Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: snag on December 06, 2010, 08:38:52 pm
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(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u31/snag23/hazel001.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u31/snag23/hazel002.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u31/snag23/hazel003.jpg)
As you can see in the first picture the stave has a little reflex in one limb and deflex in the other. Since this is my first try at a selfbow I wasn't sure what to do so I just made a bow with what the wood gave me. I guess I could steam the deflexed limb...? What do you think as far as where I am with this now? Total rookie!
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Hey snag,
It looks to my old eyes that the limbs are wanting to get symetrical (when bent a little) just the way they are. Think if ya keep an eye on their symetry as ya tiller it should work good, like it is. If they get kitty-wampus (technical term :D) as ya go along you might want to heat correct at that time.....JMO
rich
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Looks like you could go either way with it, I think it would probably be fine as is but might be nicer if trued up a bit. I might get it to bending a little more and see what happens. Kenneth
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The right limb looks 1/3 longer than the left limb. ??? ...or it that my old eyes?
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Looks like you need to take a fair bit off the belly.
There's a few Hazel bows on my website (click the globe symbol under my username), it might give you some help.
Del
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One thing to be aware of with Hazle is that it is (very) weak in compression, so make your belly as flat and wide as possible and considder dropping a stiff handle section! Hazle make excelent bows (one of my fastest bows ever was hazle....WAS, because it crysalled). Also I would make the reflexed limb the upper limb, because of the tendency to make reflexed limbs weaker to conform to the tiller.
As someone else said...looks like you can scrape a fair deal more, it is in what I would call the floor tillering stage by now;-)
Good luck mate...I bet it will be a succes if you keep in mind to keep the belly flat and wide;-)
Cheers
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Also might want to use a shorter length of string for tillering ;)
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Thanks for the input guys. Being a rookie and knowing how I like to hurry and get things done this has been a challenge..."to go slow"! I think I'll stick just tillering it with it's natural shape and see how it comes along like Half Eye said. When you say put a "short string" on it, does that mean a string of the length you would use to actually shoot it with? Or do I use a string the length of the bow? Sure is fun.
Pat, you had me second guessing myself...they are 1/2" difference. But in the pictures they sure don't look like it.
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It does look more than just a 1/2" .
Would you mind to messure it for us from the ends to the center of the handle ?
acker
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I use a string that's about as long as the bow is - maybe a couple of inches extra. Flemish loop on one end, timber hitch on the other.
You only want to use a shorter string when your ready to brace the bow.
That hazel's got some nice character to it! Hope to try it some day.
Keep us posted ;)
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30"X30.5", middle of handle.
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:)
Thank you snag .
What is your draw length and which drawweight should the bow gonna have ?
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My draw length is 28.5" and I would love it to come in at 50+#. But I don't know anything about how to achieve that. I need to put up a matrix board to check it as I tiller it. I don't know if I'll be able to make this wood bend to 28" and still keep the poundage up. With this stave I'm just trying to make a functional bow I guess. This is a learning experience. I figure if I can make a few that are successful I'll pull out the osage or yew staves I have and see if I can make a hunting bow.
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If you want 50# at 28" on a Hazel bow that short I think you will need it to bend through the handle.
(Probably need heat treating the belly too)
Del
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I split a 75" long osage stave the other day. I think I can get 3 bows out of it. What is the minimum back width I should go if I am wanting a 50#-55# bow?
I did some more scraping up near the fades to get more bend in the limbs on this hazelnut bow. Should I work the bow (draw it) 20 or 30 times each time I take some wood off? Or should I just pull it and let it stay drawn for some time?
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I used to subscribe to the common notion that you need to exercise a bow a lot between wood removals. But now I just bend a bow enough to determine where I need to take more wood off. I find that I end up with a lot less set doing it that way.
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That's good to know Gordon. Thank you.
This morning before work I scraped more off near the handle and through the fade outs and have it bending more near the handle. I get 35#@ 16". Do I just continue taking wood off, keeping in mind to retain a proper arch, until I reach my draw length of 28"? At that point I guess I check the draw weight and see if I will need to heat treat the limbs to attain higher poundage...?
