Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: 1776J on December 31, 2010, 10:29:19 pm
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Hello fellas.
Well, I've taken down the stave some, beginning to rough it in as can be seen in the photos below.
Of course I still have a ways to go till I get it into a closer roughed in design resembling the general design and layout.
I'm basing this on a Lakota Souix design, also an Ed Scott bow shape that I have become interested in shaping up.
I have THREE questions that I am contemplating regarding the bow....
1)
I will need to make this a reflex/deflex bow and turn up the stiff tips *(refer to the photo of the Ed Scott bow design, looking at the tip curves)*
So, in doing this, I find myself running into a bit of a problem. I have that knot cluster area that I have to figure out exactly how to handle.
I was examining the process at which ends are turned up via dry heat from a heat gun and was trying to judge how long the ends are from the beginning of the bend (reflex) to the end of the tips. After looking closely
at a video online of Ed Scott bending the ends, looking at the size of his thumb placed on the stave when he bends it, it appears that this area (from start of bend to bow tip) seems to be around about 12" -13" inches?
Of course I'm using this video on youtube as a reference point for working this stave up....hence the measurements and questions.
Look at these photos of the limb area with the knot cluster,... where should I begin the bend of the reflex here? Don't want to jeopardize the bow due to a lack of knowing how to handle this area!
**(Sorry, that should read "reflex" not "refles" in photo below!)**
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3195.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3196.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3203.jpg)
2)
The bow stave has a slight twist in it and the side bend.
a) At what point do I want to start to straighten these out?
Now, at this stage of having roughed it in, or later, after I have roughed it in more, more towards the tillering stage? (or will that "twist" just come out on its own "during" tillering?)
b) Do I want to fix both the twist AND the side bend at the SAME time, or which would I want to fix first and second?
(Does it even matter which is fixed first? Does it play a part in the outcome of the bow? If so, why? How?)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3206.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3194.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3199.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3202.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3200.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3198.jpg)
3)
At what point will I want to put in the reflex on the ends/tips?
I'm thinking earlier, rather than later. I've seen Ed Scott do it right after roughing out the bow (thinner than what I have here of course, but still MUCH thicker than a stave worked up to the tillering stage!!)
This way I'm thinking, if there are any thin or hairline cracking that appear in the outer layer of the belly by chance, I'll just shape it down "past" that affected ring or "rings??" to unaffected rings?
What do you fellows do when working on a bow such as this one's design? I know there's more successful ways to do this than just one!
***(For reference,...a youtube Video of Ed Scott's working up a stave while it is still pretty thick)***
(NOTE)*** He mentions in the video that he bent this piece of wood while it was still "green" and not dried out. To compensate for a dried piece of Osage that's been dry for about 2 yrs, (which is my stave here), would I want to still use dry heat with the heat gun, OR, try putting in some moisture bu spraying it with a spray bottle and heat it,.. or make makeshift steam box over the stove with a large pot and makeshift tent with the limb inside of it? (or any other successful idea??)
- Link to video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgNm2TxrqFY&NR=1
The style and profile of bow that I'm looking to resemble when all is said and done.
Bow will be 58" long, 50-55# at 27" draw length.
*(photo references below, thanks to Ed Scott)*
(http://www.edscott.us/sites/default/files/images/Osage_Owl_Bow_with_Quiver.colorbox.JPG)
(http://www.edscott.us/sites/default/files/images/Osage%20Sinew%20WaterMoccasin%20Owl%20Bow%20Strung.colorbox.JPG)
Thank you very much for the help in advance....
and Have a VERY Happy New Year! ;)
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looks like yor goimf for a mollie style or holmie style bow
wait for rich aka halfeye to chime in
hes probably one of the best with that design of bow on this site
as far as beding that wood,there are many guys here much more qualiied thani to help with that
but if it was mime i would get it a little closer to floor tiller if nit completly floor tillerd
then use dry heat and a form and take the lateral bend out first
then i would work on the twist by heating and placing wedges a needed and clamp to form to counter the twist
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I remove a lot more wood before I heat straighten. I get the limbs to about 3/4" thick and then use the heat gun. Less wood = less time heating.
