the tips to move a whole two inches!!! So far I have yet to get much luck getting a whole limb to bend on a flatbow.
That stick has character...and in SPADES! Nice stick, Pat.
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Dang you Keenan. You have got me on a whole new train of thought. ::) I'm gonna tweek the other limb just a little bit and start tillering. See if I can't tiller that bugger into submission. ;D
TJ, all I need is time...but it is at a premium these days...as you very well know! ;) I was very pleased with the way Bobby and Britny's bows came out and extra pleased they will be loved...and used! 8)
JW, the handle has a slight crescent shape to it now. I'm hoping to work that into the bow somehow. I'll just have to take baby steps and see where they take me. I've got til Christmas! ::)
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Here is where I am today. Clamped the stave tp the form and began heating to remove the deflex. I also took out the hump(from back to belly) where the kink is. It is now just a dog leg. ;D From here on out I will tiller the bow with maybe a bit of heat tweeking later on. We'll just havr to see.
I didn't get a before pic before clamping but scroll back to see what it looked like before. Here she is clamped to the form...
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...and after the clamps came off. The wood wedge is where the hump was., pic from both sides.
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Lookin good PAt
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I'm very impressed. Not only did you take out the kink but nary a scorch. Makes me think I've burned some pretty good bow wood in the fireplace I thought was too crooked. That's looking very good.
George
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Dang you Keenan. You have got me on a whole new train of thought. ::) I'm gonna tweek the other limb just a little bit and start tillering. See if I can't tiller that bugger into submission. ;D
TJ, all I need is time...but it is at a premium these days...as you very well know! ;) I was very pleased with the way Bobby and Britny's bows came out and extra pleased they will be loved...and used! 8)
JW, the handle has a slight crescent shape to it now. I'm hoping to work that into the bow somehow. I'll just have to take baby steps and see where they take me. I've got til Christmas! ::)
;D ;D Glad to help Pat. >:D That is looking very nice. Can't wait to see how she turns out. Going to be a nice character bow! ;)
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looks tricky Pat. Im sure you can pull it off though. Your shop looks like mine--------Im building a new one now----------I think it will be faster than cleaning the old one :D
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Watch out Jesse. Before you know it the new shop well look like the old...just bigger! ;D I could probably throw away 90% of what's in my basement and never miss it but what fun is that. ;D
Me too Keenan. I'm looking forward to that first shot. That tells all!
I did a trade bow on TradGang last winter and had to manipulate the heck out of it with dry heat(and oil). It is thin ringed osage with knots so I backed it with rawhide just cause... It turned out real nice. I think all the heating(and maybe the manipulating) actually strengthens the bow and gave it a lot more zip than I expected. It may end up being one of those surprise... :o...bows we have all learned to fear. ;D
Now that both limbs have almost equal reflex with even curvature it will be easier to see tiller but she will still have plenty of character. I will try to get a bunch of reduction and tillering done this weekend. Looks like foul weather so should be plenty of basement time after the honey-do Christmas clean up is done! ::) ...well maybe. ::)
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You gotta love a workshop covered in yellow! Looking good Pat.
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Looking good Pat, I have worked some like that and had to tweak the a dozen time before it was all said and done,lot of trouble ,but what fun would it be to work on a clean straight piece of wood. ;) ;D ;D
Pappy
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You gotta love a workshop covered in yellow! Looking good Pat.
Sure agree there. Anybody else have work clothes that have taken on a distinctive yellow hue??? ;)
Isn't clean&straight and osage an oxymoron??? ;D
George
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Wow Pat, that stave is really looking a lot better I can see a bow in there now. You must be very patient with the heat gun, mine always get darkwell before I get them real hot thru and thru. Maybe I need to rig up something to hold the heat gun further away and go off and drink coffee or read P.A. threads for about an hour. Good luck. Kenneth
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Kenneth, that why I use oil for these early heatings. Not only does it help prevent scorching but I think it helps to hold more heat in the wood and helps it spread the heat more evenly. From beginning to end each limb probably only takes 1/2hour to 45 minutes. It helps to have your clamps and pads ready when that area is heated. After I have worked out the limb and have it clamped I go back over the entire limb and reheat it before I let it cool over night.
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Yep I use the oiul also but must get a bit impatient and get the heat gun too close. Kenneth
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I keep my gun close(1" or less sometimes) but keep it moving constanly over a 6" area or so. I also feel the wood with my thumb(an old outboard mechanic's trick) and when it is too hot to keep my thumb on I know it's about ready(when an outboard got over 168 deg it was overheating). As I move to the next area I overlap the heat with the last area so the heat travels consistantly through the wood.
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I was thinking of you today Pat. I spent a little time heat treating some dips and dives in a Mountain Mahogany stave. I think this one is going to take several sessions as well. Did you get to work on that one today or were you out chasing critters?