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I'd get a short string on it as soon as possible. Then I would fix any tiller isues that show themselves when the bow is at brace. Then I would begin drawing it an inch at a time until one of the following occur: 1) the limbs begin to take set or 2) a problem with the tiller begins to show or 3) you hit your target draw length
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Good advice Gordon, but wouldn't it be good to also include 4) you hit your target draw weight?
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well, we finally lured you in ;D looks like you have a good start. where is your center of the stave in relation to the placement of the handle? I agree with the others in that it looks like the bottom limb is way shorter than the top. good advise from gordon, get the short string on it and start tillering toward your intended draw. keep posting pics of your progress.
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Cameroo,
As long as the bow is not taking any set I don't worry about the final draw weight until I get within about 2" of my target draw length. If I've done everything right, it is then just a matter of a few long and even scraps to hit my weight and the particular tiller that I want.
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Cameroo,
As long as the bow is not taking any set I don't worry about the final draw weight until I get within about 2" of my target draw length. If I've done everything right, it is then just a matter of a few long and even scraps to hit my weight and the particular tiller that I want.
WOW, You have a magic scraper that can put weight back on??? ::) ;D ;)
Del
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I usually try and hit the weight I want ,say 50lbs at 18/20 inches then try and maintain the proper tiller as I move along ,inch by inch till I hit the draw length I want. Never pulling over that weight as I move along. I don't exercise as much as some but I do pull back out to where I was in between each scraping,8 or 10 times anyway. I also try and get a shot brace as soon as I can.
For long string I use string just long enough to go from tip to tip. As soon as I get the tips moving 8 or 10 inches I low brace it. When I get 12 or 15 inches of draw at low brace I get it to full brace and move on from there,long string and low brace won't look the same as full brace. :)
Pappy
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Juniper, you guys were looking like you were having too much fun! Just had to give it a try. I really appreciate all the help I've received so far.
Looking at the pictures of this bow it is kind of interesting. The first pic looks like the limb on top (which is actually the shorter limb or bottom limb) looks longer. The next two pics the other limb (the one without the knot) looks longer...? Then you look at the one Acker posted the measurements on and B looks longer than A. Just to clear this up I should lay a tape next to the bow on the floor and take a picture.
I placed the center of the bow 1" lower than the top of the 4" handle. Does that make sense? It has a 4" handle section and the center is 1" from one side, or the top limb side.
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WOW, You have a magic scraper that can put weight back on???
I wish! :D
If I do everything right, a bow should be properly tillered and about 5-10 lbs over target weight by the time I'm within 2 inches of my target draw length. Then it is just a matter of evenly removing wood to hit the weight I want. If I'm still fixing things and messing around with the tiller at this point, the bow is likely to come in under weight and with more set than I like. That's all I'm trying to say.
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(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u31/snag23/bow32001-1.jpg)
Here is the bow drawing to 19". It is at 30#. What do you think so far?
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u31/snag23/bow32002.jpg)
The bow is 61" long, so center is 30.5". The handle is 4" in length, with the top of the handle
at 1' above center.
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Snag, just a bit more bending close to the fades out to mid limb. Is your handle bending? I've seen now that a lot of experienced bowyers, like Gordon, are not exercising between scraping sessions. My draw length is 26 in. If I want 50# I try to get the tiller right asap (LOL, right!) then get the weight to 40#ish at 20 inches and keep removing wood until I get 50# at 25 in. I work into 26 in as I shoot. I always exercise 20-30 times after each session to let the changes register. I'd rather have them register when I am in control than after the bow is tillered and I am wondering why the bow seems so light all of a sudden. To each his own. My bows are pretty much broken in when they come down from the tree for the final time. :) Jawge
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George, the handle isn't bending. Do I need to thin it from the belly side? I was hoping to keep some depth for a good fit in the hand. Maybe I won't be able to do that with this bow??? I haven't exercised it much between scraping. I scrape a little, then put it on the tree, scrape some, back and forth. But I understand what you mean about being broken (hard to type that word in relation to making a selfbow! haha) in when you are done.