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I remove a lot more wood before I heat straighten. I get the limbs to about 3/4" thick and then use the heat gun. Less wood = less time heating.
I was figuring less wood=less heating, but on the other hand,...
when do I want to put the reflex and deflex into it?
I'm thinking not to far from where I'm at now so that if I get little cracks in the belly as its bent (which I've heard and read is common) then I'll be able to take down the wood into a good ring/layer on the belly, past any hairline cracks, etc.
What's your thoughts fellas on when to put the reflex and deflex into the bow? Like I said I'm thinking early on rather than later on??
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Depending on the stave but generally after floor tillering(getting each limb tip to move 4" or so with even bending limbs) and sometimes also nearer final tiller. With too much wood you have to get the wood hotter thus a better chance of checking as any residual moisture leaves. The closer you are to final shape the less heat needed and corrections are more effective.
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Oh ok,.. thank you Pat.
I'm taking notes! ;)
At the point where I have it bending that much, won't it be pretty thin by then,... with a 58" stave?
Just don't want to get it to thin then have to take off to much wood "IF" thin cracking show up on the outer ring on the belly, ya know?
Are thin cracks on the belly commonly seen after bending?
If not, why would they show up generally?
....not enough heat?....to dry, lack of needed moisture?....to tight/drastic a bend?
Are there any calculations for how tight a bend relating to the thickness of the wood being bent? (just generally speaking, of course it all depends on the wood, or its dryness factor I'm guessing?)
Thanks!
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?
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At floor tiller your bow should be way over draw weight. Actually the thinner the wood the less chance if it cracking. Less stress on tension and compression side. If you are heat bending a tight radius there is a chance of the belly cracking across the grain. Again, the thinner the better. Also if you take the belly down to one solid ring just like the back there is less chance of splintering.
I really think you are over thinking the whole process and you are trying to walk before you crawl. The bow design you have choses isn't an easy design to master. Maybe you should start with a simple bow design, learn proper tillering and how wood works then when you have that figured out go for whatever design you fancy.
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At floor tiller your bow should be way over draw weight. Actually the thinner the wood the less chance if it cracking. Less stress on tension and compression side. If you are heat bending a tight radius there is a chance of the belly cracking across the grain. Again, the thinner the better. Also if you take the belly down to one solid ring just like the back there is less chance of splintering.
I really think you are over thinking the whole process and you are trying to walk before you crawl. The bow design you have choses isn't an easy design to master. Maybe you should start with a simple bow design, learn proper tillering and how wood works then when you have that figured out go for whatever design you fancy.
Actually, I "did" work on an osage piece I had here a while back (last month I had a small stave, long story,..don't ask).
I simply didn't share it right away due to a little bit of insecurity till I got a decent ways into it before deciding to share (which I didn't at the time)
I found that learning to tiller properly wasn't very hard, (as I was hoping) however, working much to late one evening I made a blunder and had made a gouge with a rasp (don't ask me how I managed it!!??),
didn't catch it, and when I drew it back the one end snapped. When I looked at the area I pulled a Homer Simpson (with a slap to the forehead) :P
So, after having read, read, and read some more on tillering, I pretty much took my time, went slow (except for that one late night) and got a nice tiller going (before that late night "oops"!) I still had more tillering work
to do as can be seen in the photo below, but it had been coming along nicely.
I had tried with it to bend the tips, (see makeshift jig I put together) but did not actually intend to pull the tips to bend them to that actual radius, but rather used the round pvc ends to only give me a good round, solid surface to work with.
I got small cracks AND the thing is, I had already taken the bow's limbs down quite a ways,... TO MUCH as I didn't have enough wood left to work out those tiny hairlines that appeared.
