Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: bubby on December 12, 2010, 11:06:19 pm
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Their just starting to include archery at the rendezvous around here and am getting lot's of people spouting of lot's of rules about bows, arrows and such. Is there a standard to go by that I can link on to, got one guy saying ya can't use cane arrows 'cause it's not native to U.S. I know the Hupa up here used reed for arrows, thank's Bub
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You cant please every one so you have to please yourself.
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i personally think rules suck. do what feels right to you and have fun. i have shot bows i carved from saplings with a chunk of rock and i have shot glass recurves and compounds that cost more than my first 3 cars combined. i like shooting but hate when somebody tells me i should try this or my primitive arrows arent really primitive because i used fake sinew. i had a guy who was picking my primitive gear apart one day and he ended by saying, " you should hook up with this guy jamie from ct. , he makes bows with stonetools. " i said " yeah , i'll do that " and walked away. anyways im done ranting , have fun, shoot straight, eat good . peace ;D
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i personally think rules suck. do what feels right to you and have fun. i have shot bows i carved from saplings with a chunk of rock and i have shot glass recurves and compounds that cost more than my first 3 cars combined. i like shooting but hate when somebody tells me i should try this or my primitive arrows arent really primitive because i used fake sinew. i had a guy who was picking my primitive gear apart one day and he ended by saying, " you should hook up with this guy jamie from ct. , he makes bows with stonetools. " i said " yeah , i'll do that " and walked away. anyways im done ranting , have fun, shoot straight, eat good . peace ;D
Now that's funny :D :D Jamie from Ct. :D :D :D
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i personally think rules suck. do what feels right to you and have fun. i have shot bows i carved from saplings with a chunk of rock and i have shot glass recurves and compounds that cost more than my first 3 cars combined. i like shooting but hate when somebody tells me i should try this or my primitive arrows arent really primitive because i used fake sinew. i had a guy who was picking my primitive gear apart one day and he ended by saying, " you should hook up with this guy jamie from ct. , he makes bows with stonetools. " i said " yeah , i'll do that " and walked away. anyways im done ranting , have fun, shoot straight, eat good . peace ;D
I sure would like to meet that Jamie feller. ;) I agree, rules suck.
Bubby, Tell the guy that said you can't use cain that black powder was invented in China so he can't use it here.
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I knew I wasn't the only one that thought that way, great come back Justin
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...and there is native cane in North America. Just ask the chain male clad Spaniards about their eary trips to Florida! Our native cane is Arundaneria and we have 3 species, tecta(swirch cane), gigantia(river cane) and appalachiana(hill cane). Native cane was used as the original primitive arrows in North America along with hardwood shoots and split out shafting.
Some archery shoots allow plastic nocks and field points but with some it is self nocks and primitive points(not broadheads).
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It's funny we just went through rules for primitive class here in England. I know rules suck but there are always some rules in everything when you start competing. I mean would you think a plastic recurve should compete against a wooden bow? Be a pointless competition if anything could be shot in primitive class.
If you're just shooting and not adding up scores then no rules are needed!
But if you are seeing who is the best shot on the day, even just for fun, you surely have to have some rules.
Going through the process just showed me how complicated it can get. Plastic nocks or self nocks? Synthetic string or natural? A multi laminated bow is not a primitive bow, ah but what about the horn, sinew, and wood asiatic bows, they're laminated. An ancient bow but can you shoot it in primitive? Much, much discussion later and a comprimise set of rules were formed for NFAS clubs.
We finally settled on a long set of rules that covered all the points/queries/niggles that came up.
You won't like it in America as arrow rests/ cutouts are not allowed and arrow must be shot off hand. Apparently there is no evidence that any old civilizations used them and it is a fairly 'modern' idea made in America? We have a class here called American Flat Bow AFB which does allow that but it ain't classed as primitive.
PV Class NFAS
A Primitive bow is a bow made using natural materials only, although synthetic glues, finishes and string may be
used in its construction. A cable-backed bow may include a natural or synthetic tensioning cable running along the
back.
A bow that conforms to the NFAS Longbow class definition may not be used in Primitive class.
Crossbows may not be used in Primitive class.