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Keenan, I've got her bending pretty good and hope to go to low brace tomorrow. I'm looking forward to that and seeing what I'm dealing with. I think I'm gonna have to narrow the width a bit so I don't run out of thickness but she is still holding plenty of weight.
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;D ;D ;D
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I got a string on her today at low brace. The string stretched a bit so it lays just over the handle. The tiller is looking pretty good. The kink is on the left limb right at the cinder block joint. I will need to adjust the string track a bit it seems but so far I'm satisfied with how it is going.
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Looking good Pat, Tiller looking good so far and a little more tweeking and you'll be in line. Well at least the string might be in line. >:D Those are some nice looking growth rings on that stave.
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Sometimes I leave the string right on the edge like that so it's sort-of "center shot". Do you guys ever do that, or is there a reason not to?
George
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George I've done that on some bows but on this one I want it as centered as possible because of the other isseus this bow has. I still have enough meat at the handle and the tips to make adjustments there too.
Keenan, The growth rings are pretty nice but the early rings are almost as big but not quite.
I have the non-kinked limb clamped and heated to begin the string allignment. Once it cools I'll low brace the bow and see where the string lies then. The handle area is in a crescent shape so that adds to the confusion too.
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I see a lot of people heat limbs to get lateral adjustments to string tracking. In effect, you are bending at the thickest point to get adjustments. I usually heat the handle section and make small adjustments to bring the string into alignment. Am I on the cutting edge of new technology doing this? Or am I doing something that is risky/dangerous?
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For me, bending the handle is harder because the wood is so much thicker and takes longer to get hot enough to bend. It isn't as hard to get heat all the way through the thinner bow limb. Once you get it hot it will bend laterally just fine. It does bend easier in the reflex/deflex direction for sure. A side benefit to the lateral bend is it makes the limb snakey looking and I like that. If you don't scorch the wood, I don't think a handle bend would be risky, but I've only done it once. If I could, I'd leave the handle oversize, heat and bend it, and then take it to final dimensions. Any time I mess with the handle by heating it or splicing it I wrap the whole handle with thread to strengthen it.
George
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John, the handle is so much thicker than the rest of the bow I think it would take too much heat to get it to bend. There is a bend in the handle anyway that I want to incorperate in the bow. Once I do a final shape on the handle I mat tweak it a bit if still necessary
I did a little bit of alignment on the "other" limb. After it cooled I braced the bow and that might be all I need for now. The string isn't perfect but much better than before.
No work for me tomorrow so I'll do a little more then.
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Looking good so far to me. :)
Pappy
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i think you got that one on the downhill now Pat, great pics and teaching . looking forward to the end results.
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Yes, I really like the setup you use for straightening a stave. That's much better than just trying to eyeball the bends. I need to set up something like that too. Thanks for showing it.
George
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Would you consider steaming the handle section for the final phase of the straightening process?
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Gary, I don't like to use steam on already dry wood. Plus, I can get it hotter with dry heat and oil. Steam only gets to 212deg(F)
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ive been watching you build this bow clsely mr pat. ive been curiousabout your form that you use to heat in reflex. what you made it of, pine 2x4, spruce ,some type of hardwood like oak perhaps? ive also been curious about the elyptical shape, how did you arrive on that shape? im a carpenter , and know how to make an elipse by using a mathimatical formula. does this work for bows or is it different. or did you just eyeball it? ive also been wondering when you use oil on the limbs, do you just apply the oil on the belly side or on all sides? do you use the tin foil over the form as a sheild to keep oil from dripping on your form? just been very curious!!! ruddy
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Ruddy, My forms are made from whatever scrap I have laying around. Nothing special. The one form I use to add backest to each limb at a time is actually tiger stripe maple. It was a scrap from a Showcase my friend made for me to display Native American artifacts. The shape was accidental but works very well. ;D
When I use oil I use it on the belly and sides only. I never try to heat the back if I can help it. All of my forms have oil in and on them. Doesn't seem to hurt anything. I sometimes use alum foil to hold in heat on difficult bending projects when extra heating is needed but not to protect the form.
As far as the eliptical shape, I eyeball it. It is the shape that is most attractive to my eye. Math was never my strong suit! ;D You can see how I brought the limb bend right up to the handle. I work that portion of the limb last after the rest of the limb is bending well.
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Didn't have a chance to work on the bow for the last few days but I did this morning. ;D Here she is at low brace and at about 14" of draw. The string tracks pretty good so far. She is pulling about 45#(target weight)@22" heading for 24". I have now tapered the limb tips(not final) and began heat treating the belly and inducing some backset on the kinked limb and took out a little twist too. I'll do the other limb later today after this limb cools completely. Then the shaping of the handle which will be a little difficult because of the side ways curvature. After that, final sanding then she goes to the make up room. ;) Not quite sure what she will wear yet but I'm sure she will be purdy! ;D
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Looking good!
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I heat treated the other limb this afternoon and clamped it in reflex. It had already been straightened. I'll take a pic of the results tonight or tomorrow. Then give her a few days to rehydrate(Just so happens it is raining), maybe shape the handle and tips.