Hence all my cautiousness and most likely an over-abundance of questions and as you mentioned, quite possibly a bit of "over-thinking" bending the ends.
I'd rather over think it at this stage, find I was indeed over thinking it, and learn by having my concerns turn into nothing to worry about, than not as, not over think it, and find myself with an issue of any sort. ;)
Here's what I had a while back (before the death of it last month) ::)
(Yes, it is the kitchen,... I had better luck with taking photos there instead of my work area, just better lighting,.. I'm not actually working in my kitchen though! hahaha!)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/Firsttryosage.jpg)
Here is the make shift jig (just something I threw together on short notice) and the cracks I saw:
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3043.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3044.jpg)
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Those are compression fractures(frets, chrysals). They occur when wood is bent too much in one small area. The surrounding wood crushed the wood fibers at that point. It is not from the heat. It is from uneven tiller(most of the time).
I don't understand your jig either. Why are you trying to hold your stave in deflex?
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Why are you trying to hold your stave in deflex?
That was an error on my part when I threw that together.
I know "now" that didn't need/should have been done that way.
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PatB,...
in making a forming buck, would I simply be well of with a piece of 2"x8" or 2x10" pine from, say my local home depot? Thinking about an inverted "T" design for a bow forming buck.
I figured that would work out well for a form, but figured I'd out it out there first.
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It depends on what you plan to do. I mostly build selfbows so I use a form like this to straighten out limbs and add some reflex. It is a 2x4 cut to shape and mounted to a 2x6.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/forPA088.jpg)
For just workin limbs and adding reflex and heat tempering I use a simple, one limb form like this...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/forpa067.jpg)
and for putting in recurves I use one like this. I have others with more drastic recurves too
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/forDon010.jpg)
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I don't know where that first pic came from. Here is the form made from 2x4 screwed to 2x6..
Whell, photobucket is screwing up. I'll post pics of that form later.
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I don't know where that first pic came from. Here is the form made from 2x4 screwed to 2x6..
Whell, photobucket is screwing up. I'll post pics of that form later.
Oh ok,... yeah I'll be looking forward to those photos!
On the forms you have, you just work one limb at a time then,... interesting to see how fellows work. I've seen a few that were a two-limb form,... basically doing the whole bow at one time.
Nice C-clams as well,.... I like the old wing-nut ones like those as well, just picked up a few real cheap at an antiques store, almost no one buys old tools around here, a + for me! ;)
PS.
What is that first bow backed with?? Looks pretty neat! Zebra-like!
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and for putting in recurves I use one like this. I have others with more drastic recurves too
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/forDon010.jpg)
Pat,...
in this photo (or on any given bow you've put on this particular form) how long is the bent area from the beginning of the bend to the tip?
Also, what radius is put into that form? (or was it more of an off the cuff thing when you made the form, just making a curved that "looked right" and cutting it out?)
I'm curious about that as everyone has their unique approaches.
Thanks Pat.
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This is the form I meant to post before. I can adjust twist, bends and add reflex evenly.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/forDon006-1.jpg)
The bow was "Shere Kahn", backed with tiger striped tissue paper. I decided to make a take down out of her but couldn't figure out how to get her back together. ;)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/ShereKhanbroke001.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/ShereKhanbroke003.jpg)
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That shere was a beautiful bow Pat. :'(
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She still is. Just not functional! ;D :(
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She still is. Just not functional! ;D :(
I'm figuring you went to pieces at about the same time the bow did! :o
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I kicked myself in the butt for being so stupid. ::) The late night "oil" had a lot to do with it! ;D :-[
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This is the form I meant to post before. I can adjust twist, bends and add reflex evenly.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/forDon006-1.jpg)
Funny how the simplest of ideas work the best....
that 2x6 backing up the 2x4 is a great idea for its functionality for taking out twists, etc.
So you take out twists in staves on this before you get to putting in any "flex" of any sort into it with this setup then?