The bow must be free of stabilisers, sights, or other features which could be used as a sight, such as deliberate
marks, bindings, or decoration.
A primitive bow may not include a cut away arrow pass or arrow shelf. No form of arrow rest may be added to the
side of the bow. Arrows must be shot off the hand.
The bowstring may be of different colours as long as the coloured strands run continuously and evenly throughout
the string's length, but the centre serving must be of one colour. Synthetic and natural string materials may be used.
One nocking position is permitted (which may be indicated by nocking points both above and below the arrow).
Brush buttons and silencers are permitted but no other knots or attachments (in addition to the string serving) that
could be used for sighting or location purposes are allowed.
No additional vibration dampeners are allowed on the handle section or limbs of the bow.
One anchor point must be maintained throughout the shoot. Any form of hand loose may be used including
Mediterranean, two finger, pinch, thumb ring etc. No draw-checks of any kind are permitted on the bow.
No form of release aid is permitted.
Arrows shafts must be of natural material, fletched with feather. Nocks to be self nocks or reinforced with natural
material. Plastic taper nocks may not be used.
No archer may refer to any memoranda which could in any manner be a means of improving his/her score
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Seems pretty primitive to me. ' Frank
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It's funny we just went through rules for primitive class here in England. I know rules suck but there are always some rules in everything when you start competing. I mean would you think a plastic recurve should compete against a wooden bow? Be a pointless competition if anything could be shot in primitive class.
If you're just shooting and not adding up scores then no rules are needed!
But if you are seeing who is the best shot on the day, even just for fun, you surely have to have some rules.
Going through the process just showed me how complicated it can get. Plastic nocks or self nocks? Synthetic string or natural? A multi laminated bow is not a primitive bow, ah but what about the horn, sinew, and wood asiatic bows, they're laminated. An ancient bow but can you shoot it in primitive? Much, much discussion later and a comprimise set of rules were formed for NFAS clubs.
We finally settled on a long set of rules that covered all the points/queries/niggles that came up.
You won't like it in America as arrow rests/ cutouts are not allowed and arrow must be shot off hand. Apparently there is no evidence that any old civilizations used them and it is a fairly 'modern' idea made in America? We have a class here called American Flat Bow AFB which does allow that but it ain't classed as primitive.
PV Class NFAS
A Primitive bow is a bow made using natural materials only, although synthetic glues, finishes and string may be
used in its construction. A cable-backed bow may include a natural or synthetic tensioning cable running along the
back.
A bow that conforms to the NFAS Longbow class definition may not be used in Primitive class.
Crossbows may not be used in Primitive class.
The bow must be free of stabilisers, sights, or other features which could be used as a sight, such as deliberate
marks, bindings, or decoration.
A primitive bow may not include a cut away arrow pass or arrow shelf. No form of arrow rest may be added to the
side of the bow. Arrows must be shot off the hand.
The bowstring may be of different colours as long as the coloured strands run continuously and evenly throughout
the string's length, but the centre serving must be of one colour. Synthetic and natural string materials may be used.
One nocking position is permitted (which may be indicated by nocking points both above and below the arrow).
Brush buttons and silencers are permitted but no other knots or attachments (in addition to the string serving) that
could be used for sighting or location purposes are allowed.
No additional vibration dampeners are allowed on the handle section or limbs of the bow.
One anchor point must be maintained throughout the shoot. Any form of hand loose may be used including
Mediterranean, two finger, pinch, thumb ring etc. No draw-checks of any kind are permitted on the bow.
No form of release aid is permitted.
Arrows shafts must be of natural material, fletched with feather. Nocks to be self nocks or reinforced with natural
material. Plastic taper nocks may not be used.
No archer may refer to any memoranda which could in any manner be a means of improving his/her score
It seems a little arbitrary to me the way those rules were set up. You specify what the string must look like but allow a synthetic backing on a "primitive" cable backed bow. ???
By the way, a lot of us Americans prefer to shoot off the hand, even if we allow others the choice.
