Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Pat B on March 15, 2011, 02:18:12 pm
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I have a white ash stave that is 75" long, about 3" square with the bark still on. This stave has been drying for 3 or 4 years, is very straight and with good growth rings. How much weight can I reasonably expect to get from this stave if my tillering goes well. I have only made one war bow(95#@30") and used a premium yew stave(68") for this bow.
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Its its american white ash then about 110lb is the heaviest ive seen, you could try heat treating to gain weight Nidrinir would be the best person on the subject.
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Thanks Ian for your input. I'll see what others have to say too.
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ask alanesq he has made tons of warbows out of ash. I think his highest one was 120#
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youngbowyer,
I believe that Alan uses or used European Ash which is a slightly different beast to American White Ash ans so will have different properties.
Craig.
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Should it be a true deep rounded belly or slightly oval with a flatter cross section?
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I know European ash tends to be slightly better than American white ash. But good European ash is capable of 120# I'd say. Maybe a bit more even. American ash can undoubtedly show large variations in density as well. So your best piece of American white ash might very well reach European ash. All I'm trying to say: ash can show large variations in density and strength.
Ash is excellent in tension, but not so great in compression. I'd go for a flattish belly and a crowned (or trapped) back. Monitor set closely as you tiller. When set dramatically increases, it's likely you're pushing the drawweight too much. Ash takes excessive amounts of set, rather than breaking. So when set kicks in by the time you're thinking "but I'm still miles away from my drawlength or -weight!" then you need to lower your drawweight. I'd rather have a 90# low set bow, than a 120# bow with 4" of set.
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Alan only used American ash
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more of a square cross section i would say. im excited to see what weight you can get out out this bow. This forum is dying, there are no bows being posted anymore! I'm currently working on a yew warbow, shooting for 70lbs.
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Ian,
Alan only used American ash
Yes you are correct and I was wrong, Alan states he used "kiln dried American Ash" on his Back Street Bowyer pages.
Funny that you would have thought that living in the UK European Ash would have been easier to come by.
Just goes to show.
Pat B,
Allan states that he has made a 120lb bow from "kiln dried American Ash" and that he believes this is about the limit. Have a look at his backstreet bowyer pages.
http://www.alanesq.com/longbow/bsb/The-Back-Street-Bowyer-262.pdf
Craig.
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Thanks Graig. Interesting reading. I'll have to study it a bit to see how much will sink in. ;D
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Pat,
Hope you don't get infected with Alan's methods, cannot say I fancy chasing a ring with a grinder equipped with a sander attachment. :o
Craig.
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Craig,
You can't argue with results. But, i agree, that's something I would never try. I've used a grinder with a sander attachment and it can tear through wood like nothing. One slip would ruin a bow.
Pat,
I've never worked with ash but from, what I've seen, good wood can get you pretty high draw weight (120# as said above). You no doubt have the skills to make a warbow but in my experience I'd say one of the hardest parts is getting good starting dimensions. I was always worried I'd start out with a log and never get there or start to small and end up under weight. If you get anything from Alan's site I'd say use his dimensions unless someone else recommends some. Other than that I can't wait to see how it turns out. ;D
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You'd be surprised how hard it is to get our own native wood, its cheaper for us to import from america than it is to get it cut in this country, that 120 that Alan made after a while the weight went down as crysles started to form, then he planed the belly off to make that 160lb bow with a belly of Americain white oak. I remember when I first met Alan at a shoot we started talking and realised we have both done the same thing Americain white oak with white ash back. you could call it convergent evolution.
With a perfect tiller and Heat treating you may get white ash to stay as a 120 but they do like to drop lb when they start to crysle.
About the planer he did say he wouldn't have bothered to make bows as much as he did if he didn't discover you could take down growth rings with a grinder he had a hard time using hand tools.
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Hi Ian,
You'd be surprised how hard it is to get our own native wood, its cheaper for us to import from america than it is to get it cut in this country,
You can take it that I am surprised. Over here in Oz its just the reverse virtually all of our wood is Australian. We can get imported woods mainly east asian woods used for decking, plus some others but they are few and far between, you generally have to go to specialist suppliers to the furniture trade etc.
My "local" supplier of such wood (120 km away) seems to have both American white ash (Fraxinus ameracana) and American white oak (Quercus alba) so may have to look at getting some and seeing how it goes.
Craig.
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As some allready have mentioned, ash can vary from average to excellent. The European ash is better than the american in average, but you may find good pieces of american ash just as easy as you find bad european ash. Look for ash who favors the late growth rings by as much as possible over the early growth rings.
Without heating the belly, I've seen ash ELB warbows successably made up to 130#@32". (Rare good piece of local ash, grown here by the lake Mjøsa).
With good and thorough heat treatment of the belly, I guess 170# from a good piece should be possible. Maybe more. (You've given me a quest on testing it's limit here :))
One of the most important things to know aout ash though, is how it likes to soak humidity like a sponge. Remember to add the closest to waterproof finish you can find. Humidity kills pondage in heavy bows.
With "malming" of the belly, I guess I may try to hit 200# with ash... But I'll note it in the back of my head for an experiment later. Right now I'm working on a 190# wytch elm snaky sapling bow for Joe Gibbs. I'll post it once it's done.
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Thanks for the info guys. This stave has nice even, relatively thick rings and is well seasoned so I guess it is up to the bowyer now! ;D This stave I've mentioned it actually now in transit to a young bowyer with high hopes with heavy bows. I'm sure he will do it proud! ;) 8)
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I look forward to the pictures
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i just wanted to let you guys know that i found out today that i am that young boyer Pat B was talking about. how would i go about heat treating the bell, im not sure if i should try it on this piece as i dont want to experiment with such a nice piece. one last question, what would be a good coating for it, ive only put linseed oil on bows so far
thanks for the suggestions that apparently were going to me, and again Pat, thankyou so much for giving it to me, and haveing the faith that i will be able to make a good bow out of it ;D
noel
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No danger in heat treating the belly. If you have access to a heat gun, that's the easiest way to heat treat, but allmost any source of dry heat will do. Cooking plates work perfect.
Keep the heat at a distance where it takes about 2 minutes to turn ash into a light brown colour. Repeat with the next area etc. until every inch of the belly has the same colour.
Try to oil it first, then add some wax later when the oil is dry. Different types of wax that are meant for waterproofing leather work fine. I use "haglöfs" or liberon finishing wax. Liberon also has this oil that work very good for wood.
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No danger in heat treating the belly. If you have access to a heat gun, that's the easiest way to heat treat, but allmost any source of dry heat will do. Cooking plates work perfect.
Keep the heat at a distance where it takes about 2 minutes to turn ash into a light brown colour. Repeat with the next area etc. until every inch of the belly has the same colour.
Try to oil it first, then add some wax later when the oil is dry. Different types of wax that are meant for waterproofing leather work fine. I use "haglöfs" or liberon finishing wax. Liberon also has this oil that work very good for wood.
i think i might just leave it without heat treating as the only way i would be able t heat it is a direct flame, either alcohol burner or propane torch and i think those might be too hard to control, if i had a heat gun i would try it though and ill check out those waxes
thanks
noel