Speaking of the stave I'm working with, with its side bend. After taking it down more, taking a few more rings off of it on the belly and shaping it up on its sides,
when I got to heat straighten it, where do I want to heat it up, and clamp it, if let's say I placed it in a similar form as the one you posted you use for taking out twists, etc.?
Would I heat up the handle area first and take it in at that point, making the ends come into line? If so, how much area of the handle (center) area of the stave will I want to heat up? 4,6,8,10 inches of it,....or is it more of a case-by case
type of thing depending on the feel and the particular stave? How would you tackle this piece to straighten it before adding any reflex to it?
Thanks a million! :)
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Each stave is different and you have to consider each "malady" and deal with them in order of importance. If too much side to side bend you have to remove that before you cal do most other stuff. Sometimes it takes quite a few heating sessions to get the stave workable.
Generally I'll clamp the bow at the handle and work out one limb a little then the other, back and forth until the entire length is heated and clamped. Once it is removed from the form you have to see where you are again and go from there. Ideally it only takes a session or two to get a staver into working shape but sometimes it takes a lot.
This stave went from here...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TGbowtrade001.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TGbowtrade001.jpg)
to here...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TGbowtrade024.jpg)
a bunch of this...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TGbowtrade032.jpg)
to finally this. It took aquite a few weeks and lots of heating sessions.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TGtradebow015.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TGtradebow.jpg)
This was a bow I made last winter and spring for a TradGang Bow Trade. Joe Weed was the recipient. Here he is at full draw.
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Guys I really appreciate this thread. I know our buddy 1776 is asking a bunch of questions but I think there a re alot of us out here that have had some of the same and either failed to ask or just were too shy. Thank you Pat for your patience and instruction. The pictures are woth a thousand words. I have not done a lot of twist correction yet ( I have set those aside for now) The side to side stuff and tip alignment is all I have done and that does'nt require much more than some properly spaced blocks of wood and clamps and a heat gun. I think I want to make a jig like yours Pat that can do the right kind of reflex profile as well as the twist.
Question: if the 2x4 is 1-3/4" wide and you need mor movement than that to correct the twist or side to sidi, how do YOU handle it?
Danny
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You have to find the best starting place and deal with each problem at a time. Sometimes you can do two or 3 things at once but only if everything is OK to move on. With some srtaves you have to work only one limb at a time on a one limb form to get it where it needs to be. Sometimes just a straight 2x4 can be used to get your tip allignment close and the side to side bends managable then move on the the next problem.
Once you heat, straighten, untwist or whatever you really need to let it cool completely. I usually let a stave stay on the form until tomorrow. My basement satys around the low 40's this time of the year but I let things rest over night before I unclamp it. Then I check to see what the next step is and move on to it.
I did a whole build along with the bow about last winter and spring. Do a search to see the entire sequince of events.
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I just went back and found the original post on this bow. It is titled "Back in the Saddle" (by Pat B) and is on about pg. 47 or so in the "Bow" section. I did a complete build along on TradGang with this bow and thought I had here too but I guess not.
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I did a whole build along with the bow about last winter and spring. Do a search to see the entire sequince of events.
I will specifically look for your build along. I had done a quick search on some of the issues I've brought up, but wanted to share exactly that which "I" was dealing with.
As it was said above, I vastly appreciate the time you are taking to answer my questions, though they are many, but without the needed knowledge, we are striding towards failure.
I was always taught, "The only dumb question, is the one you don't ask!" ;)
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I just went back and found the original post on this bow. It is titled "Back in the Saddle" (by Pat B) and is on about pg. 47 or so in the "Bow" section. I did a complete build along on TradGang with this bow and thought I had here too but I guess not.
If by some chance you come across that on the TradGang site, I'd like to see it.
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On TradGang go to "Bowyers Bench", page 12, 11th post from the top. There are 37 pages in that thread. Only some are mine. There is a lot of good info there with others building selfbows, wood lambows and glass bows.