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Looking good Pat! ;)
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She's coming along nicely, Keenan.I'll be shooting her in a few days. 8) This has been a fun one!!!
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This is the other limb(probably the bottom) after heat treating and reflexing. I'll let her rest a few days before stressing her.
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Real nice work so far,... interesting to see it worked up step by step with the jig.
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Been following this one very close. You have been making this a nice informative build. I have a real snakey floor tillered osage with some propeller twist. One day I'll get brave enough to tackle it :-\
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Looking good Pat, You have came a long way,that should be sweet.Can't wait to see here finished up. :)
Pappy
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Looks sweet Pat.
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Thanks guys. These kind of bows will make or break you. ;D Actually they will give you lots of confidence if they work out well.
Thanks TJ.
Pappy, I think I'll do a "before" and "after" shot when done. Should make a cool comparison.
Hillbilly, when you start, go slow and think about every move before you make it but also look 2 or 3 steps ahead to be sure you are on the right track.
1776J, baby steps!... and patience helps!
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Hillbilly, when you start, go slow and think about every move before you make it but also look 2 or 3 steps ahead to be sure you are on the right track.
1776J, baby steps!... and patience helps!
Sounds like shooting a game of pool ;D I've been saving it till I learn a little more patients, of which my wife says I run out of to quickly ::) Maybe I should just put this one in my will for someone ;D
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The stave will teach you patience if you allow it to. It will never get done if you don't do it!!!
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That is looking sweet Pat. Shaping up to be a very nice bow there. Someone is going to be very blessed. ;) You have also put together a great buildalong for a character bow. Maybe we should move this over to the archives when your done. I also liked your comment about "the make up room" It always puzzles me when people spend the times to shape out, tiller and get a bow shooting. then don't take the time to dress it up. Can't wait to see her after the "make up" ;)
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I haven't had a chance to work on her in the last few days. I need to get her done and on her way. I don't think she will be at her destination by Christmas but hopefully shortly after. I don't have much to do but at least 4 or 5 days for finish work.
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FRET!!! >:( :(
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O no! Hope it isn't terminal. :(
George
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Unfortunately I think it is terminal. The fret is in the crook. I will try to repair it and shoot it plenty but I'm not real hopeful. I do have another something I can send out so I'm OK there.
She was looking so good. I shaped the tips and added overlays. Added leather on the back of the handle and shaped it and the handle area and was doing finish sanding when I found the fret. Haven't strung the bow in 3 days so this happened before. I am glad it happened now and not later but I'm still bummed. :(
Here she is. I heated the fretted area and added super glue but a better patch will be necessary if she is to survive.
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Oh no,,,,,,, Hope she holds for ya Pat, Do ya think you can save her with a patch? Don't overlook the possibility of saving the one limb for a splice or take down, if she dose blow. Got my fingers crossed for ya. ;)
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Keenan, I think the leverage at that crook will be too much for it. I will study it and see if there is a chance. Walt Francis on TradGang suggested saving the one good limb too.
I was so looking forward to finishing this bow and sending if off. It was gonna be for Lulyn! :( I have a back-up gift but I wanted this to happen. :(
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To bad Pat,but it happens on those type bows sometimes,I have patched them before with
pretty good success,Real thin piece of Osage,just have to be sure that it is thin enough to bend a little to start with or they will usually pop off.Good luck. :) I with the others on saving one limb for a take down. I may even have a limb that will match up pretty good,had problems more than once myself. :) ;) ;)
Pappy
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Oh Pat, She hasn't seen this thread yet but I know she will be very thankfull for all your efforts. She has certainly watched a few that I've spent hours on just end up in pieces. I know she'll be pleased to have anything from Pat B. I won't tell her yet who she's receiving from. ;)
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Keenan I almost didn't say anything but I couldn't hold my tongue. ::) I appreciate your help and insite with this bow. I am gonna try to repair it and if successful and I'm certain it will be durable, I'll send it to her anyway. After all I pick out this stave after Marie showed me your PM to her about Lulyn's want list. For some reason I use these situations to work the most difficult staves. Sometimes they work out and sometimes not!
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;D ;D ;D I know she'll be delighted with it Pat. I know what you meanabout picking the hard ones. I think every time I go out for a wood harvest with Dave he draws my attention to the most twisted mangled tree around and sucker me in while he gathers the straight stuff. ::) Hope your repair works. We both have a tendency to root for the underdogs. ;D
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Pat, I am more bummed out by this news than I can say, I would have rathered it happned to me than to this Christmas bow. I don't know how this stave could have treated you so badly when it was looking so good. Especially when I assume it was not pushed in the draw weight or draw length departments. That she was for a special person makes it even worse. Hope you can save her. Kenneth
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I won't know til I try, Kenneth. A good winter project! ;)
Yeah, kind of bummed me out too but that's wood bow building! ::)