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Well I worked on it a bit more this morning before going to work. Work sure gets in the way of fun! I have thinned up the handle a bit to get some bend there. At 21" draw it is at 35#. How do you know if a bow will continue to bend or break?! I just don't understand how I will be able to know when I need to stop???? When I pulled it to 21" it felt like it could go more. But I guess I am just scared to try...haha
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you need to get a short string on that. Don't go any farther with the long string.
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Should I brace it a few inches? The string on the bow in the picture can be shortened.
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Using a long string gives a falsely high reading of poundage (due to the wonders of geometry). You need to get a short string on and carefully get it to braced height.
To answer you other question, you stop pulling it back when you get to your target draw weight, your target maximum draw length or it breaks whichever comes first.
It is an act of faith in the wood and your skill really, you need to 'get your eye in' when it comes to judging the curve of a bow.
If you have any doubt stop and think and check. My personal preference is to spread the curve over as much bow limb as possible, this spreads the load and should give maximum bend before break.
I'm sure every one of us gets very nervous on thoes last few inches of tillering, and we've all had 'em go BANG...
If you don't have faith, you'll just end up with a short drawing low poundage bow.
That's one reason why you should have a target draw length and weight in mind when you start, but of course it needs to be chosen according to the stave, it's no good wanting 60# at 32" out of a 55" Hazel stave.
Del
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snag, I was just making an observation. Narrowed bending handles are harder to tiller so thats ok unless uyour bow is unussally short for your draw length. Goodness. You must feel like Cinderalla. LOL. "Get that short string on there!" "Take more wood off the belly!" That's good though. I wish I had this collection of world class bowyers to help me when I started. :) Jawge
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I've seen now that a lot of experienced bowyers, like Gordon, are not exercising between scraping sessions.
It's not that I don't pull on the limbs at all after removing wood, but only as far and enough times to determine if and where I need to remove more - 4 or 5 times is usually sufficient for this.
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When you do brace the bow the first time don't pull the string back initially. Sight down each limb of the braced bow and make sure there are no obvious flat or hingy spots and that the bend in both limbs are reasonably well balanced. Remove wood to fix any problems, brace the bow again, exercise lightly (just a few very short pulls) and repeat until the bow looks good at brace. A lot of set happens when folks get too aggressive on the first brace.
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(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u31/snag23/654.jpg)
Well I have been using the Gizmo and taking wood off just on the high spots and on the fade outs. The right limb, last 6"-8" is getting really thin, about 1/2" or less. So I narrowed the limb down a bit. Still not bending as much as I think it should. Do I keep narrowing it a little at a time? The other problem is the poundage is going down...25# @ 19". This will definitely be a kids bow by the time I'm done. Looking back on this process it is kind of frustrating to think I had quite a bit of wood and now it's under weight and not tillered...I thought I was doing what I should do with the gizmo and stuff....just not turning out. Sure hope the next one turns out better...?
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Looks good to me. I like to leave the last 6" of the tips stiff anyway. Use the right limb for the bottom and go shoot it...unless you are still at 19". looks longer than that to me. I believe you can temper the belly of hazelnut and that plus any backset you add at the time will add a few extra pounds.
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Pat, I had planned on the left side being the top limb. I have drawn it to 21" on the tree.
Should I keep trying to gain draw length on the tree by pulling it a little each day? I guess
one of the things I just don't understand is how do you determine how far you can pull
a selfbow? If this bow is 60" long and if the bend stays consistant as I draw it can I keep
pulling it to 26"?
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I can easily get 28" from a 60" bow so this one should be OK going to 26". If the limb is bending well at 19" go to 20" or 21". If it is bending well there go a little farther. Take it slow and exercise it well but as long as it is bending well you can go all the way out to your full draw target.
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Thank you Pat for your help. I will take it slow as I try and gain draw length.
David
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There is no time limit to tillering a bow. I've seen guys that can make a shootable bow in an hour or less. I don't recommend this, especially for a relative newby but as long as it is bending well keep on keeping on! ;)