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Thanks Pat.
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Pat,
One very IMPORTANT thing I forgot to ask you in regards to heat bending is this...
If I apply vegetable oil (or any other oil) to the belly as I heat bend, will this affect the ahearing of sinew when I got to sinew it later on?
I had spoken to Mike Yancey a while back about this and he said he had issues with it at some point, so I thought I'd get a few opinions and techniques so I can best choose what direction to go.
Thanks much! ;)
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I've not had problems before. I do clean the oil off with acetone or alcohol before doing any sinewing. Most of the wood that has been oiled will be removed as you tiller the bow. The oil doesn't go very deep into the wood.
When you sinew a bow the sinew goes on the back. When I bend wood I put oil on the belly and sometimes the sides. Very little, but some oil does get on the back but a good degreaser should remove it.
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I've not had problems before. I do clean the oil off with acetone or alcohol before doing any sinewing. Most of the wood that has been oiled will be removed as you tiller the bow. The oil doesn't go very deep into the wood.
When you sinew a bow the sinew goes on the back. When I bend wood I put oil on the belly and sometimes the sides. Very little, but some oil does get on the back but a good degreaser should remove it.
Exactly,.. my thinking was...
"if the oil is applied to the belly, why would it affect the back where you will be placing sinew?" ???
I didn't understand what I had heard previously, but I'm green on experience then again.
I'll go the grease and bend rout then. ;D
Now to go make some forming bucks!
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Well, I took down the limbs to 3/4" inch thick right up to the fade areas on both limbs.
I left the center thicker to allot for the handle.
Took the forming buck I made, turned it on it's side and used the base to heat straighten the side bend, at least the first stage of straightening the side bend?
Used my trusty heat gun and a bit of vegetable oil on the belly and heated her up starting in the center and working out to the limbs on either side.
Here's what I have thus far,...I'm letting it stay in the jig until around this time tomorrow just to give it time.
In the first photo (top view) it appears that the center may need to be brought down after a shim on either limb in set in place?? I'm not "entirely" sure about it though, so any feedback in greatly appreciated.
I know these are only photos, and there are sometimes optical illusions created through the lens of a camera.
But,... here's what I have...
Thanks in advance! ;)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3214.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3216.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3217.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3218.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3222.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3223.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3224.jpg)
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After the straightening.... had to heat it up several times, but what an improvement from what it was!!! :)
(Sorry, I failed to take a photo of it after I pulled it from the straightening jig)
Anyway,....
I decided to throw her onto the forming buck to reflex the tips.
Went slow, took my time, applied a decent amount of vegetable oil now and then, (but not to much), and kept the heat gun moving now and then from the spot needing to bend, to and fro,
spreading out the heat evenly as possible. Just kept adding one c-clamp after another, but took it slowly!
Here's the set up as I went (used tin foil to keep the heat in and let it cool slowly....)
(The cat decided to check things out,.....the Lab couldn't be bothered!) :)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3231.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3235.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3236.jpg)
The bend after I removed the foil,....(I was pretty much trying to keep the last 3" stiff, that's the plan.)
of course it bent back just a bit after I removed the c-clamps, but it took fairly well.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3243.jpg)
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Well,..
gonna have to put this project aside,...
WE JUST HAD OUR LITTLE BABY BOY AT 5:10AM THIS SUNDAY MORNING!!!!!
WEIGHS 6 LBS., 3 OUNCES,....
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I'M IN COMPLETE AWE!,....
:o :o :o :) :) :) :)
Now for some serious sleep!!!
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8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) CONGRATULATIONS!!! I guess we'll let you slide for a while. :D
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Congratulations! Yep, better get some sleep...while you can! Before you know it you'll be building a kid's bow too.
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Wow, congratulations!!! Good priority call. There'll be time for bows in a bit. ;D ;D
George
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Thanks everyone!!!!