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You're right Justin
What rules are right in a primitive bow competition? They were not come to arbitarily We did it by a democratic system and it took months, so there may be a few anomilies, but not many I think. Most of us agree with most of it, not all, but most of it. :P
I haven't seen a self made cable backed bow here, but the thinking behind it was if you allow synthetic string on a 'normal' bow how can you fairly disallow it on a cable backed. The idea was to be as inclusive as we could to encourage more and younger folk to take up bowmaking, without losing the primitive ethos. Many people didn't want synthetic string at all but we decided it was more inclusive than the specialisation required making an authentic cable backed bow.
As I said when it comes to making rules, for competition only, it turns out not as simple as it seems.
As the arrow pass/rest seems to be a modernish addition and AFB (American Flat Bow) already have their own class to compete in, where they allow glass bows and all, it was decided not to include it in primitive class. Remember this is only classified in a contest. Other times we all shoot what we want.
We had so many heated discussions over these rules over the months that I'm glad it's over ;D
I only posted this here to show how our NFAS PV rules came about.
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They are about the same as we used at the IBO Trad. world except for the No rest thing we were trying to get away from the lam bow but there is no way to do it and call it primitive class,we thought about a just selfbow class but then what do you do with the laminated[non glass] bows.It gets to be to many classes.I may pass your rules along and see what they think about them,we will probably take out the no rest and self nock part, It is already wood or cain but you can use a plastic nock. :)
Pappy
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We had so many heated discussions over these rules over the months that I'm glad it's over ;D
Isn't it funny how deciding on rules of competition can be as much of a contest as the contest. 8)
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That is a fact Justin. ;) ;D ;D ;D You ant going to please everyone no matter what you do,so we just try and please the bulk of the folks and deal with the rest case at a time. :)
Pappy
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Having been through this a time or two also, sometimes you just have to put the horse in front of the cart. Make a class, make specific rules and don't alter the rules for anyone. I know this sounds harsh, but the ones that usually complain that they can not shoot in a specific class is because there is something the have that is a benefit to them in the class. The ones that walk away, will find a way to shoot in another class and the ones that shoot using the rules you decide, will be more competitive and enjoy it more among themselves....and guess what....they eventually tell others. Don't' be afraid to make some rules that will fit the majority of the new class and stick to it. Most of the problems classes get out of hand, is because at some point, someone, somewhere bent the rules.
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The bow must be free of marks, bindings, or decoration.
The above quoted is the bit of that rule I don't get and I also live in England.
Presumable they are trying to avoid anyone using aiming marks but why bother? Early primitave
bows contained decoration and bindings, and who's to say primative man/woman did not
use marks on the stave for aiming references.
Just my opinion of course!
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I shoot what I shoot no matter who I'm shooting with or what that are shooting. If my stuff doesn't qualify it doesn't matter because I don't compete...except with my self. I buy a score card at each shoot I attend to help support the sponsors but I'm practicing for hunting season and I shoot to kill not score!
I know you need rules(unfortunately)but I'd say keep them as simple as possible. Someone is always gonna complain no matter what. ::)
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Starting to sound like a bunch of compounder. Just kidding
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I agree. Too many rules in life already and if I ever end up like a compounder you can shoot me ;D
Really only joking, compounders are still archers and we should all shoot what we want.
I kind of agree with you Gary mac,
Insert Quote
The bow must be free of marks, bindings, or decoration.
The above quoted is the bit of that rule I don't get and I also live in England.
Presumable they are trying to avoid anyone using aiming marks but why bother? Early primitave
bows contained decoration and bindings, and who's to say primative man/woman did not
use marks on the stave for aiming references.
but I remember this one and it doesn't say you can't have decorations or bindings it says you can't put on deliberate marks decorations or bindings to use as sight aids.
Obviously cleverly placed decorations would be very hard to monitor (and who would bother to check, I wouldn't, but then I'm not as pedantic as others I think).
When I brought up this very point Gary, I was told that although primitive man/woman Might have used sight marks you have to prove they actually did. I was dead in the water :(
These discussions can go on for ever, and I don't mind if they do, but as we found when forming them you can end disappearing up your own fundament. ::)
I just like shooting my bow too much to get involved in rewriting the NFAS rules ; ) but am enjoying this discussion.
Isn't PA a great website and I've learnt a lot on here.